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  1. #46

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by egamer25 View Post
    Hm... Tinkerbells wings? Anything else that would make for BAD SHOW!

    Good work on Disneyland's part. It's a show and the patrons deserve to see it in it's fullness if it can be fixed by a 20 minute delay to get it ready.

    I have been to phantom of the opera where we where not allow into the theatre for 45 minutes because they couldn't the chandelier to work and it was stuck mid air. They could have let us in and done the show without it but it would have been bad show so the delayed the show till they could fix it. Providing a good show for us all.
    Exactly! I've even seen Disney Cancel certain shows or parades do to a couple of people calling out that day. With Disney's shows it's either all or nothing.

  2. #47

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustysage View Post
    It would probably be best to set up a web site which allows passholders to pre-purchase World of Color preview tickets for a specific night...
    Have you every tried to buy tickets for the Candlelight Processional?

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    It's good to know that MC has some CMs in its numbers. THis way they can clarify certain details. I am curious to know why Dumbo was a no show, especially since there are YouTube videos of him already. Shame no one took a video of Murphy the Dragon's dress rehearsal but I'm sure TDA is very glad for that small favor. At least the kink (in the neck) was discovered before the general public saw it.
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  4. #49

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcatime View Post
    It's good to know that MC has some CMs in its numbers. THis way they can clarify certain details. I am curious to know why Dumbo was a no show, especially since there are YouTube videos of him already. Shame no one took a video of Murphy the Dragon's dress rehearsal but I'm sure TDA is very glad for that small favor. At least the kink (in the neck) was discovered before the general public saw it.
    I'm guessing it's because Dumbo's ears are basically two giant sails. If it's too windy Dumbo might not be able to fly.
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  5. #50

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Bassbone- You are exactly right! Congrats!

  6. #51

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Have you every tried to buy tickets for the Candlelight Processional?
    Or read Kevin Yee's new column about the online ticket purchasing for the D23 studio tours?

  7. #52

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lutz View Post
    Fantasmic + Fireworks + WWW + APs = Nightmares; Electrical Parade returns to Main Street, More... discuss it all here:

    DIRECT ARTICLE LINK: MiceAge.com - A different look at Disney...
    So, DL is now more crowded when it's cheaper for some people to go than it is when it's expensive for those people (and everyone else) to go.

    IMO, it seems that DL does not provide the value that a full-price ticket costs. It does provide value for third-thru-twentieth visit that a pre-paid annual pass costs. The economy is only exascerbating the problem, but that cannot be controlled. It will ebb and flow.

    The program has caused this problem (as well as every single one), too. Only one solution to the problems is to eliminate the one cause.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  8. #53

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by D.E.1955 View Post
    im actually happy the EP will come back to disneyland hopefully the blue fairy becomes the lead again BUT!!!................they also said back in 96 that it would never come back..it came back as a holiday present but still....they sais it would be gone forever.............so are they going to do this with everything everytime they say it will never lol...well i dont mind im just saying.... i love EP glad its coming back tho =D
    Meh. The people in charge back then are now gone, and good riddance. They didn't know what they were doing, and I don't think current management should have to honor anything they said or did.
    (Cue the Bulldozers...)
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  9. #54

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMoose View Post
    Call me crazy but I like to see Disney do away with the AP at Disneyland. Sounds like booth parks can not handle them anymore.
    An interesting idea....
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  10. #55

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    You're definitely not the only one. The AP concept never made much business sense to me, especially after it reached a certain volume level. Disneyland is essentially a retail environment in which people WILL pay a premium (that's been shown over and over), but they still hold "fire sales." That results in guests who have little incentive to treat their experience at the park as anything particularly special -- they can do this every weekend if they want! So, they don't regard a visit to Disneyland OR the environment itself as particularly special.

    Now, I don't think most diehard Disney fans fall into this category! I'm mostly talking about teenagers and families who look at Disneyland as a cheap thing to do on the weekend. It's basically something they think of as free, so they treat it no better than a public park or a city street.

    Disney responds by trying to drive up attendance even further, because the annual passholders tend to spend very little in the park. So, the park becomes increasingly crowded and unpleasant, cast members are overwhelmed and overworked (leading to higher turnover), and attractions are pushed to their max limits.

