6/30: Hail to the Chiefs

[vfire]

Originally Posted by Pete's Dragon

See this is where I will have to disagree with you, I think HOP is a valued part of the Magic Kingdom. Walt was always a huge proponent of remembering and honoring our past.

You answered your own question there. Walt was a proponent of honoring our PAST, not the present. Obama is the present, thanks.

[vfire]

Originally Posted by whoRU

Walt wanted this in DL. He was thinking of having a side street off Main called Liberty St. I feel this is one of the better attraction in the Magic Kingdom, reguardless of one's views. So you don't want a TomorrowLand? Just fantasy and ye olde yesteryear?

It's called TomorrowLand, not PresentLand, thanks for playing.

I voted for Obama and I like him a lot, but I don't want him or his image ANYWHERE in or near the parks. I don't want any current politicians or political figures anywhere in or near the parks. Don't you folks get enough politics in "real" life without needing to bring it into the parks?

It smacks of propagandizing anyway. Just imagine the new Shanghai park having a Communist Square with an AA of Hu Jin-tao extolling the virtues of the party and Lei Feng. With Obama or McCain it is exactly the same thing, except you all were born into the American (not Chinese) system so you suck up some soppy US liberty story as gospel rather than question the veracity of the message by a mega-corporation and its ideological interests.

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by vfire

If they kept it to presidents long dead it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is the attraction highlights the present, which takes people into current reality and out of the Magic Kingdom.

Because the story includes the present - the story is about the Presidents of the country - which didn't stop with people long dead.

Originally Posted by vfire

No, it's a hybrid that doesn't work. If it simply concentrated on history from olde yesteryear then it would be fine like Main St. The problem is it features the present with a speech by the current president. Keep the real world out of the park please.

[...]
If you had my short post then you'd realize what you wrote above is a straw man. They key to what you fail to see is the difference between focusing on a century or more ago, and today.

So 30 seconds or so of one attraction destorys the entire land for you? Guess that modern photo processing center and hat stiching stuff on Main Street ruins that too? Or the fact Main Street actually sells all modern stuff?

Sure you can't not like things.. but don't call the whole place done or crap because of 30 seconds inside one attraction. It's melodramatic.

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by vfire

They both post personal attacks on Kevin Yee stating how much they loathe his articles yet it's supposed be their first post on MC. I've noticed this trend in Kevin's articles where he attracts "first-time" poster attacks again and again.

Just use the report button - they'll look into it, no need to post here. First time posters on MiceAGE articles isn't uncommon because people are usually from the MiceAGE site, not the MiceCHAT site that may decide to comment on the piece.

[vfire]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

Because the story includes the present - the story is about the Presidents of the country - which didn't stop with people long dead.

But actual Main St. doesn't stop in 1910, it's a continuous evolution but I don't think we'd want Disney to show that evolution down the block. We want it frozen in time.

You can have a Hall of Presidents without every single president. Have just the generally considered major ones in history up to Kennedy, and that would keep current politics out of the attraction and still be historical. The roll call lags anyway.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

So 30 seconds or so of one attraction destorys the entire land for you?

It doesn't destroy the land, but it does blight the attraction. A Liberty Square with a '76 theme would be cool, but that's not what it is.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

Guess that modern photo processing center and hat stiching stuff on Main Street ruins that too? Or the fact Main Street actually sells all modern stuff?

First there's a difference in debating over-merchandising the park versus thematic appropriateness. I think we're debating the latter, and for that I think we mostly accept things like flush toilets, refrigerated beverage stands, etc. In other words, a balance is struck between modern day conveniences and yesteryear theme.

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by vfire

But actual Main St. doesn't stop in 1910, it's a continuous evolution but I don't think we'd want Disney to show that evolution down the block. We want it frozen in time.

So which is it? Frozen in time or doesn't stop in 1910?

The point is a few modern or current references do not bring the whole place down. Yet, you feel addressing all presidents makes Liberty Square as a whole unworthy of being in the park.

Originally Posted by vfire

You can have a Hall of Presidents without every single president. Have just the generally considered major ones in history up to Kennedy, and that would keep current politics out of the attraction and still be historical

The 'Hall of Some Presidents'? If you want just an American history thing.. goto the American Adventure. It's disrespectful to draw your arbitrary line and decide who is good enough or not to include. The story is not exclusive nor time bound.

Originally Posted by vfire

A Liberty Square with a '76 theme would be cool, but that's not what it is.

It's a Colonial Theme with an emphasis on the founding of our country. What would you say it is?

