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  1. #31

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    sediment, you'll be glad to know that inspiration struck today: I finally figured out the "metaphor" I'm going to use in the master FP article
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  2. #32

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    sediment, you'll be glad to know that inspiration struck today: I finally figured out the "metaphor" I'm going to use in the master FP article
    What a tease!

    Not unlike the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot, I'll believe it when I see it.
    If you need a reviewer, let me know.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  3. #33

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    The problem is, Disney is known for it's great customer service and the Golden Rule of customer service is "the customer is always right".

    So if someone shows up late for their fp time do you tell them "too bad, you missed your window" or do you let them in.....and if you let in someone who is 5 minutes late how do you deny someone who was 6 minutes late? 10 Minutes?

    And if your remedy to this is to put a definite 20 minute grace period on the return time you will either have to publish said grace period(which puts you right back to having to tell someone they "missed their window" again) or you keep the grace period a secret which means only people in the know(ie locals who visit a lot) will have, in actuality, more time to return than those not in the know.

    Why not just get rid of it altogether.....there are far more downsides to the whole system than anything that can be said to recommend it.
    As far as I know, the policy has always been you could come later than that posted "window", but never earlier.

  4. #34

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    No one, that I know personally, takes a fastpass and then goes to stand in a 50 min. line elsewhere. They take a fastpass and then go through several 10-20 min. wait attractions, go shopping, sit down and eat somewhere, or enjoy a parade or other live entertainment. Not all fastpass holders are clogging lines elsewhere.
    And I have never seen short lines for the "big" rides - certainly not in pre-fastpass days. We always had to wait at least an hour (often times 2hours) to ride any of the big attractions before fastpass. We stood in line because we didn't want to miss out on those attractions during our visit and had no other options. People will not forgo these attractions if fastpass is gone. The lines will be huge and people will spend less time in stores and seated dining because they have less time to enjoy those things. That will result in less revenue and grumpy tourists who will wonder why they should spend their hard earned money to travel the distance with their families to stand in long lines. The park will become even more of a local hang out than it already is. I know our family had decided to take a long furlough from Disney until we heard about the fastpass program. I will never understand why people think the lines will get shorter if they do away with free fastpasses.

  5. #35

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by KENfromOC View Post
    As far as I know, the policy has always been you could come later than that posted "window", but never earlier.
    Yes, I know......you may want to read the post I was responding to
    Waiting for Godot Micechat.com

  6. #36

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkbelle View Post
    I will never understand why people think the lines will get shorter if they do away with free fastpasses.
    Two answers:

    1. I've stepped foot in a Disney theme park almost every weekend (there are a couple of years of exceptions) since 1987. That is a fairly long period of time in which to make observations. And my experience suggests that lines were shorter pre-FastPass.

    2. Consider the math. Look at it from the whole-park point of view. If you've got 50 attractions and each attraction can hold 1,000 people in line, you've got 50,000 people in line. Now add FP into the mix. Some people deposit a ghost of themselves in Space Mtn and then go also wait in the Big Thunder line. Now you've got 70,000 people in line (in various formats) around the park. It "works" only because not all 50,000 people are using the system. If you have all 50,000 people using the system (like in Tokyo Disneyland), then tickets sell out by 10am for all FP around the park. Then you've got 100,000 people in line.

    Plain and simple, it only delivers a benefit because some people aren't using it. I can well imagine that people not thinking they "need" to use the system (after all, it's only voluntary) might decide Disney sucks and will take a furlough until lines are more reasonable.
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  7. #37

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    I certainly cannot argue with your experience, Kevin, I can only account for my own and those of my family and friends over the years. For us, wait times have appeared to remain steady or even slightly decreased, and fastpass has been a great stress reliever and benefit that has allowed us to take more time to enjoy the dining, shopping and shows that Disney has to offer.

