6/30: Hail to the Chiefs

[twobluestripes]

Originally Posted by Pete's Dragon

I am going to have to disagree with Kevin's column. As a conservative, I see no problem in building the show's consensus around the theme of Obama's historic election. This is Disney we are talking about, and the allure of beefing up an attraction riding the wave of Obama's popularity is a smart business move.

Reading the reviews of the show the interpretation I got was that the country's history guided us to this historic moment-when an African-American would take the oath of office. I don't think this in any way was an affirmation of Obama's politics over McCain's politics, on the contrary I think all would agree that Disney would have done the exact same show had Colin Powell been our first African-American President.

By all indications the show is not an affirmation of a particular ideology, but of the country's progression towards a melting pot of equal individuals which I don't think is the ideological domain of one party over the other. As a conservative I have no problems with the show I have seen on Youtube. Sure, I wish they acknowledged the presidencey of Reagan more, but that small complaint doesn't change the fact that the show shouldn't be offensive to conservatives or for that matter individuals who voted for McCain.

I'm only reading the first page of this huge thread, as I don't want to get all political and nit-picky. But I've got to agree with Pete's Dragon, because I too noticed that Kevin repeatedly said that the show made it seem as if Obama was supposed to be elected and that history was leading up to him. Perhaps this is true in a way and the show reflects it, but it's not that history was leading up to Obama specifically... It's that history was leading up to a president who was not an old white man. I too believe the show would be the same no matter what the politics of Obama were, and that it would be the same if the first black prez was Colin Powell, or even that it would be the same if the big change was not in race but in gender (If Hillary had won). This show is celebrating the fact that America had always done things differently and is meant to be about the people (though we haven't always done it that way). We have a huge diversity that we try to celebrate and have our government reflect our population (even though it really hasn't and still doesn't). A momentus occasion such as electing an executive leader who is non-white reflects that the country is moving forward in this, and the show is celebrating it. Electing John McCain (or any other candidate last year besides Hillary) certainly would not produce this show because it would not be progress in that specific department. I really don't think it's a matter (or endorsement) of any candidate's politics, but is instead a matter about the historic issues of race and gender (and more) in this country, and celebrating us making good on our over 200 years worth of talk about human equality.

[LuckyJack65]

Monday, June 29 I took my sister to MK to celebrate her 42nd birthday. I wasn't expecting HOP to be opened yet, so casually walked past it heading toward the riverboat. However, my sister saw people walking into the attraction, and so we went into the theatre lobby. The theatre seats quickly filled completely.
During the entire show we were engaged, entertained and enlightened by the presentation, as well as moved by speeches made by Lincoln, Washington and Obama. Afterwards, the audience sat still for a few moments and then broke out into a rousing applause.
From the conversations I heard around me the show was a big hit and thoroughly enjoyed. Coming into the July 4 holiday I felt privileged to be reminded again of the importance of being an American citizen and how "one of us" is elected our leader.
No matter your political views, please take a moment to see this show while visiting MK. It truly encourages us to celebrate our Constitutional rights and our countries historical leadership.

[Barbaraann]

I have only seen this attraction once before. Quite honestly, it was years ago, and it did not really impress me. I think, now that it has been redone, it's time that I go see it again. I enjoy Liberty Square. I always spend a good amount of time there. This time, I will make the Hall of Presidents my first stop.

[Lore]

HoP, along with the rest of WDW are visited heavily by people from other countries. It sounds like this show, with less focus on patriotism and more focus on logic, combined with the overwhelmingly popular (at least overseas) Obama, should make this show generally work better at WDW. This is more like the International Hall of Presidents WDW needed. Yes, WDW needed an IHOP.

Hopefully the Disneyland Lincoln show will be the over the top patriotism, because I enjoy that as well. Frankly, I'm just glad an animatronic show in the news again. People need to be reminded that Disney Parks(tm) have more than just Disney Rides(tm).

[KevinYee]

IHOP!! I love it!!

