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  1. #31

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    The HM tombstones are not one bit further out than "Here Lies Lester Moore, Four Slugs from a .44, No Less, No More." There are lots of funny epitaphs in real cemeteries. Nothing about the HM epitaphs takes you into a cartoon, fantasy world. And no, not all of the HM tombstones are humorous. "In Memory of Our Patriarch, Dear Departed Grandpa Marc," "Master Gracey Laid to Rest, No Mourning Please at His Request." Real knee-slappers, those.
    My favorite real-world epitaph reads: "I told you I was sick." One minor point: Not all the new stones even have epitaphs. The Hitch Hiking Ghosts' stones don't. Again, more tombstones for ghosts. They never lived there. They're in the public cemetery "next door", and should never have been included in the family plot.



    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Story? The HM doesn't tell a "story."
    That was a correct statement, until this past decade. The only story was that it is a retirement home for ghosts from all over the world. Disney himself even said that. It started with the Leota tombstone. That addition makes zero sense in the family plot, but otherwise it is subtle, very much in keeping with the original design of the queue - and most fans could forgive that one little lapse in logic. (Not to mention that it was actually more of an insider joke, as Leota was never named in the Florida Mansion.) Now we've added Connie and her headless husbands inside, yet curiously no crypts or tombstones out front where they should be. They are some of the few confirmed previous residents [now]! The other characters out there now just don't belong. Like you said, they're ghosts from elsewhere, not former residents, and should not be in either of the family cemeteries (two in Florida). But apparently now they are all family??? And referenced in their ghostly forms? Yeah - that's really logical. Um-hm...

    Alas, they simply had extra budget to make an interactive queue, and they gave us McMansionland. Logic, subtlety, and common sense be damned!
    Last edited by Grinning Ghost; 04-22-2011 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #32

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    You're right that there is now a story in the HM (Connie's tale), but it is not presented—at least not yet—as the all-encompassing, all-explanatory story explaining everything you see. You don't have to look at the Coffin Guy and answer the question, "How does he fit into the Connie saga?" What I meant by "no story" was that there is no one, single narrative to the HM, into which everything must be fitted. I should have been clearer.

    I fully agree that Connie is an unwelcome and unhealthy step in the wrong direction, but if they can resist the temptation to continually expand it, then we're still within bounds.
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  3. #33

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    I fully agree that Connie is an unwelcome and unhealthy step in the wrong direction, but if they can resist the temptation to continually expand it, then we're still within bounds.
    I could accept her much more readily - particularly if they made the badly-needed technical improvements. It would also help if she and her hubbys looked less like just ordinary people and more like carefully crafted characters as they did with the other "real-faced" characters created 40 years ago. They still should add their crypts in McMansionland. Oops - I keep forgetting: that would be – *gasp* – logical!

  4. #34

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    You've actually hit on the problem presented by Connie to the creators of Pepe Le Queue: she and her husbands look like real human beings, not caricatures like the Dreads. The stylistic clash is so obvious that the two sets must be kept separated.
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  5. #35

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    First of all, Disneyland's it not victorian. I pretty sure that is french quarter. I would not care to indulge on the double dare. You would never approve of gaps as I fill them in, and some I haven't filled in yet.

    The short of it is, I find that que has not destroyed the attraction, or fundementally changed it. The masses clearly enjoy it, just stand out side the exit and listen.

    Now there are time when we on-line communities rant, and we are vindicated because the masses also sneer at the changes. Journey into Imaginations first redo comes to mind. They had to reclose and redo the redo. This is not the case for Haunted Mansion. The Masses are enjoying. So I don't need to give further thought. Perhaps it is you that does. It is not your mansion, and your interreptations of it are yours. So perhaps the changes.... or more accurately they have ruined your interreptations. I guess if you really love something, its hard not to consider it "yours" and to not get mad when they change it.

    I love it too, but its not ruined for me.

