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  1. #61

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    This is a facinating thread with wonderful, smart people giving great thoughts. The OP got what he needed so don't be concerned about a supposed derailment. OP is happy, now carry on wise chatters.

  2. #62

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Well and clearly put. It's cool how debating things like that can give you another person's perspective to consider. I'll give you a solid reason why the cannon is more culturally acceptable than an execution though - the former implies like, a WAY bigger explosion. It sort of justifies it.

    Now if they want to add a guy getting executed and exploding...I don't think I'd have any moral problem with that. The end justifies the means, if the end is awesome explosions.

    It's funny how the lines of acceptability probably only work within one culture, though...I imagine someone from a completely different background could go on POTC and be traumatized by completely different things than we might see.

  3. #63

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by aashee View Post
    This is a facinating thread with wonderful, smart people giving great thoughts. The OP got what he needed so don't be concerned about a supposed derailment. OP is happy, now carry on wise chatters.
    Asshee speaks wise words. I too find the discussion in here fascinating and intelligent and everyone is being very respectful of everyone else.

    And I have to admit, until reading through this thread, I never really thought about any of the scenes in Pirates with that much depth. I never really thought about the sexual undertones present, either real or perceived. I just went along for the ride and enjoyed the show. Because I think that anything can be interpreted in many ways, depending on the individuals background, values, personal experiences.... all of these things can affect the way we think about things presented to us.

    Carry on!




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  4. #64

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Well, let's leave the cannons alone and turn the corner.

    Look at poor Carlos, being tortured, that's right, tortured right before your eyes. Forget about that pantywaist waterboarding stuff, this is the real deal. Are you horrified? Nope, it's supposed to be funny, and the weird part is, it is funny. Good showmen just know how far you can go. Don't ask how it works; I can't explain this chemistry. Are you more inclined to tolerate torture after seeing that? Probably not. To torture someone yourself? No, probably not. If you were already a sadistic sicko who drowned cats for kicks all through junior high? Yeah, the Carlos thing is probably not good for you. You're the one laughing a little too hard in the back of the boat. For us normal people it's something we would NEVER do (but maybe, okay, a teensy weensy part of us would like to do, in a way...what am I saying? I'd never, NO, I'd never...well, maybe to that neighbor with the stereo and yappy dog, well no no no, that's TERRIBLE, I'd never...)
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by penguinsoda View Post
    Asshee speaks wise words. I too find the discussion in here fascinating and intelligent and everyone is being very respectful of everyone else.

    And I have to admit, until reading through this thread, I never really thought about any of the scenes in Pirates with that much depth. I never really thought about the sexual undertones present, either real or perceived. I just went along for the ride and enjoyed the show. Because I think that anything can be interpreted in many ways, depending on the individuals background, values, personal experiences.... all of these things can affect the way we think about things presented to us.

    Carry on!
    Yeah, I'd have to agree, and thank Darklady for sharing her opinion. It's great to see things from another point of view, when that point of view is so fleshed out and articulated so well. I only have two arguments, and those are:

    1.) Perhaps reading that much into it is taking something simple too seriously (not really an argument - the fact that it's not taken seriously is possibly a tresspass in itself)

    2.) Art shouldn't be changed to appease offended individuals, as it's meant to be an expression of the values and worldview of the creators (also not really a point of contention, since I don't think you're saying it should be changed)

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Well, let's leave the cannons alone and turn the corner.

    Look at poor Carlos, being tortured, that's right, tortured right before your eyes. Forget about that pantywaist waterboarding stuff, this is the real deal. Are you horrified? Nope, it's supposed to be funny, and the weird part is, it is funny. Good showmen just know how far you can go. Don't ask how it works; I can't explain this chemistry. Are you more inclined to tolerate torture after seeing that? Probably not. To torture someone yourself? No, probably not. If you were already a sadistic sicko who drowned cats for kicks all through junior high? Yeah, the Carlos thing is probably not good for you. You're the one laughing a little too hard in the back of the boat. For us normal people it's something we would NEVER do (but maybe, okay, a teensy weensy part of us would like to do, in a way...what am I saying? I'd never, NO, I'd never...well, maybe to that neighbor with the stereo and yappy dog, well no no no, that's TERRIBLE, I'd never...)
    Oh god, now I'm seeing everything in a veneer of horrible literal translations...what's up with the dude and the pigs, anyway? Do I really want to know?