[konekobus]

Originally Posted by Lore

HoP, along with the rest of WDW are visited heavily by people from other countries. It sounds like this show, with less focus on patriotism and more focus on logic, combined with the overwhelmingly popular (at least overseas) Obama, should make this show generally work better at WDW. This is more like the International Hall of Presidents WDW needed. Yes, WDW needed an IHOP.

You have no idea how weird an attraction like this looks to people from other countries. Or at least to me, a Dutch guy.
And I'm not talking about making your past and current leaders into animatronics But the praising of America.. With music and flags and everything. And you think it's less patriotic than it should be in Disneyland!?
I'm not saying it's wrong.
This just... Already looks like something a USSR or China or North Korea would do..
I can't imagine a show like this in Paris with Sarkozy, praising their country Or in Tokyo with ... well I don't know who their president is, I lost track.
But that's all besides the point perhaps. It's all very fascinating

And I think, would Sarah Palin become President one day, they would make the show revolve around her being the first woman as well. As they should.
Just by looking at all those old white guys sitting there, you can see what a revolution the election of Obama is.
One of which all Americans should be proud, by the way.

[JohnnyQuest]

Originally Posted by konekobus

You have no idea how weird an attraction like this looks to people from other countries. Or at least to me, a Dutch guy.
And I'm not talking about making your past and current leaders into animatronics But the praising of America.. With music and flags and everything. And you think it's less patriotic than it should be in Disneyland!?
I'm not saying it's wrong.
This just... Already looks like something a USSR or China or North Korea would do...

I know Holland often does things differently from the rest of the world, but don't you have any shows that honor your country's history? Any festivals commemorating famous leaders or important events? Not even a display with an animatronic boy saving the town by putting his finger in the dike?!?

OK, I'm kidding with that last one, but national pride is hardly exclusive to the USA, or any other bloated superpower for that matter. Look at any Olympic opening ceremony for an equally patriotic display. I don't know how popular (or un-) that Sarkozy may be, but I know the French are fiercely proud of their art, food, culture, etc...

[vfire]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

Something doesn't have to be 'old' to be magical. That is unless you have some time machine in your house where George and Obama hang out together.

Look across the Esplanade at DCA for your counter-example. It featured a journey to California TODAY even though we were already in California TODAY, and the park underperformed terribly. Now, it's being revamped with a yesteryear theme because guests want to go someplace they've never been and can't go to. We can all see Obama on the news, there's no need to have him in the park as well. We already live in that reality, and a visit to a Disney park is to escape that reality.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

If you listen to the script - you find that the binding theme of the attraction is about the ROLE and significance of the President - not the acts of the individuals. This isn't 'The Hall of George Washington' - it's what he helped start and set the standard for.

Did you read Werner's most recent column on the attraction. The narrative can be changed, and the current one was only put into place in the 90s.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

Then you'd be changing what the attraction is and you'd be focusing on the successes of particular people. That's never been the focus of this attraction.

So what? If it doesn't work well then change it.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

Try sticking to a topic. You said Liberty Square isn't something.. and then it is.. and then it's not. I say again.. if you let 2 minutes of one piece of an attraction define the entire land in your eyes.. I'd say please step back and look at the forrest.

I've been consistent the entire thread saying that Liberty Square should be about the past, it should hearken back to 1776 and yesteryear, and to get rid of the moderns.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

If acknowledging someone is the president is getting political... then I suggest living under a rock may be the best way to insulate yourself. It's simple acknowledgment of who is the president - not being political.

Any time you display a political leader's image, it is inherently a political act. How a newspaper even frames a photograph of Obama is a political act. You've evidently never been to a country where a "dear leader's" photo is displayed in gratutious public places and do not understand political communication.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

You mean why no one went and saw the Lincoln show? It was that much better?

We'll see in December when it reopens, but I think those awful headphones were one reason the attraction was under-attended. Then again, it's not like the 50th film was packing them in either. I think the new Lincoln show is going to surprise people with healthy attendance numbers.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

And as much as everyone wants to make this behavior out to be in the HoP we can note it went for decades without such issues.. and maybe the problem is the guests not the show. Besides, I've never had that problem once in the show. I can't help think that this behavior is exaggerated on the forums.

