Coming to a DCA near you... The Big Red Car!

[Steve DeGaetano]

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

I don't think it's a "conspiracy" to the same level of the Oliver Stone explanation of JFK, but it was one of the many factors nudging the trolleys toward eventual extinction.

Well, the way you lay out your "facts" sure makes it sound like a conspiracy to rid the world of electric trolleys. While such shenanigans may have taken place in other cities (and Tech has some good links/info) the same cannot be said of LA and the Pacific Electric. The idea does make good fodder for the Roger Rabbit movie, however--ill-informed though it may be.

[techskip]

Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano

Well, the way you lay out your "facts" sure makes it sound like a conspiracy to rid the world of electric trolleys. While such shenanigans may have taken place in other cities (and Tech has some good links/info) the same cannot be said of LA and the Pacific Electric. The idea does make good fodder for the Roger Rabbit movie, however--ill-informed though it may be.

I know we talked about all of this before, so it should be buried in the archives of Micechat somewhere. Essentially anything crooked would have been on a local municipal level. This was not a State or Federal "conspiracy" if you will. In some cases it was crooked city politicians, in some cases it was simple economics; new routes didn't need an overhead line or rails, and there were gas stations on every corner. Also Freeways, Drive-Ins, and Fast Food were quickly becoming the rage. In the end people wanted road over rails! There were a few cases of trolleys being bought outright and scrapped, and the owning companies having questionable ties to Big Business. I really think everyone just saw the writing on the wall, and Big Business helped them out the door!

What I find ironic is that then cheap gas has flipped and is now expensive gas. While some would argue that electricity is just as dirty (making it anyways) there are clean alternatives that are currently being developed. Which means that keeping the electric trolleys may have been more cost effective in the long run since they need to basically rebuild the infrastructure to support them if they want them back.

[techskip]

I think it is safe to say that this

is the type of overhead appearance we are trying to avoid. However, to be fair, this is an intersection at the roundhouse.

Ok Semi random picture time since I do not have my little booklets handy right now. This is the B&K which you are technically not supposed to climb on. I was in the middle of stopping my little ones from doing just that when a Member said it was ok to take a picture as long as they were careful... so



Again not trying to get anyone in trouble, so no names, but these pictures were supervised and the kids were taken off immediately after the pictures were snapped. Also juice box was empty... and it wasn't until the picture was snapped that anyone noticed it... it was quickly removed along with the kids!

To all of the Members I say thank you. I was continually greeted by very friendly, nice, informative individuals who took pride in their respective projects, and displayed a profound knowledge of the various trolleys. They also were EXTREMELY nice to the little ones who were very excited and asked a TON of questions.

Interior shot


Bakersfield & Kern Electric Railway No.4
Built 1900 by the Holman Car Company
Construction: Wood Length: 26'6 Weight: 16,000lbs Seats: 36

I was talking with Bruce and this would be about the right size of what is needed at DCA, but there are issues with how rough it would ride as well as the turning radius.

And here is Old Pueblo


Sorry for the long shot on that one. You can also see the Hollywood out in the sunlight and the SF right next to it as well as the pit Bruce described.

I will recount Old Pueblo's history when I get home but here are the basics.

Pacific Electric "Birney" 332 A.K.A. "Old Pueblo"
Built 1918 by J.G. Brill Company
Construction Steel Length 27'9 Weight 14,700lbs Seats 32

B&K was my option #2 for a car design since again it is the right size needed for DCA. Again technical problems include turning, and a rough ride.

Here is it's sister the 331

[techskip]

Here is the SF

I just realized that in all the pictures I did snap, I did not snap one of the Funeral Car in it's entirety. I think I picked up a postcard so I will use that if I did. So here are my 2 details of the Funeral Car

Stained Glass and Casket Door


Detail of boarding door (sorry for the flash)


This car was AMAZING. I will again recount the history when I have it handy, which isn't right now of course... This car also had stained glass above the windows, but the pictures didn't come out.

[Steve DeGaetano]

Tech: Birneys--with their short wheelbases--can turn on a DIME.

[techskip]

As Bruce mentioned there will be a Trolley Festival coming up here within a few weeks. I realize Perris is a bit of a drive... but I plan on taking the family. I am not sure if anyone would be interested in setting up a meet, but as I said I hope to be there. This is an amazing place, and again hopefully this thread will encourage others to enjoy the trolleys and get Disney to put it in DCA!

[Steve DeGaetano]

And here's a history of Descanso.

http://www.oerm.org/pages/lary_descanso.html

[techskip]

Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano

Tech: Birneys--with their short wheelbases--can turn on a DIME.

Per Bruce

The Birney Safety Cars would be the perfect size, but the single-trucks would not work well on the really tight curves required in DCA, they were meant for full-size rail lines with mininmum appx. 250' radius turns, not the 50' radius turn you'd end up with in HPB passing the Hyperion.

(Unless you want to clip a big chunk off the NE corner of the Animation Building to widen out the curve - but then again, they might have to.)

And as noted, Birney's ride like a brick - and get them moving and they see-saw, they buck like a wild bronco. I rode the Museum's out on the mainline once, where they have a few miles of straight track to open it up.

Make or restore a "Double-Truck Birney" like PE 152 that rides on two 2-axle trucks, and that would work. Ride better, and handle the tight curves much better.