    If you did away with the annual pass, you might only really be impacting 700,000 or so people-- but the "high user," the ones who pay the least and visit the most.

    For the first 35 years or so of its life, Disneyland was a DESTINATION, a special experience. You'd pay extra for it. Knott's Berry Farm or Magic Mountain was the weekend "amusement park," Disneyland was, well, Disneyland.

    But when the AP concept really took hold, the whole thing started falling apart. It isn't sustainable, either financially or operationally, but I don't expect Disney to give up-- not easily.

    In the meantime, I've always wondered what would happen if Disney LOWERED its admission price to say $45 for adults and $25 for children -- but offered absolutely no discounts of any kind, ever, except for employee/cast members and multi-day ticket purchases? What would happen if EVERYONE had to pay the same price, if there was no incentive to just "hang out" at Disneyland? Would attendance go down? Likely. Would per-capita spending go up? Also likely, because those in the park would be there as a special occasion, not just to kill a few hours on a Saturday evening.
    Again, some more interesting ideas....
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  11. #56

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by egamer25 View Post
    Why don't they limit annul passholders on premier days. like only allow the first 1000 AP's each day. Thus allowing the Tourists... the ones that will spend the $$ in the parks in. Ap's have become the problem.
    I'm going to put this one aside. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by egamer25 View Post
    I think they should

    1. Get rid of AP's
    2. Lower the overall park ticket price a bit
    3. Define a Child as anyone under 13
    4. Have resident discounts and bouncebacks durring off season and Not durring April-September
    Yes to all.
    Quote Originally Posted by egamer25 View Post
    And if in their infinite wisdome they are going to keep AP then Black them out of all premiers of shows or hold special after hours previews for shows for just APs where it won't affect the regular patrons of the park.
    Don't give them any ideas. Stick to your correct guns.
    Premieres should have been a separate ticket event.
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  12. #57

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    The AP concept never made much business sense to me, especially after it reached a certain volume level.
    In principle, it keeps attendance and the level of spending up (lower from each guest on average but higher overall) during slow times, maximizing the utilization of the park over time (which is good for any financial asset). The problem is that it often works too well and does not appear to be self-adjusting with regard to crowding.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    Disneyland is essentially a retail environment in which people WILL pay a premium (that's been shown over and over), but they still hold "fire sales." That results in guests who have little incentive to treat their experience at the park as anything particularly special -- they can do this every weekend if they want! So, they don't regard a visit to Disneyland OR the environment itself as particularly special.
    There is also psychological pressure to get the most out of something you've already paid for up-front, which is one contributor to the problem. A way to avoid this would be to charge for each admission, obviously, which implies the elimination of APs (at least the SoCal ones). They could be replaced by steep discounts for locals on days that would otherwise be slow--an expanded version of similar discounts used in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    Now, I don't think most diehard Disney fans fall into this category! I'm mostly talking about teenagers and families who look at Disneyland as a cheap thing to do on the weekend. It's basically something they think of as free, so they treat it no better than a public park or a city street.
    Well, before unlimited-ride passports were sold, it didn't cost all that much just to get into Disneyland (I don't remember how much, being a child back then, but my family was dirt-poor and we went several times a year ). How much you spent depended on what you did while at the park, which included rides (the whole A-E ticket thing, although they were actually called coupons or admissions). I seem to recall lines for rides growing quite a bit when people started buying unlimited-ride passports and going on rides like crazy. It was good for business but really taxed the park's ride capacity. If this forum could travel back in time to that era, when both systems were still in use, I can easily imagine us arguing that it was unfair for those who used ride coupons or paid cash to experience an attraction to have to wait in the longer lines created by the unlimited-ride people.

    APs are sort of an extension of the same idea of paying more up-front for unlimited use. However, rather than ride capacity becoming a greater issue--in fact, lines for the major attractions these days seem to be shorter on the whole than they were years ago--park capacity peaks rather brutally on some days, especially with regard to major shows held on the park grounds.

