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  1. #1

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    Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    I know I'm going to get taken to task for this like I did before, but while I was just simply concerned about the issue before I feel now that it's something that very seriously needs to be addressed.

    Like many of you I have been playing this game, and one thing I have been impressed by is it's production values. They squeeze so much out of this six year old machine! And the 1930s shorts were short but done very well.

    Something I've noticed is that they've been very careful about the kind of enemy presented here, most of them look like various forms of ink blot figures, others more like alien monsters, and the rest are established Disney villains. The times you hit something that looks most like a person, you can hurt them as a person and must wait for them to become a monster. Deliberate, but the right move to make considering the license.

    However, I just got to what I think is a halfway point last night and I'm upset at what I saw.

    Spoiler
    It looks like I just killed off some guy. Then Goofy took an ambush attack for Mickey, and after a far-too-dramatic mourning scene for something as typical as Goofy getting hit by something big, the Mouse pulled out all his weaponry and began going to town.


    It was at this point where someone in the room said "Mickey Mouse is gonna crack open a can of whoop-***," and that was when what was wrong hit me. I'm not a social prude, I like dirty jokes and the bizarre as much as the next guy. Heck, I've gotten in arguements with "but Disney is for famlies!" people about things like things like Pleasure Island at WDW because I think that not everything ever put out by Disney needs to be made safe for the kid set. That doesn't mean I want to see graphic novels built around the toon properties. These WEREN'T violent characters. They are being portrayed as such now.

    I mean, for heavens sake, DONALD DUCK just hit the finishing blow on some man and caused him to melt into goop. It's almost like playing Muppets Mortal Kombat and seeing Miss Piggy get a Flawless Victory. It's funny by virtue of being so absurd the first time you see it, but here we're actually talking about something that will be sold to millions and is definitely going to wind up in the hands of the children that are watching Toon Disney bright and early while us adults are still in bed.

    Does this seem to be too much for anyone? It doesn't soothe me that merely minutes after the situation in the spoiler box, I was watching a little Pooh story unfold almost exactly like in the toon. I would think with so much of their voice talent and marketing involved that they would know what's going on, but is Disney actively aware of what's going on in this game and still supporting it? Or are they just turning a blind eye from the developer and letting the cards fall where they may?

  2. #2

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    what are you talking about? ...if so..the game won't sell without violence...welcome to reality.....well, some would still buy it, but the fighting makes it somewhat less boring....the running around just looking for stuff gets boring and also costant fighting gets tedious.....i actually stpped playing pretty early on in the game. i hated when goofy and donald joined me.....is that really needed...??

  3. #3

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Edit in italics because I thought of a better, more current example that I actually know about than my SW goat thing.

    You know what? I see your concerns. You make a good point. And when I reached that point in the game, I was extremely devastated by the whole thing, but remembered what Roger Rabbit said: "No one can take a hit like Goofy."

    I do, however, also think that the original shorts were a bit more violent than you remember. Sure, it's slapstick, but that is still violent. Also, the goat in Steamboat Willie was somewhat mistreated if I remember correctly (if I don't please tell me, because I haven't seen SW in quite some time). There is a fair bit of violence toward animals in Disney shorts and films and there are times when our beloved Fab Five is doing the damage. I think we can overlook it in shorts because it's a cartoon.

    Also think of Fantasmic!. Do you like it? I do. In it Mickey kills Maleficent and maybe even the other villians (not sure, they die the same way as Mally after she takes a dive). This is Mickey being violent. Yet he's defending his imagination and his friends. And Maleficent is evil, right? To me, this is the same situation, and I guarantee you that Disney retains creative control over Fantasmic! and knows that Mickey kills someone. So I have to ask again, do you have the same concerns with Fantasmic as you do here?

    In a video game like this, it's not so easy, though. First of all, the medium has been demonized and many people come into it (knowingly or not) with some bit of prejudice. I'm not accusing you specifically, and I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad or wrong thing. Add to this the fact that Kingdom Hearts is a fairly bold and novel use of characters and you get people like you, MickeyMania, who also go into it with a sort of preconceived notion that they aren't going to liek the game or its portrayal of the characters they love. Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all, and please correct me if I'm wrong about this because I'm just going by this and your previous posts in the other KH2 thread.

