2/3: Foul Fellows

[Al Lutz]

Kevin updates his book, and takes a look at park visitors who cheat the system. Discuss it all here...

DIRECT ARTICLE LINK: MiceAge.com - A different look at Disney...

[vfire]

Cheaters suck. I don't think you're going to get much of a debate here on that. Disney should be more pro-active about kicking them out of the park and changing the rules and/or procedures to make it more difficult to achieve.

[RumRunner31]

As a DL CM working in City Hall, I can tell you that we do not and cannot ask to see any sort of Dr.'s note when issuing a GAC. We simply ask what their concerns are, or what it is about the standard queue that they would have trouble with, then try to provide them with the appropriate assistance. Do people abuse it? ALL THE TIME.

When I first started working in City Hall I would try to weed out the cheaters, and it used to be that our leads and managers would back up our decisions. But then there was a change. I would say no, and they would ask for my lead, who would back me up. But if they asked for a manager, the manager would give them the GAC every time to apease them. After a while with that, the leads didn't feel like looking like idiots anymore, so they stopped backing up the frontline CMs. The result is that now, I too have given up. I've taken the outlook of "I know you're lying to me, but that's on YOUR karma. Here's your GAC." because it's useless to try to fight it. There are even websites out there (thankfully not this one) that COACH people on the buzzwords to use in City Hall so that we can't deny them a specific type of assistance. It's out of control.

[sediment]

Still awaiting that essay on the many evils of FastPass.

Also note that frequency of visits allows time for reconnaissance, to determine what one can get away with.

[Ferris]

Kevin, congrats on the second edition.

The granddaddy of disabled access cheating comes in the form of the Special Assistance Pass (SAP)

I have visited with people that use the SAP and kid swap together. Now, I consider myself a pretty able bodied person, and I would consider them able bodied people as well. I agree with your sentiment, it just feels wrong to do it if you don't need it. Bad karma.

I am surprised that you did not touch on cheating with the dining plan. I'm sure you could fill an entire article simply on that. I will admit that I was guilty of this on my last visit 2 years ago. As it is, my wife and I typically split meals when we go to restaurants (whether at Disney World or elsewhere) to save on money and to help control our portion sizes. With the dining plan they just give you a ghastly amount of food. Far more than either of us would ever need in one sitting. We know that most of our servers are well aware of what's going on, but many of them agree that it is just way too much food. I haven't really looked into the new dining plan that they recently implemented to see if it makes more sense, but back when I went, I can't see how they could possibly expect people NOT to cheat within that system.

[filmfreak11]

Originally Posted by RumRunner31

As a DL CM working in City Hall, I can tell you that we do not and cannot ask to see any sort of Dr.'s note when issuing a GAC. We simply ask what their concerns are, or what it is about the standard queue that they would have trouble with, then try to provide them with the appropriate assistance. Do people abuse it? ALL THE TIME.

When I first started working in City Hall I would try to weed out the cheaters, and it used to be that our leads and managers would back up our decisions. But then there was a change. I would say no, and they would ask for my lead, who would back me up. But if they asked for a manager, the manager would give them the GAC every time to apease them. After a while with that, the leads didn't feel like looking like idiots anymore, so they stopped backing up the frontline CMs. The result is that now, I too have given up. I've taken the outlook of "I know you're lying to me, but that's on YOUR karma. Here's your GAC." because it's useless to try to fight it. There are even websites out there (thankfully not this one) that COACH people on the buzzwords to use in City Hall so that we can't deny them a specific type of assistance. It's out of control.

Huh, but I'm sure some still bring some sort of doctor's note or paper work, right?

Anyways, I don't know about WDW, but DL's GACs don't seem to be color-coded. Then some are upset about what type of GAC they were issued.

The main reason for my post is the number of guests in the party. Too many people try to abuse that as well. The max is 6 but a group of 15 show up instead.

