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  1. #76

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Agree, Swab.

    And while I tried to point this out earlier, the entire scene was actually a set-up for a joke--the fat woman chasing the scared pirate. The very nature of this elaborate set-up has been altogether ignored. Now the scene lacks the edge that made the ride great.

  2. #77

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Agree, Swab.

    And while I tried to point this out earlier, the entire scene was actually a set-up for a joke--the fat woman chasing the scared pirate.
    Excellent point.

    I never understood the desire to PC this stuff.

    The entire Disney universe - even when realistic - is often glossed over or an overly optimistic interpretation.

    Never mind the scenes of torture mentioned, the idea that the captain will murder his crew to keep the location of his treasure safe, war, arson, etc.

    Pirates have always been some what idolized - as many independents throughout history often are.

    The entire attraction is a bit of a whimsimcal view of pirates - and as you stated, the entire point of this set is to setup a gag about a less then helpless looking lady fighting back

    I also question the description Dark Lady poses about the redhead simply because of her demeanor in the auction scene. She could simply be being sultry to setup her meaning to manipulate the pirates. A 'willing' person is going to be given more freedoms then a scared one trying to run away. etc etc.
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  3. #78

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    As others have repeatedly struck the dead horse in my absence I will simply comment on something that was overlooked.

    While the Redhead may in fact eventually succeed, the question to pose is at what cost? What happened to her between the auction and the commission of the painting to turn her from fashionable lady of privilege to glorified sex icon of piracy? It is easy to say "She made it" and leave it at that but that would be taking the entire situation out of context. She was a survivor, but what she survived is likely something NO ONE would want to experience much less know. I feel that has been glossed over in an attempt to justify an auction while condemning a chase.

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  4. #79

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Agree, Swab.

    And while I tried to point this out earlier, the entire scene was actually a set-up for a joke--the fat woman chasing the scared pirate. The very nature of this elaborate set-up has been altogether ignored. Now the scene lacks the edge that made the ride great.
    So...where's the rape undertones in this part of the scene? Or does that conflict with some sort of ideology? I'm not trying to attack anyone, I'm just curious about how the full context of the scene is interpreted through that same lens. And yes, I consider this portion of the chase to be as important as its earlier converse. This is going out more to DarkLady than you, Steve. It's a role reversal in at least a single, if not more, sense.

    I would try to jump more into all this, but it seems like the ground has been pretty much covered by others. I'll have to go back and re-read to see if I can come up with anything of interest to add.

    Until then, I would echo Swab and Flynn about the interpretation of the Red Head and the painting and how that interpretation and how it's reached affects ALL of the ride.

    EDIT: Morrigoon, that painting is beautiful. Keep up the great work! Does it have its own thread?

  5. #80

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    They did make it into the ride, they are on the wall by the turn at the top of the lift.
    Yes yes I know...and in fact they're mostly covered up due to a stack of boxes that are used for handicapped access for evacuation.

    They're not really featured in the actual ride, which I think is what everyone was getting at.

  6. #81

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    I think we need an audio-animatronic of that pirate, if she's not the redhead in the auction - perhaps more fully dressed. They need some female pirates, like Anne Bonney and Mary Read. What say you?
    We wants the redhead!

    Have Anne Bonney and Mary Read always been painted near the queue of the ride? I only just noticed them last time I rode, and if they've been there forever I'll...well, I'll blame getting new glasses, that's what I'll do.
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  7. #82

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    WOW what a discussion. All over a charicature. I am aware that there is often a loose backstory to the rides that were really imagineered from the ground up,but I really see these things as those that any kid with an imagination would think up while playing pirates, cowboys etc in their back yard or school yard? Wait do kids do that anymore? If anything, that innocense/fun has been removed from rides like pirates by adding in Davy Jones and the like from the movies which now scare some of my kids where before they liked to ride POTC. Even making them PC (can anything really be made entirely PC?) taints them a little by drawing attention to something that the vast majority of people don't even notice. I love that painting, and the joke at my house is yelling to my wife...We Wants the Red Head!!(my wife is a red head) I can see everybodys point but it doesnt change the fact that POTC is one of the coolest things ever created.
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  8. #83

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    When I was a kid, it was the girls who would (horrifically) chase and try to kiss the boys, so I naturally found that scene confusing.
    I'm a bit older than you, but it was the same at my school. We even put on lip gloss, to make it MORE offensive to the boys we were chasing. And never caught.