  6. #36

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by Kidgenie View Post
    First of all, Disneyland's it not victorian. I pretty sure that is french quarter.
    If you're referring to the design style of the Disneyland facade, it's actually Greek Revival. The added wrought iron work gives it a New Orleans flair. It's meant to look like an antebellum mansion built around 1850, which puts is smack-dab in the middle of the Victorian era. The WDW facade is also meant to represent a mansion built around 1850, but in the New York Hudson Valley style. It too falls within the Victorian era. Not Victorian style, but the Victorian era. There is a difference. Queen Victoria reigned from 1837-1901, and that is the Victorian era. So, HBG2's theory that the Pet Cemeteries could have been a Victorian-era addition is quite plausible. It's logical; it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kidgenie View Post
    Now there are time when we on-line communities rant, and we are vindicated because the masses also sneer at the changes. Journey into Imaginations first redo comes to mind. They had to reclose and redo the redo. This is not the case for Haunted Mansion. The Masses are enjoying. So I don't need to give further thought. Perhaps it is you that does. It is not your mansion, and your interreptations of it are yours. So perhaps the changes.... or more accurately they have ruined your interreptations. I guess if you really love something, its hard not to consider it "yours" and to not get mad when they change it.

    There were few complaints about the interior changes made during the major refurb of 2007. Most of them were well done, fit the attraction quite nicely, and did not change the concept fundamentally. The most controversial change was the addition of Chatty Connie in the Attic, but at least WDI made an effort to tie her in to the Mansion through the existing painting in the Stretch Rooms. The most common complaint about that addition is in regards to technical issues with the poorly-done presentation, not so much the concept. Same with the new Hitch Hiking Ghosts effects. Technical issues need to be addressed to make them fit better - the chief complaint being that they're too solid, and not ghostly enough, but at least they were only plussing what already existed.

    The issues with the new queue do seriously mess around with the fundamental concept of the attraction. They're illogical, make no sense, and ruin the presentation of "Act One". They've changed it simply for the sake of change to make the kiddies happy with a total disregard for the Mansion's original concept and screwing up the continuity of the show. It had the potential to be so much better, and actually add to the experience in a good way, but they did it all wrong so that it doesn't fit in.

    This is the third unnecessary, ill-conceived, and poorly executed change they've made to the Mansion in the last few years. First: Flat, Chatty Connie; Second: most of the original Graveyard vocals were replaced with badly-done imitations for no reason whatsoever; and now Thirdly: The addition of a family graveyard that could not possibly exist conceptually.

    Had these changes been done well, we probably would not have pages and pages of rants about how bad they are. It's not simply being "mad" about the fact that they've made the changes, but about how poorly-done and ill-conceived they are.

    Perhaps they haven't ruined the attraction completely, but they sure are well on their way to destroying it. But wait! There's more: Rumor has it that the Ballroom will be the next victim of new technology.
    Last edited by Grinning Ghost; 04-23-2011 at 03:47 AM.

  7. #37

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by Kidgenie View Post
    It is not your mansion, and your interreptations of it are yours. So perhaps the changes.... or more accurately they have ruined your interreptations. I guess if you really love something, its hard not to consider it "yours" and to not get mad when they change it.
    I think the above is the most well thought out statement on this entire thread.

  8. #38

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    If interpretation A explains the data and interpretation B cannot, then interpretation A is more likely correct than B. The idea that all "interpretations" are hopelessly subjective is pure bunk.

    I notice that "hey, people like it" is always the argument of second resort. Ask the Imagineers or reviewers about a change to a classic ride, and they are eager to affirm first that they've stayed true to "the spirit of the attraction" and that they have nothing but "respect" for the ride and the Imagineers who created it. This is always first. It is only when these claims are seriously challenged that they fall back on the populist argument, "Well, people like it, and that's all that really matters." If that argument was really sufficient, why don't they ever lead with it? Answer: because they know damn well it's a crappy, last resort argument, to be used only when they've messed up a ride.