If you read Werner's column, you will note the show was considerably changed in the 90s to include active participation by the current POTUS. Having him simply stand/sit there and nod in the roll call is quite different from having him go on pontificating for up to a minute. Has the catcalling been exaggerated? I don't know, but maybe Kevin can attend 200 shows straight to do a study.

[vfire]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

I know Holland often does things differently from the rest of the world, but don't you have any shows that honor your country's history? Any festivals commemorating famous leaders or important events? Not even a display with an animatronic boy saving the town by putting his finger in the dike?!?

OK, I'm kidding with that last one, but national pride is hardly exclusive to the USA, or any other bloated superpower for that matter. Look at any Olympic opening ceremony for an equally patriotic display. I don't know how popular (or un-) that Sarkozy may be, but I know the French are fiercely proud of their art, food, culture, etc...

The difference is that Europeans (and Latin Americans too) would celebrate the culture, but not the politicians and the state symbols like the flag.

[konekobus]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

I know Holland often does things differently from the rest of the world, but don't you have any shows that honor your country's history? Any festivals commemorating famous leaders or important events? Not even a display with an animatronic boy saving the town by putting his finger in the dike?!?

OK, I'm kidding with that last one, but national pride is hardly exclusive to the USA, or any other bloated superpower for that matter. Look at any Olympic opening ceremony for an equally patriotic display. I don't know how popular (or un-) that Sarkozy may be, but I know the French are fiercely proud of their art, food, culture, etc...

Yes, ofcourse we have things like that (although I can't think of any..). Ah we celebrate the birthday of the Queen! Although that doesn't have anything to do with being proud..
All countries are proud of themselves in one way or the other.
And maybe we Dutch are extremely different from the rest... The Dutch prime minister, I think it was, has even complained that Dutch should stop thinking patriotism is a bad thing.
I think lot of Dutch are patriotic though, and not all of them in a good way. But it's expressed in different ways than making animatronics of our country's founders, waving flags and playing the anthem... It's expressed in hate towards immigrants and stuff like that

But the French are supposed to be very patriotic ofcourse. They have july the fourteenth and stuff..
Yet even they wouldn't dream about putting an attraction like this in Disneyland Paris.... I'd think.
Maybe I'm wrong though.

But this is not the place to discuss this.

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by vfire

Look across the Esplanade at DCA for your counter-example. It featured a journey to California TODAY even though we were already in California TODAY, and the park underperformed terribly. Now, it's being revamped with a yesteryear theme because guests want to go someplace they've never been and can't go to. We can all see Obama on the news, there's no need to have him in the park as well. We already live in that reality, and a visit to a Disney park is to escape that reality.

The HoP has always been about history and not an idealized fantasy version like most of DL's references. So trying to bring DCA in to muddy the waters doesn't work. Walt adored history, and his vision for HoP and Mr Lincoln was one in celebrating history - not making up some fantasized version their past.

Originally Posted by vfire

Did you read Werner's most recent column on the attraction. The narrative can be changed, and the current one was only put into place in the 90s.

I don't need to read Werner's column. I've been visiting the attraction myself since the late seventies.

Originally Posted by vfire

So what? If it doesn't work well then change it.

If people thought it didn't work.. sure. But you seem to be in the minority on that point.

Originally Posted by vfire

I've been consistent the entire thread saying that Liberty Square should be about the past, it should hearken back to 1776 and yesteryear, and to get rid of the moderns.

And it does do that - sans you being fixated on 2 minutes of the HoP and Obama. Nevermind that the entire cast of 43 presidents has no place in '76 either. As the role of president didn't come about until 1789 and only the first four were players in the establishment of the country. So you should really be about ripping out the entire HoP - not just 'the moderns' as you speak of it.

Originally Posted by vfire

Any time you display a political leader's image, it is inherently a political act. How a newspaper even frames a photograph of Obama is a political act. You've evidently never been to a country where a "dear leader's" photo is displayed in gratutious public places and do not understand political communication.