    Just like the scene showed the men never catching the women.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Lady View Post
    My main point, that it's not all right to treat forced sexual contact humorously in front of a young audience...
    I just don't see ANY sexual contact. I see, or saw I suppose before it was changed, men chasing women, not touching them, and NEVER catching them. What it means to any individual has more to do with that individual's mind than anything else. I would have seen it having to do with kissing, since I knew that grownups liked that even though my fellow 2nd graders didn't. My son would probably think they are trying to tickle them. Hubby would just see it as a chase with nothing behind it... Others would see piracy and FUTURE forced sexual contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    My parents won't let my little sister watch Lilo and Stitch because they think the message advocates gay marriage
    I'm obviously not paying enough attention when that is on. Is there a gay marriage in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post

    Look at poor Carlos, being tortured, that's right, tortured right before your eyes. Forget about that pantywaist waterboarding stuff, this is the real deal. Are you horrified? Nope, it's supposed to be funny, and the weird part is, it is funny. Good showmen just know how far you can go. Don't ask how it works; I can't explain this chemistry. Are you more inclined to tolerate torture after seeing that? Probably not. To torture someone yourself? No, probably not. If you were already a sadistic sicko who drowned cats for kicks all through junior high? Yeah, the Carlos thing is probably not good for you. You're the one laughing a little too hard in the back of the boat.
    Despite my brain not liking getting way into symbolism, I actually take things quite literally, and see the facts of the scene rather than the fun. So those thoughts are in my head for quite a lot of the attractions at Disneyland (DCA doesn't trigger it in me). I have to stop thinking about them or else all enjoyment is sucked out of it for me. Hubby and I have a detailed bit of reasoning for how we can enjoy the movies of POTC, b/c Jack Sparrow is a "good" pirate who doesn't pillage but rather defeated a port without firing a single shot (as is said about him). Otherwise it's hard to enjoy them.

    But your post made me laugh.



    I do have one other thought, and that's you guys have WAY better hearing than I do! All I have ever heard in there is the Yo Ho song, and I know the AAs are talking, but I really have never (even as a kid as far as I remember) heard anything that any"one" is saying in that ride...

  9. #84

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by hobbitfeet View Post
    All I have ever heard in there is the Yo Ho song, and I know the AAs are talking, but I really have never (even as a kid as far as I remember) heard anything that any"one" is saying in that ride...
    Not even, "Carlos, don't be cheeeeken"?
    Or the much-mentioned and beloved, "We wants the redhead"?
    My new favorite is, "We are going to seenk your sheep!"

    Speaking of the Redhead, I think all the interpretations from Dark Lady, Lore and others are really interesting. IMNSHO, you can take what you want from it - some people see the Redhead as a strong woman, perhaps trying to up the bids and at least be bought by a successful pirate, or you can see her as just anothe rape slave on the auction block. Similarly, the painting might show the Redhead as an empowered free pirate (albeit one who can't afford a shirt and has LOST AN EYE!!!), or the portrait's commission might have gone something like this:

    Yer the artist eh? This way, matey...
    See me "wife" chained up in the corner? Well, you paint her nice, and make her look like a proper pirate, y'hear? Can't be havin' a woman aboard ship, don't you know, so this'll hang in me cabin to remind me what I got waitin' in port. Well, what I used to have, at any rate! HAR HAR! Which reminds me, make sure you paint her with her rigging done up nice and high, if you get my meanin'...
    To me, Disney attractions (and most themed attractions, I think) are all about horror, disaster, loss, and things just generally going wrong. HBG2 was especially insightful to bring the subject matter of the HM into play. POTC and the HM we've mentioned, but what about these:

    • Indiana Jones Adventure: Idolatry, skulls everywhere, giant snake attacks, fire/lava, magic idol attacks, imperialism

    • Big Thunder: Driverless runaway train, earthquake/cave-in, animals eating dynamite

    • Splash Mountain: A fox is going to eat you!