Originally Posted by vfire

I think we're debating the latter, and for that I think we mostly accept things like flush toilets, refrigerated beverage stands, etc. In other words, a balance is struck between modern day conveniences and yesteryear theme.

More like - you don't let the insignificant elements override everything and throw the baby out with the bath water.

The very essence and power of the show is the impossible scenario of having all the Presidents of our country assembled together. Trying to cut that off only exaggerates that it's out of date and lessens the impact of having the full roster.

[Mr Wiggins]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

The very essence and power of the show is the impossible scenario of having all the Presidents of our country assembled together. Trying to cut that off only exaggerates that it's out of date and lessens the impact of having the full roster.

My take is just the opposite: the essence and power of the show is AAs as a time machine in a show that brings American history to life, not guys I saw on CNN the night before.

As soon as Carter shows up, I'm rolling my eyes. By Clinton, I'm groaning. By the second Bush, I'm outta there.

To me, "dated" it what it should be. As in timeless. As in not the present. As in no AA's of live guys!

One look at Robo-Obama and Robo-Bush and I wonder what's next, a mobile Walt AA that gives you personal tours of the Magic Kingdom? A Lilian AA that rides in the caboose with you?

Argh.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Correct me if I'm wrong... It's always featured ALL the presidents, including the current one.

[Pete's Dragon]

vfire I think you are confusing politics with partisanship and the two don't neccesarily go hand in hand.

I can't imagaine an arbitary and innoucuous statement by our current president at the attraction would jar you so out of reality. If Disney allowed a partisan speech every four or eight years then I would assuredly be on your side.


Like flynnibus said, you can't have an attraction called the Hall of President's without including everyone. With your idea of focuins only on select Presidents, who would you choose to focus on? And by your logic wouldn't that decision be more partisan than including every single one?

Are you for eliminating the attraction? I think you go down a slippery slope when deciding what in your mind is political and what is not.

[barnum01]

Not sure how many posts I have, but I'm sure it's not many. I am a daily reader of MiceAge, however, and look forward to Kevin's articles as WDW is my "home" resort. I've even gone so far as to read Kevin's pieces still archived on various other Disney sites. For those of you that do not know, Kevin is a college professor, and as such, some of his posts tend towards the intellectual (this one is a far cry from his fairy tale lecture/posts though).

Kevin, thank you for a well-written, well-thought out article. As a fellow educator, I find myself constantly checking to ensure my personal polictical beliefs are not injected into my teaching. So much so that I've been told I go overboard in being neutral and presenting all sides to an argument, discussion, or what have you. I have a feeling this is what is going on here. From the videos I have seen, there nothing overly political in the presentation that has to be political by virtue of its very premise. I feel that the presidents chosen to be highlighted were chosen because they are viewed as historically popular, even though history has been kinder to their popularity and legacy than some of their contemporaries would have been.

I agree with you that logos is far more evident in this presentation than the pathos so clearly evident in the previous incarnations (and in The American Adventure, as well). I see this presentation as more of a sociological argument than a political one. The American society culminated in the past historic election and its the historical and sociological significance of the election that is being celebrated rather than the political leanings of the current president. The show would have been different had John McCain won, but it still would have changed. Wondering how different it would have been is moot because Barack Obama won the election and joined the brotherhood displayed on stage. When a female president is elected, the brotherhood will be changed as well, and so too will WDI have impetus to celebrate the historical and sociological significance of that event.

Thanks again Kevin for another insightful piece.

Dan Skrovan

[sunrider]

i always thought they added the president when he was out of office....isnt this a bit premature?

[Ride Warrior]

Originally Posted by sunrider

i always thought they added the president when he was out of office....isnt this a bit premature?

I don't think there is a consistant policy. If John McCain had won the presidency, his AA would be being added right now, as well. For one thing, I think Disney is anxious to show off it's upgraded technology.

[vfire]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

So which is it? Frozen in time or doesn't stop in 1910?

Frozen in time, of course, like Main St. USA.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

The point is a few modern or current references do not bring the whole place down. Yet, you feel addressing all presidents makes Liberty Square as a whole unworthy of being in the park.

As Wiggins said, seeing an AA of a guy I just saw all over TV the night before and in my morning newspaper most definitely takes me out of MK's magical illusion.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

The 'Hall of Some Presidents'? If you want just an American history thing.. goto the American Adventure. It's disrespectful to draw your arbitrary line and decide who is good enough or not to include. The story is not exclusive nor time bound.

