View Poll Results: Should it be done?

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  • Yes

    12 15.19%
  • No

    61 77.22%
  • Unsure

    6 7.59%
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  1. #46

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    I will go into more detail this evening when I get home. We visited the park last night and I snapped the pictures I required. I was able to develop four locations where an elevator can be installed with minimal visual and traffic impact, in all 4 cases it would be possible to put in a medium to high capacity elevator.

    Because it is only a bi-level it would utilize a hydraulic lift system which would eliminate the need for a counterweight system thereby further compacting the design. A larger scale design of this can be seen in the Westfield Mainplace Mall a few miles from the park off the 5.

    In order to increase traffic flow, and relieve congestion it would need to face outwards towards the castle on the lower level, and face inwards towards the train on the upper level. As I said there are currently 4 locations where this could be done with minimal impact. This will be hard to explain without the snapshots so I apologize but I will post those later.

    Option 1, remove the planter portion that extends from either side of the platform entrance staircase and built the elevator right next to the stairs, literally embedded in the wall. I checked, it can be made the same width as the staircase platforms, and because of the size of the planter you are not taking up extra real-estate. If need be you can remove a small portion of the staircase platform to add more room. This will work, and it will not impede the exit staircase which empties out right next to it (because it is essentially where the planter is now).

    Option 2, would require removing a portion of the platform that is currently recessed to allow the stroller parking and exit staircase. I would not recommend this method because it would require excavation, and it would essentially dump into the same exit as the standard exit does. Again the elevator would be recessed and would not add additional real estate to the bottom of the platform. It would remove real estate from the top of the platform but this area is currently not utilized to a great degree.

    I still feel a Baggage type area building would be the best theme for the upper platform. I also checked to see what "view" would be lost... and found that you would loose the view of the tree which is already blocking the train behind it... IMHO not a big loss. For efficiency reasons I would recommend placing it at the rear exit, which would allow quick boarding of both elevator and train.

    The primary drawback would be cost... aside from that it could easily be done and be fairly efficient. Again I apologize for the lack of photos, I will edit and post those when I am home this evening. I thought I had them on my laptop but I do not.
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  2. #47

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by nolimit View Post
    The trains always have more than a minute to load. Its usually around 2-2 1/2. Either way, it would be a pain to do things this way.
    I agree that it often does take a train more than a minute to load. In theory, however, conductors are expected to only take a minute to unload and a minute to load and then dispatch the train so that it leaves each station in just over two minutes. The THRC is calculated on a number a little over two minutes (2:15?). The point is that adding accessibility to Main Street would slow loading times and decrease the railroad's potential to carry guests.

    Also, trains at Main Street already have a tendency to back up into the Primeval World. If a train takes longer than it should to load, there could very likely also be a train holding in the diorama waiting for the next zone to clear. Would an elevator justify that effect on the show for the guests on that train?

  3. #48

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Code90 View Post
    Disneyland has installed ADA ramps at the three other stations while also converting all four trains to accommodate wheelchairs. These efforts alone are above and beyond ADA guidelines. It's not necessary to obscure an historical landmark like Main Street Station with an elevator.
    If your not disabled, you don't know what a pain this can be.

    And Disneyland has 5 trains, so there's a problem there.

    They could definately add one by the bank, and make it reserved for disabled guests only. The problem is, however, that there is NO way to fit a ramp onto the train in where everything currently lies. They would have to push the platform out to the second track that's no longer connected (old pass track) So, it's in no way ethical. But, I would like to see one one day
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  4. #49

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric5675 View Post
    And Disneyland has 5 trains, so there's a problem there.
    Disneyland has five engines but only four rolling stocks. Each of the four rolling stocks has a section for wheelchairs.

  5. #50

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Really? I was fairly sure they had five rolling stocks also. Now I want to go check. Wikipedia here I come!
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  6. #51

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric5675 View Post
    Really? I was fairly sure they had five rolling stocks also. Now I want to go check. Wikipedia here I come!
    No, there are only 4 sets of passenger cars and 5 engines as previously stated. If there were 5 sets of passenger cars, it wouldn't fit into the Roundhouse. They would have to leave one set of passenger cars sitting on the main loop every night if they had 5 sets. The Roundhouse only has 4 tracks, just like how the Monorail "Roundhouse" above it only has 4 tracks.

  7. #52

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    As for shutting down an elevator at Main Street Station for parades, that wouldn't be acceptable. What about the kids who want to ride the train with disabled Grandpa in a wheelchair when the parade is coming down the street? It should be accessible even during parades if it were to be built.