And

Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano

And here's a history of Descanso.

http://www.oerm.org/pages/lary_descanso.html

Thank You... I hadn't even looked to see what was already online... sorry to rehash readily available information.

[PragmaticIdealist]

Are there any other cities besides San Francisco that have put into regular use defunct trolleys that have been acquired from elsewhere?

[techskip]

Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist

Are there any other cities besides San Francisco that have put into use defunct trolleys that have been restored?

New Orleans

[Steve DeGaetano]

Knowing what I know about rail vehicle wheelbases, I believe Bruce is incorrect.

[techskip]

Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano

Knowing what I know about rail vehicle wheelbases, I believe Bruce is incorrect.

That is a debate that is well above my extremely limited knowledge of the rails... again my apologies for posting redundant information. In my excitement to post the pics I decided to post the pamphlet info as well. Seeing how much info is readily available I could have saved a lot of time and space by simply linking the pictures to their respective articles.

[Bruce Bergman]

Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano

Knowing what I know about rail vehicle wheelbases, I believe Bruce is incorrect.

Oh, I don't doubt that a Birney design (long wheelbase fixed axles) WILL do it, can do it, and historically has done it. The only reason I brought it up is that from a purely mechanical viewpoint it shouldn't do it - it's not the right tool for the job. You don't drive foundation pilings with a tack hammer, or do furniture upholstery with a pile driver - but they are both striking tools.

The cone shape of the wheel faces can only compensate for so much differential action, and the cars will need to negotiate some REALLY tight curves which would spread the rails way apart from the view of the axles - one-off super wide face wheelsets and a big trench in the street for them to ride down in on the inner rail of the turn, which would be a huge trip-and-fall hazard. And then there's accelerated tire wear and rail wear from the acute angles...

This is the kind of esoteric discussion we would need to have in front of a big whiteboard with a fresh pot of coffee, not trying to text it all out in a chatroom posting - we could bore everyone else to tears inside of ten minutes. (I've probably lost them already - Oh well...)

It's only an opinion, and it may well be wrong. But I'm not conceding anything without stating my case first.

--<< Bruce >>--

[techskip]

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

Oh, I don't doubt that a Birney design (long wheelbase fixed axles) WILL do it, can do it, and historically has done it. The only reason I brought it up is that from a purely mechanical viewpoint it shouldn't do it - it's not the right tool for the job. You don't drive foundation pilings with a tack hammer, or do furniture upholstery with a pile driver - but they are both striking tools.

The cone shape of the wheel faces can only compensate for so much differential action, and the cars will need to negotiate some REALLY tight curves which would spread the rails way apart from the view of the axles - one-off super wide face wheelsets and a big trench in the street for them to ride down in on the inner rail of the turn, which would be a huge trip-and-fall hazard. And then there's accelerated tire wear and rail wear from the acute angles...

This is the kind of esoteric discussion we would need to have in front of a big whiteboard with a fresh pot of coffee, not trying to text it all out in a chatroom posting - we could bore everyone else to tears inside of ten minutes. (I've probably lost them already - Oh well...)

It's only an opinion, and it may well be wrong. But I'm not conceding anything without stating my case first.

--<< Bruce >>--

I want to formally apologize to both Bruce and Steve. I am honestly curious as to the outcome of this debate, and did not mean to fuel it by making a private conversation public. I have a VERY limited knowledge of rails. This conversation is reminiscent of the "what to do" conversations between the old Skips on the dock, many of which I was a part of! I think I understand Bruce's point... can be done but should it and at what cost... I do need a bit of clarification though. You mentioned widening the rails... is this due to wear or weight of the car pressing at a specific angle on the rails?

[The Blue Parrot]

Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano

Tech: Birneys--with their short wheelbases--can turn on a DIME.

I've had enough hours running streetcars that I'm curious, yet cautious about the thought of them running in the street at DCA

A less than desirable points about single truck Birney cars. I have had the unfortunate pleasure of being the motorman aboard one with a full school group of rowdy kids and less than effective chaperones. It was noisy as all heck and the seats are really close together. Trouble just waiting to happen.

And I have heard tales told by old timers about how they could derail a car by jumping up and down in one end.

But, with a full car of adults and kids, it actually ran pretty good and did not hunt as much as when it was empty.

As for being safety cars, the controller has a dead man feature that applies the brakes into emergency and cuts out the electricity by having a piston pop out that trips the breaker to the motors when the motorman lets his hand off the handle. It does bring the car to an almost immediate stop and at speed can be quite an experience.

But one would have to imagine that if Disney did use overhead wires to power the cars, the voltage would have to be lower than the usual 1220 or even 600 volts and that speeds would be very limited. Probably no more than 10 to 15 mph - max. And using air brakes means a very intensive air compressor that would probably draw more voltage in use than the motors.

One interurban car that I ran was orginally a four motor, 1200 volt car. With only two motors and running on 600 volts, it wasn't too pokey and still moved along well enough at 25 to 30 mph in full parallel.

One plus about single truck Birneys. They are a good idea as the all steel bodies can be reproduced easily enough and there are a good number of them around at museums for patterns.

And the PE did have them, so they do fit into the Southern California theme, very well. As seen by the view of car 331. Car #10 is actually another PE Birney that OERM had leased to the folks at the Old Pueblo Trolley in Arizona. OERM just hasn't seen the need to repaint it yet and who can blame them. That green and cream is pretty attractive.