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  1. #46

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    Um, no. You may not have seen the earlier arguments to this effect, but in brief: people don't disappear once they hold a FP. Most of them get in line for something else, and exist "in two places at once."
    And I really do think that this is something that benefits the Six Flags "Flashpass", ESPECIALLY the Gold. With the Gold there really is no time between selecting the ride and getting to your next ride-time thus eliminating the "virtual" you in another line.

    The other thing that's good is that the Flashpass isn't just good on the most popular rides, but also rides that may not be as popular. This has turned rides that you may never really have ridden (like goldrusher at SFMM or Ninja at SFOG) into rides you will go ahead and ride because "I don't have to wait for it".

    I'm sure this works even better with the new pass as with the old "Q-bot" you had to actually scan the machine at the ride you wanted to ride and then return. But, the good thing about that was that you could queue up multiple rides at once.


  2. #47

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Yee
    Um, no. You may not have seen the earlier arguments to this effect, but in brief: people don't disappear once they hold a FP. Most of them get in line for something else, and exist "in two places at once."
    And here I thought that by using FastPass, I was just shortening my wait in line. I hardly knew that I was achieving the elusive "quantum guest" status!

    The only reason that the walkways between the lands provide any benefit is because some people take the train. Even though the walkways are clearly denoted on the park maps and they are free for anyone to use, some people won't do the necessary research to know that using the walkways is to their benefit. And even though I personally don't approve of having the walkways, the fact that they exist means that I am forced to use them to get around the park in a reasonable amount of time. And of course, people who arrive later in the day will find the walkways more crowded, forcing more of them onto the train. So the solution, clearly, is to abolish the walkways and force everyone to ride the train between lands. After all, it's only fair.

  3. #48

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    After reading this thread, and not really wanting to jump yet again into the timeless fastpass debate, I would like to make this observation. DL is a complex system, so why would one think that the experienced user would not have an advantage over the first time or casual guest? Clinks is exploiting the system with knowledge he gained from many visits. I have taken advantage of some of these same things including using a fastpass 8 hours after its close time and hitting the unconnected machines for a second pass.

    It is virtually impossible to construct a system for a park as complex as DL that will not give an advantage to the experienced and educated guest. Even knowing to come early is an advantage. Just like knowing how to go through the stores on the right of MSUSA to get to the front of the rope drop is a trick learned through experience.

    The flashpass is one thing that would level the playing field for the less experienced guest, that is if they know the value of buying one.
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  4. #49

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Six Flags heavily advertises (at least here in new england) "Pay Kids Prices" ($30 bucks). When I went in late august last year, I got on 7 rides (without the 30 dollar add on), in the hours from about 12-10pm. When I went to Disneyworld mid august last year, I only used the fast pass once and averaged waaaaaaay more than 7 attractions per day. Food and souvioners seem about the same price at each park (overpriced crappy pizza, rock concert t-shirt prices). While six flags might have been a few bucks cheeper in the long run(if I had sprung for the extra 30 bucks), I feel like with my expierence, I felt way less ripped off by Disney. Could just be that Disney magic warping my brain though

  5. #50

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Good data, Megashifter.

    It all really does come down to the question of how much your time is worth. We had a single day to visit SFOG as first-time visitors, so we paid $97 for a two-person Gold FLP. Sure, it cost extra, but we got on 18 rides from 10am until 7 pm (nine hours rather then the ten in your example), which is 2.5 times how many rides you got on.

    Our number would have been closer to 30 had we come without kids; on some coasters, we had to reserve a second slot and the other parent would go with the child, and all that took up some time.

    One of the real dealbreakers here is capacity. Disney rides have the potential for way more capacity than most SF coasters, yet Disney doesn't always go for full capacity in a bid to save money. (and a reader notes to me in email that a Disney paid FLP would give Disney the incentive to run at even lower capacity). This needs to be part of the equation.
    Kevin Yee
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    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  6. #51

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadoe View Post
    Overall the system works, and pretty well.
    What is your basis for saying the system works pretty well? Is it because the system currently provides a benefit to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadoe View Post
    I don't see any reason to completely overturn something that's working and most people enjoy as having a part of their trips.
    Again, what is your basis for saying most people enjoy FP? Most fans on Disney sites like FP because they know how to use it. If you poll casual tourists, you'll get very different result. You might be surprised just how many of them don't know about FP, don't understand FP or loathe FP.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadoe View Post
    Ration it, give fewer out, and give people in standby more opportunity to advance in the line over the Fastpass holders. If the standby line grows too long, the solution is pretty simple: you give out fewer FastPass tickets, or better manage the hours they are given out.
    Fewer FP = good. Frankly, getting rid of FP would do the most good for the largest number of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadoe View Post
    FastPass is such a large perk for people that you either get rid of it altogether, or you fix the problem. You don't completely overhaul it and start charging people for such a huge-value and and nice perk. But to charge for it is a patently foolish idea.
    People always say FP is a perk. How is FP a perk? It doesn't make lines shorter overall. It just redistributes capacity from the casual tourist to those who know how to use the system.

  7. #52

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadoe View Post
    Which was sort-of the point of FastPass to begin with: so people could spend more money. By making FastPass paid, Disney would be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Not seeing the forest for the trees, so-to-speak.
    How so?

    I think they would be wise in every sense.

