Coming to a DCA near you... The Big Red Car!

[GothicManor]

ah back to the days in l.a. when we had cheap electric public transport ...everywhere! before it was all ripped out in favor of gas cars and freeways......smart move there humans!

[techskip]

I'm pretty sure the trolleys will be popular for a couple reasons. In San Pedro the trolley is $1 to ride all day. It's usually about half full at most, 4 stops, 2 trolleys, trolley hits a stop every 20 minutes... again not too crowded. Part of the lack of crowds is that there is almost NOTHING ELSE TO DO in San Pedro. It has the Cruise Ship Terminal, the Maritime Museum, Ports o Call Village and a tram to the Cabrillo Aquarium (which sees a lot less business due to the beautiful Long Beach Aquarium). Aside from things like the tall ship festival there are rarely a lot of people in that part of San Pedro... yet the trolleys at times are half full. NOW... put those puppies in DCA and I'm guess the beautiful red cars will gather a line if only as a novelty because DCA has more people with even less to do!

[techskip]

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

Techskip: If you want a real family excursion, bundle the kids in the car and head out to Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris

Ok I will kick this off with what we rode first. Before I do I want to say that the OE Railway Museum is in the MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, and getting there is definitely a drive. The rewards were worth it. It sits on the outskirts of Perris, not a great neighborhood (graffiti etc) but the actual grounds are nice, clean, and AMAZING. Think of it as 1/3 full size train/trolley rides, 1/3 static roundhouse car displays (think like LA Travel Town but more) and 1/3 restoration/repair yard! Ok on with this report. Again I have placed this entire thread in the Disneyland section in hopes of presenting as much trolley information as possible. Thanks to many volunteers I have a better understanding of trolleys, their capabilities, and various uses. I was also guided to 2 small handbooks which I will quote for information.

This is the first trolley we rode. Pacific Electric 418. These are some exterior shots prior to departure



Couple shots of the inside along with the kids




Now some equipment shots, this is the toll calculator. Basically the conductor would set the wheel to the proper toll, then as he clicked the tickets/collected the toll per each row he would pull the rope, and the black box would keep track of the total amount of tolls collected on trip or per hour or per day (depending on how they wanted to record it) Basically it kept track of the money.

The 1528 Designation.... I will explain in a moment.

Couple control shots


And my favorite shot. Please bear in mind I am a Long Beach Native, and my Grandfather served/worked at Long Beach Naval Shipyard. I am also EXTREMELY familiar with San Pedro!


Now for the book history. Per their pamphlet/signage

Pacific Electric "Blimp" 418
Built 1913 by Pullman Car Co. Retired 1961
Construction Steel Length 72ft 4in Weight 121,160lbs Seats 80

This car was built for the Oakland, Alameda, and Berkeley Lines of the Southern Pacific RR for electric commuter service in the San Francisco Bay area. It was later transferred to the Interurban Electric Railway, and operated across the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge from 1939 to 1941. The tracks over the bridge were started with trains of the competing Key System (including "Bridge Unit" 167, also preserved here in Perris).

Following America's entry into World War II, The U.S. Maritime Commission purchased sixty-one IER cars, including this one, for its Shipyard Railway. Beginning in 1943 the line served the Calship Shipyard on Terminal Island, connecting with PE's Long Beach/San Pedro line. PE Ultimately purchased the car, and after the war it was remodeled into it's current configuration. The "Blimps", as they came to be known, operated PR's Southern District lines out of Downtown Los Angeles. The 418 was retired in 1961.

Renumberings: The car was originally numbered SP 344, it became PE 4614, then PE 418 in 1947, and finally MTA 1528 in 1958.

Incidently not mentioned in the book, per the tour guide top speed is 70mph, and they called it "Blimp" because of it's front/back windows and overall size! It was also known affectionately as one of the "Big Red Cars"

[Bruce Bergman]

Originally Posted by GothicManor

ah back to the days in l.a. when we had cheap electric public transport ...everywhere! before it was all ripped out in favor of gas cars and freeways......smart move there humans!

Hey, go watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" again - Buried under the yucks it was darned near a non-fiction documentary. Only the names of the villains were changed to stave off the lawsuits - that, and some of those companies have sponsored or are sponsoring Disney attractions.

The (un-named) Car, Truck & Bus Builders, Oil Rerfining and Marketing companies and Tire makers formed shell companies remarkably like the WFRR fictional "Cloverleaf Industries."

They bought up all the electric trolley systems they could, all across the country, so they could milk them for all their capital assets (stop maintenance, pocket the fares and maintenance money and kill the equipment through neglect) and then shut them down when they were too far gone...

