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  1. #76

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    What blog is that? I got it about a month or so ago directly from an inside source that it would be the original show.

  2. #77

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    That would be the Disney Parks Blog. I understand that they also mentioned this at the D23 event this past weekend, but I'm not sure if they used the word reminiscent or if they said it really was an old show that was going back in. Given the time frame, I'd be pretty surprised if they'd be able to create an entire new show with the feel of the old show. But the wording on the Blog seemed to indicate that it wasn't exactly an old show, but one like it.

  3. #78

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Dan, even with your gut-feeling type approach, you can still see the problem with the queue, because it can be shown that the HM was not created with the anticipation that people would take that type of approach.

    I gave a list of logical inconsistencies with the new queue in earlier posts, and I could extend the list. If you try to fit it into the HM presentation as a whole, it's a nest of absurdities. Okay, now if you turn to the rest of the HM show, all of it, any of it, and ask the same types of questions, you get pretty close to ZERO logical absurdities and inconsistencies. You can probe all you want; everything makes sense. It's like a realistic movie or play. It's part of what makes it a convincing, engrossing, believable experience. That sort of thing doesn't just happen by accident, especially if it's a team creation. They must have made it that way on purpose. They knew instinctively that people would approach the ride as a simple haunted house experience: you, in your ordinary, real world, going into an old house and finding it haunted. No cartoon character humans living there. No silly crypts. Nothing incoherent in the overall presentation to destroy the illusion of a real-world-except-with-ghosts experience.

    Assuming that analysis is correct (and so far I've had no serious challenges, no clear examples of significant logical absurdities in the original ride's presentation), then isn't it obviously true that the mindset of the original Imagineers with regard to what they were creating and the mindset of Pete Carsillo and gang with regard to what they were creating are two different mindsets?

    If the gravestones with no room for graves in front of them don't bother you, all that means is that your take on the whole thing is much like Carsillo's. If that's enough for you to have fun, that's fine, but that is demonstrably NOT what the original Imagineers were shooting for. Here's a photo of the original queue graveyard at DL (removed in the 70's, alas). Look at the blueprint. They made certain that the gravestones were placed as if real graves were in front of them.



    The layout of the old graveyard at WDW was done the same way. Isn't it obvious on its face that Carsillo and Co. didn't even try to adopt a mindset similar to what the original Imagineers had? Is it any wonder that people who have admired the HM for the artistic creation that it is (possibly unique in a theme park dark ride) sense almost immediately that this queue monstrosity is horribly wrong, that it treats what is already there as something much less than it is?
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  4. #79

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Ricky Brigante of Inside the Magic mentioned it on Facebook while at the D23 event:

    "Announced today on the Disney Parks Blog, this summer Walt Disney World will return its Enchanted Tiki Room attraction to the classic Tropical Serenade form. Gone is the “Under New Management” version featuring Iago and Zazu, which closed after a fire several weeks ago.

    Jose, Fritz, Pierre and Michael and 200 other birds, tikis and flowers will return some time later this summer with the attraction simply called The Enchanted Tiki Room. More details on its reopening will be announced soon, with a likely reopening in June."

    He did provide a link to the Disney Parks Blog. I guess I got too giddy reading Ricky's post to notice the bit about it only being "reminiscent" of the original show on the other blog.

    The only significant difference between what I was told and what Inside The Magic posted was that I was told the show will reopen in August, whereas he says June.

  5. #80

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    ...isn't it obviously true that the mindset of the original Imagineers with regard to what they were creating and the mindset of Pete Carsillo and gang with regard to what they were creating are two different mindsets?
    I think what we're talking about is a difference of degrees here. Yes, I agree with you that the current queue expansion is not done in the same style as the original mansion. Where we differ is in the effect of the queue, and how it complements or contradicts the main attraction. For you it is an abomination. For me it's a fun, new thing to keep the attention while standing in line. It is well done to the point that it still fits in with the overall vibe of the mansion, at least the vibe of 2011. Would it have worked back in 1969? Probably not. And before you say it, I don't see it as the standards of Imagineering lowering over the years. It's simply a different take on the whole spookhouse thing. With the overall tone of the HM being one of fun-loving spooks teasing and tweaking the guest, then the queue is simply an extension of that. For someone to NEED it to be otherwise themed is, to me, simply a case of taking it way too seriously and literally.