    The question is whether there are enough true and unavoidable problem days to justify major changes to the park's admission policies, which are otherwise highly effective. Conditions may be crowded, but that's only because people keep coming in droves, which indicates that they must be having a good time regardless. It certainly would be nice to know how many complaints Disney gets and what people say on those surveys they're always doing, but I assume that the company will take these data into consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    Disney responds by trying to drive up attendance even further, because the annual passholders tend to spend very little in the park.
    Perhaps on merchandise, which comes as no surprise, but the eateries appear to be well patronized.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    So, the park becomes increasingly crowded and unpleasant, cast members are overwhelmed and overworked (leading to higher turnover), and attractions are pushed to their max limits.
    I agree with everything except perhaps the last point about attraction capacity. Sure, there are some days when every aspect of the parks is overwhelmed, but on the average I recall longer wait times years ago, despite the effect of FastPass on standby lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    For the first 35 years or so of its life, Disneyland was a DESTINATION, a special experience.
    But it used to cost less than $1 to get in (not much even counting for inflation), and might have cost nothing for a while had Walt had his way. It's always a special destination--the problem is that it's being "loved to death" by more and more fans over time. Keep in mind that apart from the company's admission policies, the local population has grown and the company's visibility and influence are more prominent than ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    You'd pay extra for it. Knott's Berry Farm or Magic Mountain was the weekend "amusement park," Disneyland was, well, Disneyland.
    I thought that for many years Disneyland was the foreign element from Los Angeles while Knott's was the beloved local park (it used to have more charm and fewer "amusement park" trappings than it has now). Some people still feel that way, even though Disneyland has managed to overshadow every other park in the region by now. Of course, what you say is true from the larger worldwide perspective, but I think we're primarily using a local perspective in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    But when the AP concept really took hold, the whole thing started falling apart. It isn't sustainable, either financially or operationally, but I don't expect Disney to give up-- not easily.
    Unfortunately, business at this level is not about sustainability but eternal growth (which is ultimately a fallacy, of course, but that's how it works for now). Even when profits are difficult to grow, the company can cite growing attendance to help prop up its stock price. No, they will not give up the numbers that the people themselves create by choosing to go to increasingly crowded parks regardless of the conditions. The company will only really worry when these numbers decline. It's not that I agree with them, it's simply how I believe they view things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armadillo4 View Post
    And I'm taking a wild guess here, but I bet that management at Universal, Six Flags, and Busch Entertainment Corp. would love to have the problems that Disney experienced with Nightastic's opening.
    Right, this sort of thing is to be expected on opening day/weekend, and is indicative of a healthy customer base that will evidently go to great lengths to gain access to the company's product. It may be a logistics nightmare from the perspective of guests and CMs on the front lines, but to corporate executives it's a sweet dream that most never get to experience but would kill to. I recently visited Knott's Berry Farm, for example, and it was almost totally deserted on a June weekend. I'm not sure whether this was just an anomaly, but I bet that they would have loved to have some of Disneyland's problems on that day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armadillo4 View Post
    While the mess in the parks was a failure, I'm sure the suits would rather have this problem to solve vs. trying to deal with low attendance figures.
    It's not as though every day were like this, either. Most days when I'm there are quite reasonable and pleasant regarding crowds and lines, and I usually go on Sundays. Generally speaking, what has happened with Disneyland may be related to what has happened with movies, for example. It used to be that popular movies played for months in theaters after what would be considered a modest opening by today's standards, but these days virtually all of them make a huge portion of their revenue on the first weekend with steep declines afterward. Blame this phenomenon on whatever you will, but the difference in audience behavior (herd mentality) is stark and seems very similar to how so many people have to see or experience something at Disneyland right away instead of waiting for any reason at all. In theory, the self-inflicted suffering that inevitably results should be the deterrent in a self-correcting system of behaviors, but modern Homo sapiens appears to be immune to things like punishment (it only makes them complain more loudly) and learning (common sense is completely subservient to one's desires and the immediate gratification thereof).