  6. #66

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    Oh god, now I'm seeing everything in a veneer of horrible literal translations...what's up with the dude and the pigs, anyway? Do I really want to know?
    Well, if you're too poor to buy one, and too slow to catch one...there are options.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  7. #67

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Well, let's leave the cannons alone and turn the corner.

    Look at poor Carlos, being tortured, that's right, tortured right before your eyes. Forget about that pantywaist waterboarding stuff, this is the real deal. Are you horrified? Nope, it's supposed to be funny, and the weird part is, it is funny. Good showmen just know how far you can go. Don't ask how it works; I can't explain this chemistry. Are you more inclined to tolerate torture after seeing that? Probably not. To torture someone yourself? No, probably not. If you were already a sadistic sicko who drowned cats for kicks all through junior high? Yeah, the Carlos thing is probably not good for you. You're the one laughing a little too hard in the back of the boat. For us normal people it's something we would NEVER do (but maybe, okay, a teensy weensy part of us would like to do, in a way...what am I saying? I'd never, NO, I'd never...well, maybe to that neighbor with the stereo and yappy dog, well no no no, that's TERRIBLE, I'd never...)
    It is funny how that scene is amusing. What's doubly horrifying is the wife witnessing all this while a pirate summons someone to shot his screaming wife. I have too much fun on Pirates to really read into stuff.

    What's equally amusing is the Barbossa AA bugs me a hell of a lot more then any raping, murdering or city destroying. Go figure.

  8. #68

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    The creepiest thing on the whole ride has got to be the guy at the end who's holding up the drunken pirate with the flintlock pistol...he looks deLERIOUSLY happy to be in that unfortunate position. And...dear lord, the city's burning...the villagers' lives are ruined! This one event will traumatize them forever! And the pirates are SINGING about it! WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WITH THE DOG WITH THE KEYS IN HIS MOUTH! THEY LOOK HUNGRY!

    I am never going on that ride again. *shudder*

  9. #69

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    A few posters have mentioned/asked about the inclusion of female pirate AAs in the attraction.

    In Marc Davis' original concept art, Anne Bonny and Mary Read were actually included (I'm not sure if this was for our actual attraction - I think it was geared for the walkthrough). All of the male pirates were digging for buried treasure, and Anne and Mary were just watching from the sidelines with the captain (and the regular pirates looked pretty angry about it).

    The picture is entertaining but a sexist generalization about women doing hard labor, and in many ways I'm glad it didn't make it in. In all actuality, those two women were the cream of the crop in their day - it was when they were pregnant and were supposed to stay down below and not fight when their crew was captured (and they even went up to fight anyway! The rest of the crew was in a drunken stupor).

    Another concept art sketch (might have been Anne and Mary, not sure) were in a giant pile of treasure, and many elements of that sketch ended up in the grotto, but without them.

    It would be nice to have better female pirate representation, but I'm glad it didn't happen originally in many ways. I kind of doubt Disney would do anything of the sort now, with Jack Sparrow all over the place.

  10. #70

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapplewhipaddict View Post
    In Marc Davis' original concept art, Anne Bonny and Mary Read were actually included
    They did make it into the ride, they are on the wall by the turn at the top of the lift.

    As to the chase scene, one can imagine those women getting away. Even the skinny pirate looks like he could outrun the fat chick. Far more disturbing is the town major being tortured and nothing is implied or hidden. Now I'm not suggesting they remove the scene, I'm just saying it's way more disturbing than the original chase scene, and of course, nothing in Pirates can come close to the very disturbing scenes over in the Pooh ride.
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  11. #71

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Here ya go, perverts


    Not to get all off-topic on the direction this thread has taken, but I wanted to say thanks for posting this! This is a better quality image than the ones I've taken and been using to work on my own copy of the painting. Very helpful!

    (In case you care, you can see work-in-progress shots here, here and here. I'm not posting the images themselves because without the hair in place she's a little... exposed)

    Unusually and exceedingly peculiar and altogether quite impossible to describe...



  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Well, let's leave the cannons alone and turn the corner.