    I think we can think of Main Street Station as a themed queue line in terms of the trains being an attraction. So boarding the train at another station is simply boarding the ride from another entrance, which is very common. Take for instance the Haunted Mansion. Guests in wheelchairs do not go through the normal queue line, and will miss out on some of the theming. They also do not exit via the speed ramp and hence miss being invited to "Hurry Back, Hurry Back... Be sure to bring your Death Certificate..." But they do get to experience the entire ride itself. That is the goal. Disney is doing a wonderful job in making more rides accessible to Guests in wheelchairs. But it's nearly impossible to make every bit of theming in the queue accessible to them too.

    Personally as a non-disabled person, I miss being able to sit in the seat at the end of the last car, to watch the train tracks behind. Now that area has been taken away from normal riders and is reserved for disabled people. I can live with not being able to sit there anymore since it helps the less mobile, but I still miss being able to do it.

  8. #53

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Here are those pics I promised



    As you can clearly see there is more then enough room to build an elevator on EITHER SIDE. While the Baggage area theme would make more sense near the front... it would be a great deal more efficent to have the elevator located towards the back

    I also thought about it. In the off chance that I wanted to see Walt, and the week before I had cracked my ankle and was stuck in a chair then

    Ok so I have to go around because they built a ramp for the parade crossing but that's it... then again this is Walt, not many people go up to that statue... so as is I'll just roll up through the castle...

    Well I guess I can use the area to the right, thankfully a parade cuts through there so they built a ramp... or I can cut left over by Frontierland where they built a ramp for the service vehicles, in order to ensure the park is clean and properly maintained after hours.

    My point, especially in posting those last two, is that not everything is expensive. It would cost a minimal amount of time, material, and effort... not to mention make it easier for those to access in both wheelchairs and strollers (both of which frequent the castle in huge numbers). I also wanted to demonstrate that there isn't much of a view to impede if an elevator were to be discretely built.
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  9. #54

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregmh48 View Post
    I agree that it often does take a train more than a minute to load. In theory, however, conductors are expected to only take a minute to unload and a minute to load and then dispatch the train so that it leaves each station in just over two minutes. The THRC is calculated on a number a little over two minutes (2:15?). The point is that adding accessibility to Main Street would slow loading times and decrease the railroad's potential to carry guests.

    Also, trains at Main Street already have a tendency to back up into the Primeval World. If a train takes longer than it should to load, there could very likely also be a train holding in the diorama waiting for the next zone to clear. Would an elevator justify that effect on the show for the guests on that train?
    I am a conductor. There is no set time to unload the train. Conductors wait for the platform to clear a bit and then immediately load. The dispatch interval changes based on how many trains are on the line, just as in any attraction. Technically, adding an ADA ramp to Main Street would be no different than the rest of the stations. The loading times would be the same really. And, the trains have to hold more often in other zones rather than just in the diorama. Diorama only backs up if the train in New Orleans is slow.

    Conductors work together in order to make things go as smoothly as possible. If there is an ADA at the station, the front conductor signals the rear so that they know to get the ramp set up and ready. It shouldnt take much longer to load an ADA because the rear conductor can assist the wheelchair party while the front conductor loads the rest of the train.

  10. #55

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by nolimit View Post
    The dispatch interval changes based on how many trains are on the line, just as in any attraction. Technically, adding an ADA ramp to Main Street would be no different than the rest of the stations. The loading times would be the same really. And, the trains have to hold more often in other zones rather than just in the diorama. Diorama only backs up if the train in New Orleans is slow.
    I am also a conductor.

    The dispatch interval is almost always two minutes, unless there are less than three trains on the track and TC wants equal spacing. Two minutes is optimal for three trains and essential for four. The timing bells at every station signal the first minute and the second minute so you know when you should be loading and when you should be preparing to leave. I realize that it doesn't take an entire minute to just unload, but that is the time the OG designates for unloading. While in practice some conductors might take longer to dispatch, they should always have the two minute goal in mind.

    About holding in a zone outside the station, the only one that I see more often than in the Primeval World is behind Festival Arena. Those two are definitely the two trouble points. In my experience, adding a ramp to Main Street would increase the time it takes to depart by about a minute simply due to the walk of the ADA party from one end of the station to the other. The efficiency you mention of front conductor loading the rear cannot happen with the queue set up at Main Street. The rear queue cannot be loaded by the front conductor because it it separate from his queue, a third cast member would be required.

    I believe that the operational difficulties of loading a train at Main Street with an elevator at the Tour Gardens imposes an operational cost on the railroad far greater than its benefits.