    • Snow White: Lost in the woods, evil witch, and oh yeah, your mom wants you dead!

    • Mr. Toad: Robbery, home invasion, totally unsafe driving, BEER, perverted justice, you're hit by a train, and then you go to Hell!

    • Pinocchio: Pre-teen runaways, smoking/drinking, kidnapping, slavery, magical transformation, and a whale tries to eat you! (Not to mention the previous comment about just why Gepetto wants a "real boy"...)

    • Matterhorn: Careening down a mountain in a bobsled with no brakes, you're attacked by a yeti!

    • Submarine Voyage: Lost child, surface storm, sharks, mines and again with the whale attack!

    •*Tarzan's Treehouse: Sabor! Stop chewing on that baby! The apes have claimed it!

    • Jungle Cruise: Hippos, pirhanas and natives, oh my! Not to mention the lasting trauma caused by some of the jokes...

    • Storybookland Canal Boats: WHAT IS IT WITH THE WHALES?!?

    Anyway, you get my drift. Almost every Disney attraction has something sad, scary, or dangerous. But in the end, you come through it OK. And that's the point; that's why these things are fun: you get the danger and excitement without the actual peril. Now, not to suggest that depictions of rape are fine as long as you "come through it OK," but entertainment is often catharsis, and has the potential to help us deal with these difficult situations. Every time I ride POTC, we seem to stop before the upramp and a drunken pirate fires his flintlock directly at my face. I really don't like that - it freaks me out, even though I know it doesn't fire anything. However, I can keep it together and not squeal like a little girl because I know where I am, and put the whole thing in context.

    So the next time a serious child asks you about the peril in POTC, assure her that the townspeople will get away, and be just fine. No, it doesn't always work that way in the real world, but can't we teach our children to hope that it will? Especially when we're at Disneyland?

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  10. #85

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by hobbitfeet View Post
    I'm obviously not paying enough attention when that is on. Is there a gay marriage in [Lilo and Stitch]?
    Well, the message of the movie seems to be that a family can come in any form, containing alien "uncles", human children etc...in other words, one could extend the interpretation that Disney is trying to teach kids that you can have a family with two dads or two moms, or so on and so forth. I don't buy that interpretation personally - with the number of single-parent families out there, kids should get some sort of comfort that their family doesn't need to be seen as "broken".

    Saying that Disney is trying to push the so-called 'homosexual agenda' on kids is kind of over-interpreting, like we seem to be tempted to do with the girl-chasing scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapplewhipaddict View Post
    In Marc Davis' original concept art, Anne Bonny and Mary Read were actually included (I'm not sure if this was for our actual attraction - I think it was geared for the walkthrough). All of the male pirates were digging for buried treasure, and Anne and Mary were just watching from the sidelines with the captain (and the regular pirates looked pretty angry about it).

    The picture is entertaining but a sexist generalization about women doing hard labor, and in many ways I'm glad it didn't make it in. In all actuality, those two women were the cream of the crop in their day - it was when they were pregnant and were supposed to stay down below and not fight when their crew was captured (and they even went up to fight anyway! The rest of the crew was in a drunken stupor).
    Now that sounds awesome - I wouldn't say it's a sexist portrayal so much as a truthful look on how good women are at training us to do things. Generally we don't even realize it wasn't our idea until the work is already done. I suspect mind control.