    Look at poor Carlos, being tortured, that's right, tortured right before your eyes. Forget about that pantywaist waterboarding stuff, this is the real deal. Are you horrified? Nope, it's supposed to be funny, and the weird part is, it is funny. Good showmen just know how far you can go. Don't ask how it works; I can't explain this chemistry. Are you more inclined to tolerate torture after seeing that? Probably not. To torture someone yourself? No, probably not. If you were already a sadistic sicko who drowned cats for kicks all through junior high? Yeah, the Carlos thing is probably not good for you. You're the one laughing a little too hard in the back of the boat. For us normal people it's something we would NEVER do (but maybe, okay, a teensy weensy part of us would like to do, in a way...what am I saying? I'd never, NO, I'd never...well, maybe to that neighbor with the stereo and yappy dog, well no no no, that's TERRIBLE, I'd never...)

    I am sooooo reluctant to chime in but ...... oh well.

    The original depiction of the pirate raid on the village had a deep resonance with me as a young child. It touched on the deep seated fear of chaos and made it somehow less scary.

    Bruno Betelheim (and others) suggest that children are well aware of scary issues of the day like rape, torture, murder, mayhem and utilize myth, fantasy and folk lore to manage that fear. (I had to access some old memory files to get that reference.)

    Despite trying to shelter my 3 year old son from 9/11 by turning off the tv and radio whenever he was around, one week later at a community fair my son went up to the fire truck on display and told a fireman all about how someone had flown a plane into a big building and all the firemen died inside - complete with physical renactment. I would swear that to this day he has never actually seen the news footage of the event, yet he continued to renact it for years with decreasing frequency over time.

    It was explained to us that the renactment was a form of processing that dealt with his anxiety and a natural reaction to the event.

    Back to POTC, the violence depicted in this ride, if real, would certainly be enough to horrify and terrify any grown person. I don't want to run across any real talking skulls anywhere for any reason. But the mythical, fantastical depiction answers a deep-seated need to manage the horror of war, rape, and torture. I laugh when my son runs through the house in a bathrobe with a miners helmet, Ugh boots, a Star Wars blaster and camoflauge backpack. I'll cry if I think of him in combat boots and real camo on his way to Iraq.

    Fantasy has a purpose and its not to glorify reality.
    Last edited by maximmom; 05-18-2008 at 06:35 AM.

  13. #73

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Cinnamon Toast and Tacos on the floor.
    Haha...God that's great. but on the floor or por favor?

  14. #74

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Lady View Post
    Long story short: she went through some tough times, but she came out a pirate in the end. From sex-slave to free sea-faring rogue. Pretty awesome triumph right there for a woman of her times. And the redhead in the painting is her, we talked about that in the beginning of this thread, didn't we? I can't even remember now.
    Since, for some reason, this topic no longer deserves its own thread for proper discussion (odd how these things work themselves out), I'll respond.

    If this fictitious history you have invented for the Redhead justifies the Auction scene, why not, then, just make up a similar scenario for the women being 'chased'? Here's one: the deleterious effects of a pirate lifestyle has left the scoundrels with poor stamina--the women outrun the pirates, and they lose interest--the women therefore escape being caught and kissed by the pirates. There. All justified.

    One can go to outrageous lengths to try to defend the alteration of the 'pirate chasing women' scene, but by doing so, one must acknowledge the torture of the town official Carlos, the sale of woman-flesh, and the wanton destruction of family homes and theft of personal property, and all these atrocities 'glorification'.

    It is hypocritical to see the 'outrageous' behavior in one scene, and ignore the others, IMO. Either they are all offensive, or none--if one's sensibilities are truly that delicate. Theft and vandalism is okay to show to childern? Torture? Slavery? I suppose as long as we aren't seeing men chasing women, the rest is excusable? By using the argument that this alteration is a matter of 'morality', it is seriously undermined by the existence of the other 'barbarous' elements that are allowed to remain (and even embraced as 'classic' vignettes).

  15. #75

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    The Dark Lady seems to think I find rape amusing and entertaining fare. My position, (which is either being consciously or unconsciously ignored) is what is being portrayed is no worse than any other of the piratical activities we are witness to. Why should ANY scene be left intact? POTC requires imagination to appreciate, as well as a willingness to see these actions as cartoonish, unrealistic, a parody--in fact it DEPENDS on this. Some people seem to lose their sense of fantasy selectively in this attraction, and I think it's a shame.

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