[JesterMn]

As a PAP holder, I have long thought that APs are way too cheap. I feel they should all have been raised by $100-$200 or more for years now. A PAP really should cost about $500, IMO. Would it be easy for me to afford? Of course not. But having them available so cheap may unconsciously state, "Disney isn't really worth much, so what does it matter if you bend the rules a bit?"

I guess you could counter-argue that if someone paid so much, their logic would be, "I've paid an exorbitant amount of money, and I'm going to do anything I can to get all I can from it, even if it means cheating!". I suppose that sort of person may always exist... but at a higher price, at least there'd be fewer of them.

[themur]

I too am troubled by the family that busts out the full picnic in the park.

Food and beverage IS expensive in the park. I have always viewed it as the "trade-off" for relatively inexpensive park admission (or really in-expensive admission with an often-used AP.)

At the end of the day, to manage the park they are looking at a total spending amount per person. If admission is cheaper, stuff inside is more expensive. Just have to make choices.

[sediment]

Originally Posted by JesterMn

I guess you could counter-argue that if someone paid so much, their logic would be, "I've paid an exorbitant amount of money, and I'm going to do anything I can to get all I can from it, even if it means cheating!"

That's about how it goes, except there are not enough "I's" in your sentence.

[gatorgrad]

Kevin, as a former Soarin' CM, I think that some of your scenarios are plausible, but many of them are fortunately less "allowable" than you think. First, the GAC card that the vast majority of people get allows for the guest to wait in a shaded queue line. Many guests think that this means they will get up either the fastpass queue line or the exit, but take it from me, these people are quickly denied their scheme as I inform them that the normal queue line is shaded and/or ADA compliant (depending on the circumstance and the ride). It was typically only the parties with autistic children that were given the GAC card which has specific language saying to use alternate entrance. Shame on anyone who would make something like that up, but if they have the conscious to do that, then I'm sure Karma will even things out.

In terms of the child swap fastpass scheme, maybe I am not following you correctly. You are right that a child swap card acts as a fastpass, but someone still needs to wait in the normal queue line. If a guest came up to me asking for that card and then the first guest tried to use their fast pass ticket to NOT wait in the normal line, I would not give them the child swap pass. I would tell them that if your party all has fastpass tickets, then you would not need the child swap pass since all it does is act as a fastpass AFTER the first part of the party waited in the normal line.

I know that everyone at the attraction followed these guidelines, and while I cannot speak for every other attraction in the resort, I am sure that many CM's (if not most) are still trained this way.

[RumRunner31]

Originally Posted by filmfreak11

Huh, but I'm sure some still bring some sort of doctor's note or paper work, right?

Anyways, I don't know about WDW, but DL's GACs don't seem to be color-coded. Then some are upset about what type of GAC they were issued.

The main reason for my post is the number of guests in the party. Too many people try to abuse that as well. The max is 6 but a group of 15 show up instead.

Some do, and I'm always happy to look at it if you offer it, but I can't ever ASK to see anything. Besides, most of the time a Dr.'s note simply states the guest's disability and says something along the lines of "Any special assistance you can offer to help would be appreciated." - and since a GAC is based on what obstacles the regular queue present, not on the disability, a Dr.'s note usually offers me no help.

And no, they're not color-coded at DL. They are all the same card and different types of assistance mean different stamps on them. The problems arise when someone figures out that one stamp gets them on a ride faster than another, so they start DEMANDING a specific stamp regardless of whether or not it's appropriate for their condition. They may only have problems with stairs, but the stairs stamp doesn't get you on the ride as fast as the one given to someone with severe autism, so they lie.

As far as the number of guests, it's stopped at 6 unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances (IE: It's one mom with 6 kids, so she can't leave one waiting alone while the others ride, so we issue a 7). If they get to the attraction with a 6 stamp and try to take 12 people with them, it's up to the attractions CM to make the exception or not. I have yet to see ANY attractions CM allow more than 1 extra person with a GAC.