    I'm really glad that you liked the game. It's my opinion that games should be about suspension of disbelief and suspension of reality. You had that for a bit it sounds like, and now you don't. I'm sorry. Maybe you can finish the game and maybe you can't. That's your choice and again I can see where you're coming from. I respectfully disagree with your idea of the game's wrongful characterization of Mickey and Co. I enjoyed the game and I enjoyed the new prism through which to view a familiar character whom I've often (tragically) seen pigeonholed as a "kiddy thing" by the veyr people who are now playing this game. If this brings one FInal Fantasy fan into Disney, then I don't see a problem with minor tweaks. If this brings one too-cool-for-Disney person over to a love or even appreciation of Disney, then I don't see a problem with minor tweaks.

    Just my two cents. Take it for what you will. I don't by any means mean to attack you and I hope I've been clear and respectful.
    Last edited by Small Panda After All; 04-08-2006 at 03:53 PM.
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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    I STRONGLY agree with Small Panda! The game does not take these characters to the extreme like you said! When i was at that part, I was like "No, I bet you Goofy'll come back, come on, he gets hit ALL the time in the toons"!

    I owe my life to KH, though I'm not a crazed fanatic like other ppl. I was one of those FF fans who HATED disney, but then after playing KH, i realized what I've been missing!I read more about Disney, watched the movies, and studied! Then I made my first travels to DL! Yes thats right, it's because of KH! So this is all a chain to me that i feel is my destiny(i know it sounds cheezy, but i believe in it)! First I discovered FF, which led to KH, which led to Disney, which led to the movies, which came to Disneyland, and finnally my carreer choice, Imagineering! Some people dont understand the gravity of how much KH changed my life dramatically, some even laugh, but I owe it to KH for my career choice! If it werent for KH, I wouldn't even be here, reading this and posting this message!

    To conclude, Mickey Mania, KH does not overuse the Disney characters, it enhances them to the point where ppl just love it! And it keeps each and every single character's traits! This is a fact, so dont think KH is doing wrong by this, they are just making it better. Ok, I'm done.

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    FI, they do have the characters personalities down all right (although the voice of Goofy seems like he's overdoing it a little bit) but I'm more talking about their roles in the game's plot and fighting.

    I'm still playing the game because I enjoy it. The combat is a little repetitive, yes, but I can get enjoyment just watching the characters walk around. Donald's butt swinging around when he walks, the kangaroos from Pooh hopping around the map, etc. The animation is incredibly on the mark.

    I'm not concerned about the impact the game has on ME while playing it, but on others, especially the Toon Disney set. Mickey Mouse has always been that neighborly good-natured model citizen. Donald was created specifically to rid Mickey of the darker side he had in the 30s and 40s because audiences asked Walt to keep Mickey clean. Like you mention with Steamboat Willie, Mickey wasn't always nice to everyone but they sort of started over with him again with Fantasia and his new look in that film. But even the more violent Donald didn't smoke someone by throwing fireballs at them.

    Fantasmic is different because the dragon is a pretty well established Disney villain, and that battle isn't as dramatic ("Uh, this is my dream!" *ZAP* The end) and the fight with the Prince in Sleeping Beauty has more fighting than what you see here. Anybody remember the Dragon with the sword sticking out of it's chest?

    I don't think this will teach kids anything really, to imply it would teach kids to play with fire or something would be stupid beyond belief. However, it does give these characters an edgy mean streak that they do not have in television, film, books/comics, theme park entertainment, etc. WB always had the more edgy cartoon mascots, but when they displayed violent traits it was about 75% of the time comedic violence like a boquet of dynamite sticks dressed as flowers.
    Last edited by MickeyMania; 04-08-2006 at 07:08 PM.