  11. #56

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric5675 View Post
    Really? I was fairly sure they had five rolling stocks also. Now I want to go check. Wikipedia here I come!
    No need to consult Wikipedia (the article on the Disneyland Railroad usually has errors anyway. When I correct them, sometimes they're "corrected" back). Just to confirm what others already have, the Disneyland Railroad has five engines, and four sets of rolling stock--The Holiday Red, Holiday Blue, Holiday Green and Excursion Cars.

    They used to have five operable sets of cars, from the mid-1960s through 1974, when "Retlaw One" was around. Those cars were removed from service in 1974, and traded away in the 1990s.

  12. #57

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregmh48 View Post
    I believe that the operational difficulties of loading a train at Main Street with an elevator at the Tour Gardens imposes an operational cost on the railroad far greater than its benefits.
    Again not at tour gardens. I proposed putting it at the station, near the rear entrance, to ensure a short walk time, easy transfer, and overall efficient process.

    As I said, there is room for the elevator, it can be done with minimal impact on the overall aesthetics or traffic congestion, the main concern is simply cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    No need to consult Wikipedia (the article on the Disneyland Railroad usually has errors anyway. When I correct them, sometimes they're "corrected" back).
    Ahh the wonderful age of "Wiki said so!"
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  13. #58

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    It can be done, but to really theme it properly and make it look seamless it won't be cheap. And it's not really necessary for day-to-day operations (since they can use the other three stations) but would be useful in an emergency so they can unload there.

    And it is going to totally destroy the symmetry of the station view from Main Street and the Plaza. If it wasn't for the traffic troubles I'd put it farther east facing the east tunnel walkway and the pin stand, where it will hide in the trees.

    That said, IF you can get them to go for it, the disguised lift needs to go right behind the trashcan here:

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Here are those pics I promised

    <Snip several more photos and earlier parts of the disussion. If you really need to know, scroll back - BB>

    As you can clearly see there is more then enough room to build an elevator on EITHER SIDE. While the Baggage area theme would make more sense near the front... it would be a great deal more efficent to have the elevator located towards the back

    My point, especially in posting those last two, is that not everything is expensive. It would cost a minimal amount of time, material, and effort... not to mention make it easier for those to access in both wheelchairs and strollers (both of which frequent the castle in huge numbers). I also wanted to demonstrate that there isn't much of a view to impede if an elevator were to be discretely built.
    All depends on your definition of "expensive" - Anything Disney does in a public venue is going to rival a Public Works project - it all has to be planned, and engineered, and safety checked, and cleared through Legal and Anaheim Building & Safety, and built by outside building and elevator erection contractors to high safety standards.

    This well-hidden elevator inside a themed "outbuilding" on the upper level(with an underground equipment room right next to it for the pump and controls) is going to be $1 Million Dollars at a bare minimum, and $3M isn't out of the question. And that's before you build a loading platform for the last train car, or modify fences and gates in the station to get there...

    Note the tree on the station level, you have to cheat the elevator and equipment room to the east as far as possible (right at the last step) to avoid the root ball. Prune the tree roots too much and you chance the tree blowing over in a windstorm. Put the Elevator right behind the can, and the machine room entrance off to the left in the crook of the straircase, it needs to be close by to minimize the chance of oil leaks.

    You might be able to get something really ugly but usable for $250,000 - they would literally make a notch in the retaining wall with a poured concrete base and 'notch' walls, a concrete path with side walls for the planter leading up to it at street level, and put in a pre-fab open platform elevator lift (like Tiki Room) to platform height. Paint it green to match the climbing shrubs till they grow back, and bury a power line over to the base to operate it.

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  14. #59

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregmh48 View Post

    About holding in a zone outside the station, the only one that I see more often than in the Primeval World is behind Festival Arena. Those two are definitely the two trouble points. In my experience, adding a ramp to Main Street would increase the time it takes to depart by about a minute simply due to the walk of the ADA party from one end of the station to the other. The efficiency you mention of front conductor loading the rear cannot happen with the queue set up at Main Street. The rear queue cannot be loaded by the front conductor because it it separate from his queue, a third cast member would be required.
    Zone 4 and zone 7 hold quite a bit more than diorama. The walk from one end to the other is no different from New Orleans. That station has the same long walk set up, and while sometimes it can be slow, depending on the conductors, it can be very smooth and fast. I admit, I forgot that Main Street has the two seperate gates, but they also have a train central. TC can go out and help the ADA or open the rear gate if need be. It can be done, and efficiently done, but it wont be.

  15. #60

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    Re: Should the MS Train Depot add an Elevator?

    Should the MS Train Depot add an elevator?
    Absolutely not!

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