... And replace the trollies with Rubber-tired Diesel Buses. And the people who could afford them would buy Rubber-tired Gasoline and Diesel personal Cars, and companies would move their merchandise with Rubber-tired Diesel and Gasoline Trucks.

And who would sell them all the cars, trucks and buses, supply the fuel, and the new tires? Glad you asked!

--<< Bruce >>--

[techskip]

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

Hey, go watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" again - Buried under the yucks it was darned near a non-fiction documentary. Only the names of the villains were changed to stave off the lawsuits - that, and some of those companies have sponsored or are sponsoring Disney attractions.

The (un-named) Car, Truck & Bus Builders, Oil Rerfining and Marketing companies and Tire makers formed shell companies remarkably like the WFRR fictional "Cloverleaf Industries."

They bought up all the electric trolley systems they could, all across the country, so they could milk them for all their capital assets (stop maintenance, pocket the fares and maintenance money and kill the equipment through neglect) and then shut them down when they were too far gone...

... And replace the trollies with Rubber-tired Diesel Buses. And the people who could afford them would buy Rubber-tired Gasoline and Diesel personal Cars, and companies would move their merchandise with Rubber-tired Diesel and Gasoline Trucks.

And who would sell them all the cars, trucks and buses, supply the fuel, and the new tires? Glad you asked!

--<< Bruce >>--

Two things... #1 I finally uploaded all the pics (took a bit with a combination of dial-up and community wifi which was up/down) and #2 Steve and I went round and round on the "what happened?" topic. The consensus, after a combination of paperwork and documentary videos including various "experts"; it was a COMBINATION of big business purchasing/dismantling and private automobiles (lack of public interest) that led to the overall decline. In short, gas was cheap, freeways were the rage, and a new street would cost more if it needed rails! At the same time, the big companies were more then willing to give that extra nudge necessary for a final goodbye.

I will post an in depth photo/text report of Orange Empire, including details of various street cars (we also saw steam locos... but I will limit this to the subject matter of Trolleys... Steve PM me for details/photos) hopefully tomorrow if I have a moment. I apologize in advance if anyone was lurking waiting for the massive post. It was a 1hr drive there/back... I am a bit tired right now!
-------- in an effort to conserve space here is part 2 of the TR----------

The second trolley we boarded was the PCC 3001. Unlike the 418 which is on a straight forward/back line this trolley is on an internal loop. I will start with a quote from the pamphlet explaining the designation PCC

Throughout the 1920's, streetcars were loosing customers to private automobiles. In an attempt to win back lost revenue, a group of street railway companies (including the LA Railway) combined their efforts in order to create a standardized streetcar which would be both attractive to the riding public and, inexpensive to manufacture. The participating companies formed the Electric Railway President's Conference Committee, and the car they designed was known by the committee's initials- the "PCC".

The PCC streetcar debuted in 1935 and bore little resemblance to any previous transit vehicle. Utilizing a streamlined car body of welded steel, the new PCC car incorporated radically new running gear, as well as the latest advances in propulsion and braking equipment. The PCC also represented an entirely new level of passanger comfort; their ride was exceptionally smooth, and passengers were provided with comfortably cushioned seating as well as improved heating, lighting, and ventilating systems. Over a period of sixteen years, nearly 5000 were built for service in North America.

Here are some exterior shots


and the interior including very excited kids



This is our Motorman, who was actually the Conductor on our PE 418, very informative, nice, knowledgeable individual. I was extremely grateful.

And this is a shot from the back window. The internal loop has both a standard and narrow gauge track to support the various trolley designs.


Ok stats on this beauty per the pamphlet

Los Angeles Railway "PCC CAR" 3001
Built 1937 by the St Louis Car Company
Length 46ft Weight 33,800lbs Seats 59

Car 3001 was Los Angeles' first PCC-type streetcar. It was unveiled on March 22, 1937 by Mayor Frank Shaw and child film star Shirley Temple, in a ceremony in front of City Hall. Public reaction to these modern cars was very favorable, and Los Angeles ultimately purchased a total of 165 PCCs between 1937 and 1948.

Car 3001 and its sisters were initially assigned to Pico Blvd. "P" Line, which was the LA Railway's busiest. As more PCC cars were added to the fleet, other lines converted to PCC service.

As motor bus substitution shrunk the streetcar network in the 1950's, PCC replaced older streetcars on remaining lines. By 1959 the PCCs were Los Angeles' sole remaining class of streetcars. 3001 was used until the abandonment of all streetcar service in 1963, in which year it came to the museum. It has been restored to its as delivered color scheme, which it wore from 1937 until repainted by Los Angeles Transit Lines in the late 1940's.

Not mentioned is the fact that it was only one direction and that it required a loop at either end of the line in order to reverse direction.