Making judgments of what to include or not is part of any attraction's genesis. Have you never read any of those "best" or "most important" president lists that historians trot out in their journals or the NYT/WaPo? The story can certainly be exclusive or time-bound, just like any story can be. To argue otherwise is to fail to understand narrative control and limits.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

It's a Colonial Theme with an emphasis on the founding of our country. What would you say it is?

Sounds good to me, and since we agree the emphasis is on the founding of the country why are there moderns in the attraction?

Originally Posted by flynnibus

More like - you don't let the insignificant elements override everything and throw the baby out with the bath water.

Obama's AA is a pretty significant part of the show, and it reeks of politics... current politics. Even if it's not overtly partisan (and that's debatably subjective), it's still political and sullies the Magic Kingdom. Even if they're politicians I voted for, I don't want their manifest unctuousness in the park.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

The very essence and power of the show is the impossible scenario of having all the Presidents of our country assembled together. Trying to cut that off only exaggerates that it's out of date and lessens the impact of having the full roster.

Actually it would make the attraction timeless to have a cut-off point. This is why Lincoln works so well at DL, and HoP invites catcalls and hissing. I wouldn't blame Republicans (and others) for boo-ing the Obama AA as I can certainly understand their disgust with real-life politics being shoved in their face while they're on vacation. I voted for Obama but it makes me squirm in my seat and roll my eyes as well.

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by vfire

As Wiggins said, seeing an AA of a guy I just saw all over TV the night before and in my morning newspaper most definitely takes me out of MK's magical illusion.

Something doesn't have to be 'old' to be magical. That is unless you have some time machine in your house where George and Obama hang out together.

Originally Posted by vfire

Making judgments of what to include or not is part of any attraction's genesis

If you listen to the script - you find that the binding theme of the attraction is about the ROLE and significance of the President - not the acts of the individuals. This isn't 'The Hall of George Washington' - it's what he helped start and set the standard for.

Originally Posted by vfire

Have you never read any of those "best" or "most important" president lists that historians trot out in their journals or the NYT/WaPo? The story can certainly be exclusive or time-bound, just like any story can be. To argue otherwise is to fail to understand narrative control and limits.

Then you'd be changing what the attraction is and you'd be focusing on the successes of particular people. That's never been the focus of this attraction.

Originally Posted by vfire

Sounds good to me, and since we agree the emphasis is on the founding of the country why are there moderns in the attraction?

Try sticking to a topic. You said Liberty Square isn't something.. and then it is.. and then it's not. I say again.. if you let 2 minutes of one piece of an attraction define the entire land in your eyes.. I'd say please step back and look at the forrest.

Originally Posted by vfire

Obama's AA is a pretty significant part of the show, and it reeks of politics... current politics. Even if it's not overtly partisan (and that's debatably subjective), it's still political and sullies the Magic Kingdom. Even if they're politicians I voted for, I don't want their manifest unctuousness in the park.

If acknowledging someone is the president is getting political... then I suggest living under a rock may be the best way to insulate yourself. It's simple acknowledgment of who is the president - not being political.

Originally Posted by vfire

Actually it would make the attraction timeless to have a cut-off point. This is why Lincoln works so well at DL, and HoP invites catcalls and hissing.

You mean why no one went and saw the Lincoln show? It was that much better? And as much as everyone wants to make this behavior out to be in the HoP we can note it went for decades without such issues.. and maybe the problem is the guests not the show. Besides, I've never had that problem once in the show. I can't help think that this behavior is exaggerated on the forums.

[Sir_Cliff]

Nationalist histories always involve a teleology of progress. It makes sense that WDI would present a show like this as a recounting of the American journey through history which will have been leading up to the present as a culmination of all that has come before it and inevitably progressing toward an even brighter future. As this is a show that concentrates on America's leaders, the leaders will naturally be the symbolic embodyment of that narrative of progress.

Perhaps Obama fits such a narrative more easily than some other presidents due to issues of race and the still-fresh theme of hope in a time of crisis surrounding his election, but, from the sounds of it, this show doesn't sound like a partisan political statement to me. In time, whatever their feelings about him personally, patriotic conservatives will likely be proud that America was capable of looking beyond race to elect someone like Obama even if they wish it hadn't personally been him and his policies! The Hall of Presidents will just as likely feature a similar theme with the next president, with the presentation summing up American history as a narrative moving ever forward with the current president symbolically representing the culmination of America's journies up until the present.

In short, I think you may be reading a bit too much into it!