So my encyclopedia is actually political propaganda? Honestly.. you're stretching hard now. Comparing putting up billboards of yourself to acknowledging someone's position is just absurd. By this logic, CNN is a puppet of Venezuela's propaganda machine anytime they show Hugo Chaveaz.

[Pete's Dragon]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

The HoP has always been about history and not an idealized fantasy version like most of DL's references. So trying to bring DCA in to muddy the waters doesn't work. Walt adored history, and his vision for HoP and Mr Lincoln was one in celebrating history - not making up some fantasized version their past.



I don't need to read Werner's column. I've been visiting the attraction myself since the late seventies.



If people thought it didn't work.. sure. But you seem to be in the minority on that point.



And it does do that - sans you being fixated on 2 minutes of the HoP and Obama. Nevermind that the entire cast of 43 presidents has no place in '76 either. As the role of president didn't come about until 1789 and only the first four were players in the establishment of the country. So you should really be about ripping out the entire HoP - not just 'the moderns' as you speak of it.


So my encyclopedia is actually political propaganda? Honestly.. you're stretching hard now. Comparing putting up billboards of yourself to acknowledging someone's position is just absurd. By this logic, CNN is a puppet of Venezuela's propaganda machine anytime they show Hugo Chaveaz.

[vfire]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

The HoP has always been about history and not an idealized fantasy version like most of DL's references.

Exactly, thank you, which is why it doesn't work well in the Magic Kingdom. Transfer it to Epcot's American Pavilion and it would work better.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

So trying to bring DCA in to muddy the waters doesn't work. Walt adored history, and his vision for HoP and Mr Lincoln was one in celebrating history - not making up some fantasized version their past.

Walt proposed Liberty Square but never built it in DL. And DCA is quite an apt comparison. HoP brings guests to the timeline of reality that we already live in, and so did the original DCA. Do they not have this inscription at the Magic Kingdom: "Here you leave today and enter the world of Yesterday, Tomorrow, and Fantasy." We're supposed to leave today, not get thrust back into it.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

I don't need to read Werner's column. I've been visiting the attraction myself since the late seventies.

So you don't want to read the column to see that your memory might be faulty.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

If people thought it didn't work.. sure. But you seem to be in the minority on that point.

Attendance has not been one of HoP's strong points. And what's the sample to say my view is in the minority?

Originally Posted by flynnibus

And it does do that - sans you being fixated on 2 minutes of the HoP and Obama. Nevermind that the entire cast of 43 presidents has no place in '76 either. As the role of president didn't come about until 1789 and only the first four were players in the establishment of the country. So you should really be about ripping out the entire HoP - not just 'the moderns' as you speak of it.

I would not be adverse to ripping out HoP and planting it in Epcot's American Pavilion. Keep Liberty Square to a stylized simulacrum of Revolutionary Era America. And of course that doesn't mean simply one year, 1776, but the period itself; just like Main St. USA is not pigeonholed to one year.

Originally Posted by flynnibus

So my encyclopedia is actually political propaganda? Honestly.. you're stretching hard now. Comparing putting up billboards of yourself to acknowledging someone's position is just absurd. By this logic, CNN is a puppet of Venezuela's propaganda machine anytime they show Hugo Chaveaz.

I don't think you've ever studied media or worked in the field. But certainly an encyclopedia has propaganda in it (writers and editors have biases, conscious or not), and definitely the way CNN portrays Chavez can be biased (against him in their case). Once you pick up a camera to shoot a political figure you are committing a political act since the angle you shoot at (low, high, medium) and the composition of the frame itself will bias the opinions of viewers. And that's even before editing the footage! Your definition of political is far too narrow and simple, but this isn't the proper place to school you on the subject.

[flynnibus]

Keep your reality - I'll stick with ours. I'm done here.

[NeverNeverland]

No desire to see Obama give the oath again, but I would never boo. I don't think the MK should be as political as this, but it is hard to have an attraction like the HOP w/o being political.