[KENfromOC]

As far as the special assistance tickets (etc.) go, Disney should make it clear you wait in line as does everyone else. I thought the policy always was (at least at Disneyland) that the person in the wheel chair would be escourted to the load area, usually via the exit, but would have to wait until their party made it through the line until they got to board. That's the way it should be. If for some reason you have all members in your party needing special assistance, then at the very least they should wait for however long the projected time would be for anyone else (i.e. "The wait time from this point is 30 minutes", then they would have to wait a similar length of time on the sidelines.)

As far as the pin trading thing goes, in my opinion the whole thing has gotten way out of hand. They use to be an inexpensive way to take a momento home form the park, but now Disney charges up to $15 for these stupid things! But on the other hand, there are plenty of morons who fess up the $$$ !!! At the very least (again), the CM's should be taken out of the equation all together, letting the guest fight over the value of each pin.

[DannyB]

About five months after my 4 year-old son was diagnosed with Type-1 diabetes, we took a trip to Disneyland. We had heard that that would qualify us for an SAP (this was in 2001), so we stopped in City Hall to get one. The justification in our minds was that if his blood sugar went too low, we wouldn't want to lose our place in a long line just to get him some food.

We headed to Fantasyland. Standing by the exit gate to the Mad Tea Party, waiting to be let in ahead of the people standing in line, I started thinking about how I wanted to raise our son. I wanted his life to be as normal as possible, with no special favors or privileges. It dawned on me that we didn't really need the SAP, that we did, in fact, have snacks with us in case his blood sugar went low ... and as it turned out, the only really low blood sugar episode of the day came while we were waiting in the SAP line for Splash Mountain.

We've never asked for an SAP (or GAC) since.

I don't know why people feel the need to cheat the system. Just knowing how to use the fastpass system to its full advantage gives one quite an edge over many park-goers. Now that we have deluxe annual passes, if we're there on an exceptionally busy day, we'll decide to save Space Mountain (for example) for another day, since there are so many people present for whom this might be the one time in their life to ride. We, on the other hand, can just come back next week.

Another thought: Over the course of a day, about how many extra minutes in line do cheaters cost the rest of us? Yes, people cut, but I doubt it costs us more than 10 minutes of line-waiting--and maybe less. It's not worth getting upset over.

[PeoplemoverMatt]

News flash Kevin - there are 'foulfellows' amongest all of us in the human race. They have existed in every civilized system ever known. They currently exist in every current civilized system known. They will exist in every future civilized system. Since there is no perfect cheater-free system scheme, and there will never be one, cheaters will always exist.

On that basis, your implied thesis "Since _______ allows cheating, _______ invites cheating, and is therefore something that should not exist" is quite troubling. Should we just remove all fountain machines, wheelchairs, GAC's, pin trading, and FastPasses from all parks just because there are a few cheaters out there? Hardly.

Being an educator of sorts, I turn to the education system in this country, similar to how you cited the 75% stat, simply because most school systems these days engrain children with "the ends justify the means" mindset. Kids are trained to solely focus on the desired goal/outcome, and not care about the legitimacy of the means used to get there. History classes, especially, are wrought with stories supporting this mindset. It's an unfortunate thing, but it leads to people cheating every system that ever exists because the end, not the means, is what's valued.

[davidgra]

Where does one draw the line between "working the system" and "cheating"?

As WDW AP-holders, my family knows its way around the parks. We know where to stand in the stretch rooms at the Haunted Mansion to ensure that we're the first through the door. We know how to get through the pre-show rooms at Test Track without having to stand through the pre-show. We know how to get a table in a table-service restaurant when you don't have a reservation.

Are these things "cheating"? To some people, they probably are. We don't jump lines, we don't bring picnic lunches with us, we don't abuse the FastPass system, but we do "work the system" to our advantage wherever possible.

Is knowing which rides benefit from the use of a FastPass and which don't an advantage? Sure -- we've never stood in the stand-by line for Soarin', but we've never used a FastPass for Mickey's Philharmagic.

We don't consider ourselves "cheaters." But are we?