    I don't refute your statements point by point because overall you're right - there ain't enough room for a grave in front of the gravestone. But it just isn't an issue for me. I'd never even have thought of that as a problem if it hadn't been pointed out. And even so, I still don't have a problem with it. Same with your other objections. Real instruments on one side and spooky sounds on the other? Again, it's an element of a queue where you touch something and it makes a sound. It's FUN, it makes the time go by faster, and thematically it in no way clashes with the overall theme of the mansion.

  6. #81

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    It is certainly not a "difference of degrees." Realistic house with ghosts vs. cartoony house with ghosts is a fundamental change in concept. If they want to do a "different take on the spookhouse thing," as you put it, why force it onto what is already there? You've just let the cat out of the bag: this queue requires you to read the whole attraction in a way that is contrary to the intention of its creators. If someone has been experiencing it all these years in line with the intentions of the guys who built it, these new additions rudely tell you to stop doing so. You don't notice it or mind it because that's how you've always read it (just a funsy ride; don't take it "seriously and literally"). That's fine for you. You've always been able to experience it that way if you wish. But now everyone has to read it that way, like it or not, because the original way of reading the experience clashes violently with what we're given in this new queue. Are you really okay with having your favored way of enjoying the ride suddenly rammed down the throats of everyone?
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  7. #82

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Did you seriously see the HM as a serious haunted location with real depictions of real ghosts? Heck, I first saw it in 1969, when I was 13, and even then I got the fact that the ride was whimsical. The ride evens ends with a group of hitchhiking ghosts - now how could anything be more whimsical than that? Again, back in 1969 it was probably more important to keep things serious for the early stages of the attraction, and then loosen up and be a bit silly later on. But as I keep saying, almost everyone on the planet has seen this ride at least once, and KNOW that the ghosts are fun loving jokesters. So now we have some at the beginning as well as the end. I still don't see this as a problem. And I don't see anything being forced down anyone's throats. EVERYONE knows what the HM is about. And now there's one more element to enjoy.

  8. #83

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Of course it's a show. In the show, it's presented as a real house in the real world, except that ghosts and ghostly activities are real. "Ghosts" includes both scary ghosts and zany, fun-loving ghosts.

    That's what has always been there. That's what they built.

    The busts in the new queue (Bertie and his pet sea serpent) and the new crypts (impossibly silly) aren't ghosts, zany or otherwise. No one supposes that they are meant to be taken as mirages. They're supposed to be solid, physical products of the humans who used to live in this house. Bertie and his sea serpent lived here. Why is this so hard to see? The fantasy element (zany, fun-loving ghosts) now includes the people who built the house and lived in it. It's just like Toontown now, a visit to a fantasy world where fantasy creatures live. You have no choice but to take it that way. You used to have a choice.

    And no, not everyone knows all about the HM beforehand. The queue is like a rude guy in the movie theater who has seen the film already and is talking loudly to his friends sitting next to him about how the movie is going to turn out.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  9. #84

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    And no, not everyone knows all about the HM beforehand. The queue is like a rude guy in the movie theater who has seen the film already and is talking loudly to his friends sitting next to him about how the movie is going to turn out.
    That has to be the funniest, and most accurate, analogy I have ever heard.

  10. #85

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    We're fast approaching the agree to disagree point, but I have enjoyed the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Bertie and his sea serpent lived here. Why is this so hard to see? The fantasy element (zany, fun-loving ghosts) now includes the people who built the house and lived in it. It's just like Toontown now, a visit to a fantasy world where fantasy creatures live. You have no choice but to take it that way. You used to have a choice.
    I don't see any incongruity in the creatures in the queue any more than I ever had a problem with all of the headstones of all of the Imagineers. I never saw any need to incorporate them into the story, or to conclude that they LIVED in the mansion. They were just fun elements that helped to introduce the mood of the story. And these new elements continue in that fine tradition.