  6. #6

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Not sure why you don't like Goofy's voice... Bill Farmer's been voicing him that way for years.
    -Tim

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Good points, really. And I do agree with you in some ways.

    1) I wouldn't recommend a kid under 11 or 12 play this game becuase it is a bit more edgy than Disney's normal fare.

    2) I think that the game does set up (especially if you've played the first one which I'd imagine most who played the second one have) that the people you are fighting are not nice. They steal hearts. Yes, it is more violent than we see Mickey (and Goofy and Donald to a ceratin extent, but Donald always was a loose cannon of sorts) get, but if you're going to put him in a game what would be more appropriate: Mickey defending himself and his friends or Mickey standing back and letting you protect him, maybe even getting beat on if you're having trouble with the game?

    3) This game isn't only marketed to us Disney geeks. Yes, it's a way for Square Enix and Sony to get more people in the store who wouldn't normally buy video games, but they're also relying on the FF fanbase (especially with the new movie coming out this month). If you want to win them over you have to pump it up a notch. I think the changes they made were tasteful enough to still carry the name Disney. Especially since they could have gone way over the edge. I cringe at the thought of a Rambo style Mickey all buffed out with bullets wrapped around him.

    Believe me, I understand your purism about these characters. You should have heard me and my best friend get all upset about Alice being considered a princess in the first one and don't get me started with the marketing of Tink as a princess. But I also think that it was a brilliant way to cross boundaries that otherwise would have remained blocked. I enjoy discussing this with you, I really do as you've brought up some things that I never would have thought of. I'm so glad I'm back here again.
    The King is back and he's ready to kick some tail. Do not mess with a mouse in black.

  8. #8

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    In my opinion the issue comes down to parenting. Maybe the game isn't right for younger kids, but then again I don't think a lot of littler kids would have the patience for this game, it's kind of complicated and the story is very detailed. Furthermore, it's up to the parents to keep an eye on what their kids are playing, and yes marketing should not target the littler kids.

    As for Mickey, there is a reason he is the King in this game. He's got some power, and he's fighting for what's right. Any Disney show, movie, or game needs a conflict and in this case it comes down to very basic good v. evil. I will tell you that Disney is LARGLEY involved in development and really restricts Square in what they do with their characters.

    The truth is, Mickey hasn't been doing much lately (other than the ever-so popular "House of Mouse" and the occasional Christmas movie). I think he needs to change with the times, and I'm just glad that the Disney characters are changing in a good way (ie- not shooting guns, smoking, or other outrageous changes).

    On the surface this game may seem violent, but to me it still has a great story and a great message. It humanises the characters more: I know I would fight to save my friends and family, an like Mickey I'm not normally violent in any way.

    I can see where you're coming from, but I do disagree (and that's okay). It is different, but I'm not sure if I, personally, would go as far as to call it "Inappropriate Use of the Disneyverse."



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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Ok, if its the little ones you care about, I guess your right! i know what you mean, my little brother is very into this game!He's only 7 tho. he has gotten positive and some (if any) negative effects of the game! Here some of the good effects that I noticed in him:

    1) He LOVES Disney A LOT more, and wants to watch all the movies again
    2) He is really getting a kick out of this game, he is more active now
    3) He's spreading it to all his friends(idk if its good or positive)
    4) He is starting to understand more complicated stories(well, he's smater than other kids, so idk about the other ones)

    And here are a few bad effects:

    1) He is growing VERY imapient with the game, he's keep asking me what happens to the extent that he starts getting really mad because i dont want to ruin it for him
    2) He is a little violent, today he got a broom and went outsude with my little sis and started whacking all the weeds, calling them heartless.

    I know where your coming from, but my little b rotherisn't playing with fire or any of that bad stuff! If he wants to, he pops in the game and starts playing! And he LOVES the game in general! Tho, he is confused too, but i try to explain what is happening(but it gets REALLY annoying most of the time because he asks what i just told him!)! But this game is developing his mind to understannd what is good and bad! So i think this game is good for HIM, but idk about other kids because he's smarter than the usual 7 year old.