    Quote Originally Posted by egamer25 View Post
    Why don't they limit annul passholders on premier days. like only allow the first 1000 AP's each day. Thus allowing the Tourists... the ones that will spend the $$ in the parks in. Ap's have become the problem.
    That seems kind of discriminatory, and would be disappointing to many who drove more than, say, 30 miles only to be turned away. It would be better to block out the dates when possible (obviously they would have to be known ahead of time) if any such measures should be taken at all. Maybe Disney still thinks that people will eventually learn from their experiences. If that is the case, then they do not understand the human species as a whole and are mistaken. Or maybe because they are human themselves, they can't learn either.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolewhipman View Post
    Exactly! I've even seen Disney Cancel certain shows or parades do to a couple of people calling out that day. With Disney's shows it's either all or nothing.
    Sometimes, but they wouldn't let a little missing dragon stop a show, for example.

  13. #58

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post
    A way to avoid this would be to charge for each admission, obviously, which implies the elimination of APs (at least the SoCal ones). They could be replaced by steep discounts for locals on days that would otherwise be slow--an expanded version of similar discounts used in the past.
    Well, the more expensive AP's are the ones that allow cheap admission on expected crowded days, closing the gates to full-paying guests. Those should be eliminated, if they're not all eliminated (which is optimal).
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  14. #59

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    Quote Originally Posted by BassBone View Post
    I'm guessing it's because Dumbo's ears are basically two giant sails. If it's too windy Dumbo might not be able to fly.
    Actually Dumbo would fly. Far and away!
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  15. #60

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    Re: 6/16: Dumbo & Dumber

    I was REALLY close to thinking this article itself was DUMB... then it actually picked up some steam after beating the dead horse on Nightastic.

    Not all the visitors in the park will want to see every single show, parade, and attraction. Some are more interested in other things than others. Some just go in and people watch or pin-trade... I am not convinced all 45 or 70,000 in the estimate will understand every single little detail about the park promos.

    Quote Originally Posted by D.E.1955 View Post
    ....they said [DEP] would be gone forever.............
    Just like in Tim Burton's "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", "When adults say 'forever', they actually mean 'for a really long time'".


    Quote Originally Posted by RenMan View Post
    I'm confused as to why Disney would spend lots of money to advertise new entertainment offerings and rides before they've opened. Is it in any business's best interests to beef up a marketing campaign and generate demand for a product which they can't fill? They're already guaranteed to have more people at opening nights for these events than can fit. Why not be more modest about the ad campaign, just barely getting the word out that these new offerings are available and then spend more advertising dollars later when attendance drops off?
    What?!

    Quote Originally Posted by JiminyCricketFan View Post
    All the mess COULD have been avoided. Disney needed to hand out fliers to those who enter apologizing that the dragon WOULD NOT perform that night. Also at the Fantasmic seating area, they could have announced that also. Along with cast members who could have directed people to move along after the event.
    Again... What?! "All attractions are subject to change without notice". It's unfortunate, but reality those come into play past the main entrance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    One thing they should do is to not allow guests to camp out more than an hour prior to any show whether it be Fantasmic, the fireworks or the soon to open WOC.
    Um... What?! Okay, let me see you tell people to move nightly from saving a viewing spot. This is one exeception I'll give where it's the guests' wish to spend the time and money to sit and wait for hours if they like for a show or parade. Let them stay away from increasing wait times for food and attractions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Want to see a better-run DLR? Make those TDA executive leaders from Marketing, Entertainment, Industrial Engineering and Operations take their families to DLR for five full-day trips a year during the summer and Christmas holidays. Make it a condition of employment that they and their families experience first hand what the full-day tourist family experiences.


    One of the better posts in this thread. But I'm sure there are the special cases that actually DO venture in the park from time to time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneyland Limited View Post
    I can believe it. Given the average "it's all about me" customer at Disneyland, it's not that surprising.

    ...Not exactly feasible...

    I'm always curious, though, about why this surprises people anymore. Not just TDA people but APs as well. We KNOW these new things are going to be hugely popular and that everyone wants to see them. But, because logic that would say "Wait a few days until the crowds die down and they work out all the inevitable kinks" is regularly ignored, everyone gets up in arms when things like this happen. Personally, it's why I rarely go see blockbuster movies on the first weekend; mob mentality transforms mild-mannered people into flat-out jerks.

    Should the TDA people have expected this? Of course! If the APs knew this was going to happen, why wouldn't the TDA folks? But then, if the APs knew this was going to happen, why did they allow themselves to become part of the problem?
    Applause.

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