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by danyoung View Post
    I don't see any incongruity in the creatures in the queue any more than I ever had a problem with all of the headstones of all of the Imagineers..
    There is a large difference between this:



    And this:



    The tribute stones were supposed to represent real tombstones, whether they were supposed to people who lived in the mansion or otherwise. That is why (like HBG2 posted) they made sure that there would be enough room to bury a body, just to give the illusion of this being a real Haunted House. Their epitaphs are humorous just to pass the time by.

    "See there it is, you admit they are funny!"

    Yes they are, but realistic none the less. Have you ever heard of or visited Boot Hill cemetery in Arizona? Well, here are some examples of the grave-markers that are there:







    Real, all real. And that justifies the original tribute stone's epitaphs. They were not a vital part of the attraction, but did not spoil the rest of it for you.
    This on the other hand...



    ...does not even attempt to represent a real person's tomb. It is as if they are trying to make crypts for ghosts rather than people.

    And then, of course, there is the fact that the ghosts are unable to materialize before Madame Leota summons them, but that is a whole different story.
    Last edited by MasterGracey13; 05-16-2011 at 12:30 PM.

  12. #87

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Wow, this is an interesting thread.
    To me is seems that there are two arguments. The first is that people like the queue and it is all in good fun and the second is that it fundamentally changes the ride.

    It can be assumed that most of the visitors of the HM don’t know (or care) about the back story or what the original imaginers intended. Danyoung, I’m grouping you here (just for clarity’s sake – I’m sure it is an oversimplification) and this”fun” group will be the overwhelming majority. I’m grouping HBG and MG13 into the other “purist” camp.

    For the first group, enjoyment trumps consistency. They may never even realize when thematic mistakes are made. They will think the queue is whimsical and enjoyable. They will marvel at a floating Leota not realizing (or caring) that the original joke is ruined [we expect to see a person in the chair looking into a crystal ball; not a person inside the crystal ball]. As long as the experience is enjoyable, everything is OK.
    This is all about personal enjoyment and can be illogical or sheer fantasy. Many will not look too closely at the details or inconsistencies. “It’s just a ride!”

    Because of this, it will be hard to understand the hard core realists. Emotions and logic are two very separate beasts.

    The much smaller “purists” can see instantly that the new queue breaks a lot of rules (of which the majority are unaware of.)

    It cannot be disputed that this is the first time children have been depicted as ghosts, or that a lot of liberties have been taken in the queue. It has also made the ride silly from the get go. It is filled with spoilers. The argument that most first-timers will probably bypass it is silly and disrespectful to the creators of the queue. I won’t pretend to know what they were thinking, but I can assume that they wanted most people to enjoy it and hopefully return to see it again. I don’t think any creator wants their work to be skipped entirely or only viewed once.

    These two groups can sympathize but never agree with each other. I’ve thought of a few examples where these two groups will clash.

    As a child I loved the original Clash of the Titans. Later I considered it an abomination to the original Greek myths.

    Most people think the Narnia series is about a lion and don’t recognize the Jesus connection.

    Some people would watch the Star Wars series in sequential order not caring about the shocking revelation of Luke’s parentage in episode 5. Some don’t care that Han shot first”. Others find this a fundamental character shift.

    There was a time when they gave Shakespeare plays happy endings and even now most Disney films are not true to the older versions of their stories (EX The little Mermaid)

    What the first group needs to understand is that good storytellers have many levels in their stories. They are perfectly aware that the masses will miss these layers (and are now included as DVD extras) but their hope is that someone will notice them. There are famous paintings in Ariel’s grotto and most character names are symbolic.