  10. #10

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Quote Originally Posted by FrumiousBoojum
    Not sure why you don't like Goofy's voice... Bill Farmer's been voicing him that way for years.
    It just sounds like he's laying the Goofyisms on thick. Ultimately the quality would depend on what his Goofy Yell sounds like, but I think Disney keeps a sound file of the original scream that they use for new situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Small Panda After All
    if you're going to put him in a game what would be more appropriate: Mickey defending himself and his friends or Mickey standing back and letting you protect him, maybe even getting beat on if you're having trouble with the game?
    Isn't this the case with Minnie?

    Mickey video games have been done before and they've been done with more lighthearted fun. I'm not talking about that lousy magic mirror game for the Cube that came out years ago, but for the Sega Genesis. Castle of Illusion and Mickey Mania in particular.

    This game isn't only marketed to us Disney geeks.
    The game is owned by Disney. Sora & Friends are owned by Disney. The only part of the game not owned by Disney is the tie-in characters from other video games. If Disney wanted to, they could end their relationship with the developer and take their characters in other ventures and directions without harming the product AFAIK since the other characters are pretty much limited to cameos.

    That's what I'm wondering about. The dramatics of this game's plot make me concerned that Disney is not conciously aware of what's happening here, either that or they are and are making a cash-grab for role playing geeks. I don't know, I just this is the darkest Disney toon offering since Roger Rabbit, but the fab five characters were not nearly as prominent as they are here.

    You may like it, that's your choice. I don't hate it myself, although it does make me concerned and if I was a stockholder or a parent of a young child I would probably write a letter to Disney expressing my concern.

    I cringe at the thought of a Rambo style Mickey all buffed out with bullets wrapped around him.


    don't get me started with the marketing of Tink as a princess. But I also think that it was a brilliant way to cross boundaries that otherwise would have remained blocked.
    Hahahah, they really are marketing her something fierce, aren't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by quasimodo1384
    As for Mickey, there is a reason he is the King in this game. He's got some power, and he's fighting for what's right. Any Disney show, movie, or game needs a conflict and in this case it comes down to very basic good v. evil. I will tell you that Disney is LARGLEY involved in development and really restricts Square in what they do with their characters.
    Interesting. I just brought this up for debate because the last time I saw it and was concerned about the design I hadn't played the game and hadn't given it a fair shake.

    I get what your saying, but for all the times Mickey and Donald and company have crossed the path of Pete, I don't remember them pulling out swords and shields and giving him the bum's rush. Although, to be honest, the Pete fights are where the Toon Combat at this game looks most at home. When Goofy spins like a top and wallops Pete with fists, it looks a lot less strange than when he and Aladdin (just for example) are blasting a guy who looks more like a regular human to pieces.
    Last edited by MickeyMania; 04-08-2006 at 10:42 PM.

  11. #11

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMania
    I get what your saying, but for all the times Mickey and Donald and company have crossed the path of Pete, I don't remember them pulling out swords and shields and giving him the bum's rush. Although, to be honest, the Pete fights are where the Toon Combat at this game looks most at home. When Goofy spins like a top and wallops Pete with fists, it looks a lot less strange than when he and Aladdin (just for example) are blasting a guy who looks more like a regular human to pieces.
    No I get what you're saying too, and I do want to make it clear that I'm not trying to start anything...but I guess I just look at it as "Disney fighting." The bad guys get hit and they see stars...but at least there's not gallons of blood pooring on to the screen like in some video games...that would NOT be right...*shudders*



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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Small Panda After All
    Believe me, I understand your purism about these characters. You should have heard me and my best friend get all upset about Alice being considered a princess in the first one and don't get me started with the marketing of Tink as a princess.
    Well... I think you've misunderstood a couple of points.

    The Queen of Hearts was the one that seemed to want to think Alice was part of the whole line of princesses. Remember that discussion that the circle of villains had about how Alice was not one of them? She's not one of them because she's not a princess.