  8. #38

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    So if someone shows up late for their fp time do you tell them "too bad, you missed your window" or do you let them in.....and if you let in someone who is 5 minutes late how do you deny someone who was 6 minutes late? 10 Minutes?
    I am not advocating any change, but if the times were limited on both ends and someone showed up late they would do the same thing as if someone showed up early, apologize and turn them away.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    2. Consider the math. Look at it from the whole-park point of view. If you've got 50 attractions and each attraction can hold 1,000 people in line, you've got 50,000 people in line. Now add FP into the mix. Some people deposit a ghost of themselves in Space Mtn and then go also wait in the Big Thunder line. Now you've got 70,000 people in line (in various formats) around the park. It "works" only because not all 50,000 people are using the system. If you have all 50,000 people using the system (like in Tokyo Disneyland), then tickets sell out by 10am for all FP around the park. Then you've got 100,000 people in line.
    Would you be happy with a system where each ticket was limited to say 2 or 3 or 4 FPs per ticket per day? or maybe a strict 1 FP per 4 hour period per ticket? That way guests could choose their favorite couple ride to guarantee a ride on and then be able to standby a couple more.

  9. #39

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoop View Post
    Would you be happy with a system where each ticket was limited to say 2 or 3 or 4 FPs per ticket per day? or maybe a strict 1 FP per 4 hour period per ticket? That way guests could choose their favorite couple ride to guarantee a ride on and then be able to standby a couple more.
    Yup, actually I would.

    Especially if the 3-4 tickets per day were for hotel guests (Disney's bread and butter), yet annual passholders could get 1 ticket per day. Those without Disney hotel key cards or without annual passes would not get any.... but they would not need any, since the limited number of tickets in the system would now mean shorter standby lines.
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  10. #40

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoop View Post
    Couldn't agree more, Really I have never heard anyone not use the FP at DLR, but I have seen tons of people think they could only use their FP during the allocated two hour block. Really if they want to make things fair to even the ignorant visitor, they should enforce the two hour FP window. I can tell you for sure my wife and I take full advantage of the FP system, in fact I don't know if we have ever used our normal 9am to 11am Space Mountain FP before 6pm.

    What they should do is give EVERY guest going through the gate two FastPasses. This way EVERYONE will be exposed to the system and no one will have an advantage over anyone else.

    BTW, look forward to Disney starting to charge for the system in Florida. I’ve heard rumors that they are looking to make EVERY attraction Fast Pass accessable.

  11. #41

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    *sigh* Kevin and your hate for Fastpass. I really don't understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    Two answers:

    1. I've stepped foot in a Disney theme park almost every weekend (there are a couple of years of exceptions) since 1987. That is a fairly long period of time in which to make observations. And my experience suggests that lines were shorter pre-FastPass.
    And my observation is 100% opposite from yours. When was the last time you saw a two hour standby line for Space Mountain? I've only seen it twice in the past 10 years. Once the weekend after it returned from its refurbishment in 2005 and again the week before Fastpass was integrated into Disneyland. In fact, the line for Space Mountain would routinely reach 2 hours every weekend in the summer. That never happens anymore. 90 minutes occasionaly, but 60 minutes max. How about Indiana Jones? Remember the days when it would wind back and forth in Adventureland? That has only happened a handful of times since Fastpass has been implemented, and never as long as it was every day before Fastpass. And how about the Tower of Terror. There is a ride that has decreeased its capacity by lenthening the time of the ride. Yet it is extremely rare to catch it with a standby wait of more than 70 minutes. It could be argued that these rides are not as new as they were before, however, rides like Indy and Tower of Terror have not seen a decline in the number of riders per day, they have just spread out when people come back to them throughout the day. I expect this argument to go back and forth forever between people who agree with you and people who agree with me, but I just don't see that whole "Lines are longer now" making any sense, when really they aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee
    2. Consider the math. Look at it from the whole-park point of view. If you've got 50 attractions and each attraction can hold 1,000 people in line, you've got 50,000 people in line. Now add FP into the mix. Some people deposit a ghost of themselves in Space Mtn and then go also wait in the Big Thunder line. Now you've got 70,000 people in line (in various formats) around the park. It "works" only because not all 50,000 people are using the system. If you have all 50,000 people using the system (like in Tokyo Disneyland), then tickets sell out by 10am for all FP around the park. Then you've got 100,000 people in line.