[Steve DeGaetano]

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

Hey, go watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" again - Buried under the yucks it was darned near a non-fiction documentary. Only the names of the villains were changed to stave off the lawsuits - that, and some of those companies have sponsored or are sponsoring Disney attractions.

The (un-named) Car, Truck & Bus Builders, Oil Rerfining and Marketing companies and Tire makers formed shell companies remarkably like the WFRR fictional "Cloverleaf Industries."

They bought up all the electric trolley systems they could, all across the country, so they could milk them for all their capital assets (stop maintenance, pocket the fares and maintenance money and kill the equipment through neglect) and then shut them down when they were too far gone...

... And replace the trollies with Rubber-tired Diesel Buses. And the people who could afford them would buy Rubber-tired Gasoline and Diesel personal Cars, and companies would move their merchandise with Rubber-tired Diesel and Gasoline Trucks.

And who would sell them all the cars, trucks and buses, supply the fuel, and the new tires? Glad you asked!

--<< Bruce >>--

Bruce, sorry, your "conspiracy" doesn't hold up to the facts. PE had THEMSELVES been converting to buses (and not GM ones) long before the alleged conspiracy occurred. As Tech notes, the infrastructure for trolley lines was expensive, and paid for by PE. Roads were free. And if a bus route wasn't profitable, or needed to be altered, all you needed to do was tell the driver to turn left instead of right.

The sad truth is that there was NO conspiracy to convert trolley lines into bus routes (GM-owned bus company National City Lines [not related in any way to PE] was convicted of buying only GM buses--a monopoly). Who killed the PE? Look in the mirror. Americans LIKED driving their own cars. And when the PE, with its street trackage, was slowed down with the increasing traffic, there was really no benefit to taking the Red Car.

There are many places that discuss the so-called "conspiracy." Because the guy who first proposed the conspiracy has been debunked as a fact twisting, paranoid fraud, most historians discount it completely.

http://1134.org/stan/ul/GM-et-al.html

http://www.baycrossings.com/Archives...conspiracy.htm

[Bruce Bergman]

I don't think it's a "conspiracy" to the same level of the Oliver Stone explanation of JFK, but it was one of the many factors nudging the trolleys toward eventual extinction. And even at the time it wan't much of a secret, which is one of the essential ingredients of a true conspiracy. But there was financial pressure applied from all sides.

One ant can't move much, but if you get a bunch of ants all pushing in the same direction at the same time... and "Oops, there goes another rubber tree plant!"

Roads and highways are heavily subsidized by the taxpayers, and rails at that time were not - Now they are. Metrolink (a subsidized governmental agency) now owns and operates large sections of the rails they operate on, they had to buy them up and improve them to the necessary standards for passenger traffic to prevent the railroads from shutting them down, ripping out the rails for scrap and selling off the land.

The problems of street traffic congestion affect buses just like they do trolley cars when they both follow a shared ROW - But there were large sections of the PE that had seperate ROW, so that was only a contributing factor to their demise at worst. And if they had the taxpayer subsidies back then they could have easily built roadway tunnels and bridges and let the rails bypass the street traffic troubles.

Route flexibility is not that big a problem, as the trolley routes followed the major passenger movement demands fairly well - they could have easily remained as the long-distance part of the system (like the current Subway and Light Rail systems, and "Metro Rapid" articulated buses provide now) and use regular buses for feeder and local duties.

And considering where energy prices are going, they would be a smart investment to bring back.

--<< Bruce >>--

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Perhaps it is less dasterdly than portrayed in Roger Rabbit.

Maybe nobody appreciated the value of grade seperation and couldn't imagine the roadways would be clogged.

In those days, the bright big beautiful tomorrow would keep pace with demand. If it had, we wouldn't miss railways except for nostalgic value. Now we have come to the conclusion that rapid transit, esp. fixed lines with grade seperation, can move a lot more people quickly through than a bunch of individual cars on freeways.

[Seawolf]

Lets just hope this project doesn't get retired the same way the Jolly Trolly did.

[techskip]

I had tried to post this earlier, but better late then never. I am also sorry for the double post on the edit, like I said had connection issues earlier.

There were a variety of factors that contributed to the demise of the trolleys, Big Business, corrupt politicians, a waning public that loved freeways and automobiles, simple economics even had a hand. Many people cite the Snell and then simply call it a "conspiricy". The reality is that many bus routes were designed as direct replacements to the trolleys, and in many cases the trolley companies were bought out. Colombus lost their system due to corrupt politics... amazing how much paperwork has surfaced since everything happened! Internal memos among other things show that while Big Business did not put the nail in the coffin, they did take several swings with a hammer so to speak. As to the Monopoly issue, it was GM, Standard Oil, and Firestone if I remember my history correctly.