    I predict that Pepe Le Queue will be widely regarded as "boring" in less than a year.
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  9. #39

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    If interpretation A explains the data and interpretation B cannot, then interpretation A is more likely correct than B. The idea that all "interpretations" are hopelessly subjective is pure bunk.

    I notice that "hey, people like it" is always the argument of second resort. Ask the Imagineers or reviewers about a change to a classic ride, and they are eager to affirm first that they've stayed true to "the spirit of the attraction" and that they have nothing but "respect" for the ride and the Imagineers who created it. This is always first. It is only when these claims are seriously challenged that they fall back on the populist argument, "Well, people like it, and that's all that really matters." If that argument was really sufficient, why don't they ever lead with it? Answer: because they know damn well it's a crappy, last resort argument, to be used only when they've messed up a ride.

    I predict that Pepe Le Queue will be widely regarded as "boring" in less than a year.
    I don't at all mean it as an argument of second resort, but rather an objectivity check. When I am in the parks I also listen to the crowds. WHAT are they reacting to and HOW is the reaction. If those reactions are positive and fly in the face of the on-line rants then in all likely hood Disney as a business will correctly discount and discredit the on-line rant as unreasonable reactions for Disney Purist or for what ever reason they see fit. In this business Guest reaction should never be considered an argument of second resort, it is very much the primary reason for doing anything or not doing it.

  10. #40

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    I will reiterate what I said in my article: there is indeed a tone shift in the queue (especially the fishing captain's voiceovers), but that may not "destroy" anything if the visitors who "don't know what to expect" skip the line. The presence of the bypass queue makes all the difference in the world.

    In my 4 visits on weekends, the extended line was much busier than the bypass line, but some visitors still used the bypass. When I visited last night (Friday), very few used the extended queue.

    It's not entirely obvious what to read into that, but my first guess would be that locals and frequent visitors are more likely to visit on Saturday daytimes than Friday night. Does this imply that infrequent visitors use the bypass more often? It would be instructive to find out from some HM CMs what their experience has been.

    I will side with Kidgenie that guest reaction seems pretty positive, and that WDI will (and should) pay attention first and foremost to what the masses like or dislike.
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  11. #41

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    I will side with Kidgenie that guest reaction seems pretty positive, and that WDI will (and should) pay attention first and foremost to what the masses like or dislike.
    Therein lies the problem: Business over artistry.

  12. #42

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Practically everything generates buzz and excitement when it is new. Like I said, come back in about a year. I predict that by then it will be widely agreed that this interactive queue is boring. First-time guests will look at it, once, and that will be about it. Everyone else will skip it. Been there, done that. No repeatability.

    Kidgenie seems to think that "The basic concept of the ride has been changed" is a subjective argument. It isn't. If you carefully define the original concept, and point to the evidence why you think so, and you describe with equal clarity what the concept has been changed to, and point to the evidence why you think so, then "The basic concept of the ride has been changed" is something that can be objectively argued, yea or nay. It's not just a vague, "I dunno, it seems to me" thing.

    I challenge anyone to point out to me a serious violation of logic in the original Mansion, other than the fact that ghosts and ghostly activities are assumed to be real. The original Imagineers all knew they were creating a simulation of the real world in which the guests live, like a realistic story or movie tries to depict the same world in which the reader or moviegoer lives. I then challenge anyone to defend the new queue as something equally logical and believable in the real world without resorting to far-fetched arguments and special pleading. If those two challenges cannot be successfully met, then my "subjective interpretation" that the concept of the ride has been changed cannot be simply dismissed as an off-the-cuff opinion based on some emotional response.