  11. #86

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapplewhipaddict View Post
    In Marc Davis' original concept art, Anne Bonny and Mary Read were actually included (I'm not sure if this was for our actual attraction - I think it was geared for the walkthrough). All of the male pirates were digging for buried treasure, and Anne and Mary were just watching from the sidelines with the captain (and the regular pirates looked pretty angry about it).

    The picture is entertaining but a sexist generalization about women doing hard labor, and in many ways I'm glad it didn't make it in. In all actuality, those two women were the cream of the crop in their day - it was when they were pregnant and were supposed to stay down below and not fight when their crew was captured (and they even went up to fight anyway! The rest of the crew was in a drunken stupor).
    Both actually served as inspiration for the fictional character Morgan Adams... but if I remember correctly the disclosure that they were in fact pregnant was only after they were at trial for piracy. Prior to that no one, aside from possibly the women themselves, knew they were pregnant. In fact I do not believe they were showing at the time either... point being that under English law a pregnant woman could not be executed.
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  12. #87

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    I have, so far, avoided weighing in on this one.

    I'm going to start with the Lilo & Stitch comment and build it back into the "pirates chasing women" scene.

    Sometimes I wonder if authors and artists didn't just write/paint/etc. something simply for the joy they derived from creating it. Or simply to tell a good story/paint something pretty/etc. I don't think that there is always this pressing need to have an underlying message, though often times there is (don't get me wrong here, not saying there never is).

    With Lilo & Stitch I don't think that Disney is trying to promote the idea (by extension) that any family, (2 daddies/mommies) is ok. I don't think that ever even entered into their minds at all, in any way. I think that Stitch himself describes exactly what is going on best of all:

    This is my family. I found it, all on my own. Is little, and broken, but still good. Yeah, still good.
    The point Disney is trying to make here is that no family is perfect. They are all flawed and have their problems, but that doesn't make it bad. Notice, Lilo had a mother and a father, and that fact is never blurred or hidden. But the family isn't what it used to be. And adding in aliens just serves to make that stand out even more. In a kids mind you get "no parents, alien uncles, wow... this really isn't a normal family, but it still works."

    To tie this back into the pirates scene, I think we are looking a little to deep. Steve made the statement that the pirate chasing the woman is there only as a set up for a gag with a woman chasing a pirate. I can remember going on this as a child and seeing this scene in its original glory and thinking that this was absolutely hilarious. Here are these pirates chasing the younger cuter girls and here is this older woman chasing the pirate. It was beautiful humor.

    I think it is possible to read to much into something and see things that aren't necessarily there. As adults, we know much more about pirates and their behavior. Yes, rape and other activities were things that happened, but as this ride is meant for both adults and children (specifically for the child in each of us), we should try to see it as it was intended, a sight gag. If a child has the maturity and knowledge to understand the possible deeper significance of what is going on, then it would be time to have a discussion about the values of our society with said child, but that should not diminish the fun that the sight gag is meant to produce.

    If this were a museum dedicated to victims of pirate rape, then this would be grossly out of place and a monstrous impropriety, but it is in a Disney theme park attraction.

    That being said, no-one ever seems to raise a hue and cry about the famous "slap" scenes in the movies. The implications are very clear that Jack Sparrow has been with these women and more than likely lied about it to the other. Infidelity is being portrayed here by a character who is widely idolized by children and adults alike.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  13. #88

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Dude, I totally just said that.

  14. #89

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post

    Ok, so can anyone confirm or deny this, I heard from a friend that we are seeing Pirates backwards, and this redhead is the same one from the action in the village.

    Anyone buying into that, or have more information?

    Sorry, I understand this might have been talked about somewhere long this topic, but I really don't feel like getting into a (only in America) sexist topic...
    Last edited by DisneyMouse; 05-20-2008 at 08:37 PM.

  15. #90

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    Dude, I totally just said that.
    Dude... don't you love it when someone else posts while you're still typing?

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

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