    These are details that the purists love and why they so vehemently oppose the new queue. The PLQ is Hamlet’s happy Ending; Bobo the mechanical owl; the Asleanesque “further in” ending to Lost; and Homer Simpson saying “I can’t believe he was Luke’s Father!” (I removed the spoiler for the one person who hasn’t seen the movie yet.)

    Sure, some people can watch “The Core” or any other disaster movie and not cringe at the bad science. It’s entertainment.

    Sorry for digressing.

    Early in the thread several posters tried to counter the “purist” argument with “it didn’t change the ride for me”. From your emotional camp that is a valid argument, however it is irrelevant to the purists who have facts and data on their side. Sure it is unimportant or unknown to fun crowd, but the facts remain.

    When I visit the queue, it will be like watching Clash of the Titans again. It will be fun, tactile and a good photo op. However, I will consider it separately from the rest of the attraction.

  13. #88

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Thanks, KK. Just a couple of comments. Quote: "The argument that most first-timers will probably bypass it is silly." Huh? Who has argued that? Of course first-timers are going to go see it.

    You bring in analogies with other "classic" works that have bastardized (Clash of the Titans --> Greek Myths; Revised StarWars4 --> Original StarWars4; Happy ending Shakespeare --> Original; etc.). The implication is that the originals are still there and may still be enjoyed, so maybe we should all calm down. But the analogies have their limits. Imagine if StarWars4 was revised (Han shoots second) AND all copies and prints and DVD's and VHS's etc were confiscated and destroyed, so that there was no possible way to see the original. Imagine if only the bowdlerized Shakespeares could be found and no copies of the original endings had survived. You see the point? This isn't a seasonal overlay. All of us are now forced to experience the WDW HM one way and one way only. The HM experience that has been there since 1971 is now gone.

    The folks who have always experienced it in the Carsillo way seem extraordinarily callous about this. I have never criticized anyone who wants to enjoy the HM as a funsy ride, as a loose collection of amusing scenes, and nothing more. That's legitimate. I have had plenty of people in that camp, however, who have told me that I'm taking it all too seriously, that I'm making more of it than is there, etc. Look guys, just because you see nothing more to it doesn't mean there's nothing more to it.

    I'm telling you, something very special has been ruined here, and if those who see it are in a minority, that proves nothing. All of this highfalutin "theory" and "analysis" that we're criticized for is nothing more than an attempt to elucidate what is really there. Or was there and is there no more, thanks to Peter Carsillo, Eric Goodman, and Eric Jacobson.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  14. #89

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    I'm telling you, something very special has been ruined here...
    I will add one thing to the above - something very special has been ruined FOR YOU. There is simply no way that anyone, either for or against the new queue, can state empirically that the ride has been ruined by the new additions. It's just not something that can be proved. FOR YOU, the theme has shifted. For ME, it has not.

    And Karl, while I appreciate your analysis and agree with most of it, I'd have to put myself somewhere in between the two types of people you talked about. I know in great detail the backstory of the mansion. I know all about the original ride, having been in SoCal back in 1969. I'm well versed in Disney history, including the parks, the movies, TV, and the man himself. So I really can understand the points that HBG and others have been making. I just don't agree with them, at least for me.

  15. #90

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    Re: 4/19: Grim Grinning?, Part III

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreepy Karl View Post
    The argument that most first-timers will probably bypass it is silly and disrespectful to the creators of the queue. I won’t pretend to know what they were thinking, but I can assume that they wanted most people to enjoy it and hopefully return to see it again. I don’t think any creator wants their work to be skipped entirely or only viewed once.
    That was my argument in the original article - that first timers would skip it. Obviously, I have a different view than you on this point (though I agree with much of the rest of your post).

    If the creators didn't want their work skipped, why would they create a bypass queue?

    And I've visited probably 15 times since the new queue has been opened, and I've seen plenty of people skip the queue. I still believe that a lot of first-time visitors will opt for the "short" way rather than the "fun" way. There are plenty of Orlando-Commando families out there who concentrate ONLY on maximizing rides per day.
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