  8. #53

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkbelle View Post
    I certainly cannot argue with your experience, Kevin, I can only account for my own and those of my family and friends over the years. For us, wait times have appeared to remain steady or even slightly decreased, and fastpass has been a great stress reliever and benefit that has allowed us to take more time to enjoy the dining, shopping and shows that Disney has to offer.
    That has been your experience because you are reaping the benefit of FP. The fact that you saw any reduction in wait times means this was offset by someone else waiting in a longer stand-by line.

  9. #54

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    I disagree about my experience being offset by longer standby lines for someone else - standby lines have remained the same or even slightly decreased, in my experience.

    I can also reap the benefit of free drinking fountains. If there were some people who didn't know about free drinking fountains, and were instead buying bottled water, should we say the drinking water system at Disneyland is faulty and that they should either charge for the fountains or do away with them altogether to make things fair? You can offer drinking fountains and advertise them in park maps and put signs up around the park, but you can't make people acknowledge them or force them to drink from them. Some may even prefer paying for bottled water - but that doesn't mean the free drinking fountains should go away because some people are reaping the benefit of free water while others have ignored the signs or chosen to pay.
    I have yet to run into someone who doesn't know about free drinking fountains, and I have yet to run into someone at Disneyland who doesn't know about fastpass. To the contrary, I hear people talking about fastpass all day at Disneyland and flocking to the machines everywhere. When something is being offered for free, the word gets around fast, and fastpass has been around for many years now.
    Do you have poll results somewhere on questioning guests about their knowledge of fastpass? Otherwise it is just my guest observation against yours...
    And, again, I disagree about it just redistributing people back into other busy queues. Instead, it distributes a lot of them onto less-popular attractions that they wouldn't visit if they had more limited time, as well as shopping and seated dining. So, the redistributing may actually help to distribute the crowd more evenly around the parks instead of congesting the lines of highly popular rides that people are always willing to wait for because it is a must-ride attraction for them.

  10. #55

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lebeau View Post
    That has been your experience because you are reaping the benefit of FP. The fact that you saw any reduction in wait times means this was offset by someone else waiting in a longer stand-by line.
    This assumes 100% of FPers are waiting in line in other rides, a lot of them are shopping or eating too. It's a lot easier to eat at a full service when you have virtual you waiting in line. Also, Disney doesn't run a lot of rides at capacity, if the FPers are waiting in other lines (probabbly mostly non-FP enabled rides but it doesn't matter) They can increase those other rides to capacity first. Finally I would like to see some actual numbers on FP utilization, I have a feeling it is a lot higher than suggested.

  11. #56

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkbelle View Post
    Do you have poll results somewhere on questioning guests about their knowledge of fastpass? Otherwise it is just my guest observation against yours...
    Nope. My observations come from about 500 days in WDW in the last five years, and 800 or so days in Disneyland in the 80s and 90s. Yours may exceed mine.

    On every single visit to WDW, I hear some visitor express ignorance about FP: "Oh, those people paid extra" or "we can just wait in line; I don't want to come back later."

    But if you want hard numbers, only Disney has those. The fact is, Disney is almost certainly going to change the FP system, and I assume at least some of that is informed by the poll numbers. Don't believe me - just ask any Guest Relations CM who will be honest with you... those "not in the know" really don't like the system.
    Kevin Yee
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    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
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    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  12. #57

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Kevin-

    You have repeatedly ignored people who have pointed out that standby lines are actually shorter now than they were in the past, why? You have also ignored those that pointed out one of your problems with fastpass is how it is unfair to people who show up late to the parks, yet you appluad Six Flags' system which require an even earlier arrival. You seem to only argue points that you can disprove and ignore those you can't.

  13. #58

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    As much as I greatly respect your experience and opinion, Kevin, it would take hard numbers from Disney to convince me because it is not what my first-hand observation has been (or that of others, even on this board).

    I agree that regardless of either of our opinions it looks like Disney will change the system... it is just sad for me and my family. I would much rather see them extend times between getting fastpasses, decrease the number given out or enforce return times, than to do away with it altogether or make it a paid program which is rather elitist.

  14. #59

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducksman View Post
    You have repeatedly ignored people who have pointed out that standby lines are actually shorter now than they were in the past, why? You have also ignored those that pointed out one of your problems with fastpass is how it is unfair to people who show up late to the parks, yet you appluad Six Flags' system which require an even earlier arrival. You seem to only argue points that you can disprove and ignore those you can't.
    I'm not trying to ignore anyone. I'm trying to counter-argue and engage their point. My answer to their claim that lines are shorter now is to suggest, politely and contritely, that this does not match my observations on 1,300 trips to Disney parks since the late 1980s.

    If you read my article, you will note that I did point out the flaw in Six Flag's system requiring an early start and that Disney will have to "address that" somehow when they institute a new version of FP.

    As for your last sentence, let's please keep the vitriol directed at POINTS, not at people. Thanks.
    Kevin Yee
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    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  15. #60

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    Re: 8/4: Flash vs Fast; Pass that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    On every single visit to WDW, I hear some visitor express ignorance about FP: "Oh, those people paid extra" or "we can just wait in line; I don't want to come back later."
    That sounds more like WDW has a problem with informing the consumer of the FP service. I know there isn't any way anyone is going to convince you of the merits of the FP system, but the last thing I would want to see is a premium system that has the same effect such as a Disney FlashPass type system.

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