    Oh, and I should add as a reminder: a portrait of one of the Dread busts is now parked conspicuously next to the HHG's inside the ride. Carsillo and crew clearly intend this new material to be integrated into the attraction, not an optional addendum.
    Last edited by HBG2; 04-23-2011 at 07:29 AM.
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  13. #43

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    I will side with Kidgenie that guest reaction seems pretty positive, and that WDI will (and should) pay attention first and foremost to what the masses like or dislike.
    The reaction, at least when I visited the parks, was mixed. I'd say that the little kids enjoyed it, kids from the ages 7-13 thought it was OK, and everyone 13+ didn't give a damn or just thought it was for little kids.
    Everyone avoided the Captian's tomb like the plague (just throwing that out there).
    They are not catering to the masses, they are catering to the numbers. Management tells the Imagineers that there needs to be an interactive queue, because thats what the "Kids like" and it would bring temporary popularity to the parks. Imagineers end up creating one spur of the moment (logic obviously going out the window) and they open it ASAP. They were not thinking in depth of what people would really enjoy nor did they take a look at what is already in the mansion critically. They threw a bunch of mansion characters that they thought would be "Fun" added in some Tributes to original Imagineers and concept designs (so that we would not be in too much of an uproar) and were done with it.

    And another sad fact of the matter is that the masses will gobble up anything the Imagineers put in place. Actually, the masses don't really care, since most of them will only visit once. They could have easily made an interactive queue that both Mansionites and the "Masses" would enjoy.
    Oh yes, and the new queue is not "Optional" like you keep saying, for most of the day the shorter line is chained off and you are forced to go through "Pepe la Queue". Other times there is no one staffed at the crossroads explaining that both lines are open. But, whatever. If you like it, you like it. I am not one to judge. Just don't try to justify its coherence to the original attraction, because you will ultimately fail. There are people here who have studied the Mansion for a long time.

  14. #44

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    But, whatever. If you like it, you like it. I am not one to judge. Just don't try to justify its coherence to the original attraction, because you will ultimately fail. There are people here who have studied the Mansion for a long time.
    A quick translation: "I'm not one to judge, but I am going to judge in the previous statements before i say I don't judge. By the way, don't bother to even attempt at commenting that this advancement could work in its current form because your wrong and anyone who agrees with me and says they've been on the ride since the good old days is right." lol for some reason whenever talk of this new queue comes up theres a group of 4 or 5 posters that plague the board against everyone that doesn't agree with their purist view. just my 2 cents, from another person thats studied the mansion for a long time.

  15. #45

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by goofy donald View Post
    A quick translation: "I'm not one to judge, but I am going to judge in the previous statements before i say I don't judge. By the way, don't bother to even attempt at commenting that this advancement could work in its current form because your wrong and anyone who agrees with me and says they've been on the ride since the good old days is right." lol for some reason whenever talk of this new queue comes up theres a group of 4 or 5 posters that plague the board against everyone that doesn't agree with their purist view. just my 2 cents, from another person thats studied the mansion for a long time.
    Your "translation" makes no sense. MG13's original post was quite clear, and not in need of any translating. What is it exactly that you are trying to say? Are you for the new queue? Against the new queue? Ambivalent about it? Bitterness about opinions? Something else entirely??

    I'm guessing you're complaining about "purist" opinions. All opinions are welcome whether they agree with anyone else's or not.

    I myself may be a "purist" who has been a fan of the HM for 35+ years, but I do still enjoy many of the new enhancements (not advancements). My quip is only that they don't belong in the queue, and screw up the atmosphere and continuity with the rest of the attraction. Better suited to the end. The real issue is that the higher-ups just don't care how it screws anything up, so long as the interactive bit is there and the kiddies like it. They're about the $$$, not about making it fit in like the 2007 enhancements. I agree with MG13: the masses don't really care because they aren't HM fans, and not paying any attention to any semblance of continuity, story or atmosphere - they just see things to play with. That seems to be the general consensus amongst us purists. If others like the new queue, well good for them!
    Last edited by Grinning Ghost; 05-01-2011 at 07:33 AM.

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