    Plain and simple, it only delivers a benefit because some people aren't using it. I can well imagine that people not thinking they "need" to use the system (after all, it's only voluntary) might decide Disney sucks and will take a furlough until lines are more reasonable.
    Now hold on a second. You are constnatly stating that the limited nature of Fastpass and how it is possible to sell out a ride before people get to the parks late is unfair. Now you go in this argument and say that limiting is a good thing and it's OK that Magic Mountain's pay service sells out early in the morning, making it usesless to late-arriving guests. Which is better? As for people being "cloned" Those who obtained a ticket at 10 AM with a late evening return time are waiting much longer for the ride than those who get in the standby line. Fastpass is distributing capacity much more efficiently than a regular line can. You seem to think that it's better that half of the 25,000 people waiting at the gates for Tokyo Disneyland to open get in line for Whinnie the Pooh right when the turnstyles start spinning. You now have a four hour line right off the bat. Isn't it better to distribute everyone to a later time, rather than causing gigantic waits at TDL every day?

  12. #42

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    I'm not a fan of Flashpass. I don't like the mindset of being able to buy a better experience. Six Flags already has 'additional-cost' attractions within the park - climbing wall, midway games, stuff like that. It makes the place seem cheaper when you are constantly reminded of why the company wants you there. Also - if Flashpass is better for standby riders than Fastpass is, why was the line for Batman still 110 minutes? I did Indy and Space without Fastpass and I didn't have to wait more than an hour for either one, in July.

    Of course, it's nice if you can afford it - but thirty dollars? People were complaining about feeling nickle-and-dimed over $3 stitching for hats! There's no way I'd pay nearly once again the admission cost just to cut down on the lines - let alone twice again. It's simply not worth it. The last time I went to Six Flags (Great Am in Gurnee), we spent six hours or so and did all the major coasters and half a dozen of them twice, without needing Flashpass. There's a lot more to do at Disney parks - which is partly why I think the comparison between FLP and FP isn't really on equal terms anyway. Six Flags queues are usually worse than Disney's - they're almost universally unthemed switchbacks, the turnover time is a lot slower - they just take longer, and it feels longer.

    I've done Fastpass and I've done Standby - I'd much rather take my chances and get the option of Fastpass for free than go totally without, or double my admission cost and feel obligated to use it - particularly at Disneyland, where I actually WANT to go through some of the queues.
    You don't need me or my ham, cheese, cheese, cheese, tomato, cheese, ham and tomato sandwiches. And cheese.




  13. #43

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    Clinky's real trick is to exploit the stupidity of:
    1. Having fastpass distribution open when there is not yet a line formed.
    2. Having the return times of those first-distributed FP tickets so quickly turned around.

    So, these loopholes should be closed somehow, if we're looking to maximize EVERYONE's day of fun. Because even though Clinky got a good day in (and he didn't break any rules), he slowed down many other guests' day in the process.
    The other way to combat this is if everyone got to the park early and everyone got FastPasses as optimally as possible. Then everyone would be special. (Cue Incredibles' Dash's (and SinDrome's) comeback line). Well, except for anyone showing up at 11AM or so.
    It's good to be the king.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    Yup, actually I would.

    Especially if the 3-4 tickets per day were for hotel guests (Disney's bread and butter), yet annual passholders could get 1 ticket per day. Those without Disney hotel key cards or without annual passes would not get any.... but they would not need any, since the limited number of tickets in the system would now mean shorter standby lines.
    But, many AP's are not "local". I know we made 2 trips to WDW when we had AP's. Granted, we did stay onsite but under that plan we wouldn't have been able to have more than 1 FP per day.


  14. #44

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Yee
    Plain and simple, it (FastPass) only delivers a benefit because some people aren't using it.
    This argument is absurd on its face. If everyone used FastPass, then all the standby lines would be empty. Then, if there were only one person who didn't know about the system, he'd be able to pretty much walk onto any FP ride he wanted, with only the returning FP people in the queue. Increasing the "cost" of FP by making people wait longer before their tickets mature, thus allowing more people to make their way through the standby line in less time would be a good way to adjust the system if it were completely out of whack (which some of you clearly think is the case), but I don't think you need to scrap the system or make people pay for it.

  15. #45

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Namrepus View Post
    If everyone used FastPass, then all the standby lines would be empty.
    Um, no. You may not have seen the earlier arguments to this effect, but in brief: people don't disappear once they hold a FP. Most of them get in line for something else, and exist "in two places at once."
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

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