Anyhow back on topic.

[techskip]

LA 1201 was the last trolley car we rode.




And a quick snapshot of the controls

Los Angeles Railway 1201
Built: 1921 by the St Louis Car Company
Length: 48ft Weight: 43,800 Seats: 48

Car 1201 was the first of 250 "Type H" streetcars; the Los Angeles Railway's first steel-bodied double-truck cars. The Type H cars were built with the familiar "California style" open/closed/open architecture of the earlier wooden designs, and had Spartan interiors with wooden slat seating. They were equipped for multiple unit operation, capable of operating in two-car trains.

The Los Angeles Transit Lines donated car 1201 to the City of Inglewood in 1955 for static display in Centinela Park. After suffering from vandalism, it was moved to Travel Town in Griffith Park. It was part of a small group of cars moved to Perris in 1959 by OERM predecessor Orange Empire Trolley Museum.

Car 1201 has been restored to its 1934 appearance, in which year it was modified to permit one-man operation.

Honestly a pleasure to ride, a bit bumpy, but overall nice and cool. I was honestly humbled and amazed by my experiences on the various trolleys. I will post next on various static and restorations that are currently ongoing.

This isn't us on it... but I wanted a shot of it while it was running. I was actually looking at one of the Hollywood cars in the next post when I snapped this!

[techskip]

While looking around I actually ran into TWO "Hollywood" cars. This one happened to be sitting outside



I didn't bother with an inside shot because the inside in mainly gutted with a rather large layer of dust. It's actually pretty sad, the OERM operates on Volunteers and Donations (sales of rides/souvenirs/memberships). They have a TON of equipment and due to limited manpower/budget they can only do so much restoration because they have to ensure the operating ones stay in operating shape. When you walk around you see a lot of trolleys with windows boarded up. I inquired about this, thinking they were scrap. They are boarded up specifically because they want to try to preserve what is left of the interiors. Restoration also isn't a quick, snap your fingers it's done, sort of job. It is intensive labor, often times parts need to be fabricated because they are no longer being manufactured. Wood pieces need to be made using the originals as templates. Just painting one of these giants is an expensive, and enormous task.

This is a Hollywood currently being restored.



And thanks to a Volunteer I was allowed inside to snap these interior shots as well


From what was explained by the Member who was restoring it. The first step is to get these beauties mechanically sound, then they make the inside/outside look good! This Hollywood is running great and hopefully will be getting a new paintjob and some inside work here pretty soon. Supposedly the ads are original, and the lighting fixtures are the "updates" from the 1940's. That empty spot in the center is where the toll box will go!

Since I mentioned restoration, here is one in the back being repainted... that... is a lot of primer

Amazingly, and this is a nod to the Museum, even when restoring a car they have signs to inform you of what it is you're looking at. I am the type who reads EVERYTHING in a display, drives my wife nuts. I was a kid in a candy store, and while I did bolt from one car to the next, I took the time to read everything before moving on. I am also very thankful to another Member for recommending the two handbooks, an awe inspiring $3 for both, which has all the sign information... really really enjoyable.

So my point remains, Trolleys are deeply rooted in the history and fabric of California. They brought enjoyment to millions for over a century, and some of them continue to delight the children of today... if only to serve as ambassadors from the past. I honestly hope Disney installs a trolley line in DCA. I think the best would be authentic ones, similar to Walt's decision to buy authentic locos after he had the first two built (that was also a financial decision). However after being on the San Pedro trolleys, I can say with honesty that a well made replica is just as amazing!

[drb]

IIRC, the nearly-restored Hollywood car, the 717, is restored to its 1930s appearance, while the one in a much earlier stage of restoration has its 1940s look, hence the difference in paint schemes. I know that they did some work on the window sills on the 637 a few years back to make it more rainproof, and touched up its orange and white markings, but for the most part all their energy and resources are going into the 717. There's a third Hollywood car there that's also waiting for restoration.

They're also nearly finished, last time I checked, with major restoration on a second Blimp, this one being a passenger/freight combo car, with a third Blimp in operating condition but needing lots of cosmetic and upholstery work, and a fourth one that's just an empty shell. And then there's two PE Birneys needing work, two non-restored 500-class cars (one was used as a blueprint for the San Pedro replica cars), two 1000-class cars, a few other various unrestored PEs, and a Pacific Electric electric locomotive that's been getting some restoration done to it, so their resources are spread pretty thin. Almost all of them CAN be restored, but they can only work on so many projects at a time, and each restoration can take years, sometimes even decades.

[Bruce Bergman]

I think I've created a monster. Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...

--<< Bruce >>--

[Missviolet]

Has anyone ever told you that your kids and wife are ADORABLE?