    Tink isn't being marketed as a princess, either. She's part of the Disney Faries line. Unfortunately, though, they decided they needed to make several new fairies to put into it... what's wrong with the fairies they already had? Sure, Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather may be old, but they're still fairies that kids enjoy. And then there's the fairies of Fantasia, Black Caulrdron, etc... a lot of established Disney Fairies were out there without the need to make a new lineup to get people familiar with.
    -Tim

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Quote Originally Posted by FrumiousBoojum
    Tink isn't being marketed as a princess, either. She's part of the Disney Faries line. Unfortunately, though, they decided they needed to make several new fairies to put into it... what's wrong with the fairies they already had? Sure, Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather may be old, but they're still fairies that kids enjoy. And then there's the fairies of Fantasia, Black Caulrdron, etc... a lot of established Disney Fairies were out there without the need to make a new lineup to get people familiar with.
    Well the way they have marketed the Fairies line has lead them to developing a whole sub-story to the Peter Pan canon, with an enclave of fairies living in Neverland. I don't think there is anything wrong with this - a whole story could be created for these characters, and I know you could compare this to the different princesses interacting, but Neverland and the world of Sleeping Beauty are completely different - at least you could say the princesses are friends with eachother.
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  14. #14

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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    Another thing to look at is how Square (and it was square that made this game by the way... Disney has real problems when it comes to game making) changed the Disney and Square universes to make it more kid friendly. For example:
    1. When Ariel turns human, she is already fully clothed.
    2. When Will Turner threatens to suicide, he never points the pistol at himself
    3. One of Aurons signiture moves from FFX was taking a pull of Saki and then spitting it back on the baddies using some magic... no saki jug at all in this one.
    4. Mickey lives in harmony with the brooms that he brutally killed with an ax in Fantasia.

    Killing of enimies. There are three sets of enimes in this game.
    1. The heartless
    2. The Nobodies
    3. Classic Disney Villans.

    Looking through the hearltess design there are none that look anything like humans.... some look like birds, dogs, or cars, but far enough away from anything in reality. They die by evaporating.

    The classic Disney Villans... well... chances are your children has seen them die already, ususally by the heros of the stories.... plus many of the villians don't die. (Pete, Malificant)

    The nobodies. Here lies the rub, as it were. If you are letting a child play though this game with no parental input, then... well... you shouldn't be doing that. The nobodies in the game are not human at all... as Mickey and YinSid make very clear. And when you fight most of the human forms of the heartless they transform into a more realistic version of what they are. Esp. the final battles.


    the game is rated 10 and up. Video games are fast becoming the premier source of entertainment. Just as Movies, Rock Music, and the Internet faced oppisition as harmfull modes of entertainment, so must Video Games. It won't be long though that they are viewd as viable forms of expression, and even artistic.

    Other Video Game facts?
    1. It has been proven over and over again that Violent video games have no relationship between real life violence in children.
    2. Violent crimes have historly dropped over the past 10 years, at the same time violent video games have increased.
    3. It has been proven that video games not only increase hand-eye cordiation and problem solving skills among young children, it also helps them withstand pain, and is now being used in many hospitals.


    As far as misuse of Disney Characters...

    Minnie fights as well, if you used her correctly. She shoots out pearls just like mickey and uses a very powerfull "Faith" attack in connection to Sora. Chip and Dale are mechanics... how do they do that? This is a story in which the Disney Characters participate. Their roles are the same as in the cartoons where goofy plays a ship builder or a skier.
    Are they more serious? Yes, and I for one couldn't be happier. To see Donald duck sad and stressed due to his concern for a friend, To see Mickey frustruated by the world, to see goofy flusterd by the growing responsiblity... they make the characters more real. Goofy is always goofy, Donald is always short tempered... but this game fleshes them out and makes them more realistic, more lovable.
    If you want the Disney Characters to simply fall over and laugh alot, then don't play the game, it's not what happens. If you want to see them as real, viable characters, characters that kids can relat to alot better than a stagnate fool, then this is a perfect game.
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    Re: Inappropriate use of the Dinseyverse

    ^^^^^ couldnt have said it better myself.

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