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Thread: 4/24: Tired

  1. #121

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by cruise View Post
    I do find it slightly amusing that the same people who aren't willing to vote with their feet and walk away from Al's articles hold the same position with regards to WDW and won't vote with their feet and walk away from that situation.
    I've seen variations on the above before, and sorry, but I just don't get it. It's completely reasonable to look at WDW and see that there are problems, but still get a boatload of enjoyment out of vacationing there. If the place sinks beneath your own personal threshold of quality, then don't go. But don't cut off your nose to spite your face, refusing to vacation at WDW because their (insert attraction here) isn't as good as you think it should be.

    And speaking of DCA, I was right there with everyone else at the beginning in realizing that it was a pretty crappy park for Disney to put out. But that didn't mean that there weren't some attractions that were first rate, like Soarin', Tower of Terror, and the Animation Lobby. I'm not going to spend days in DCA, but I'm sure gonna go in there and experience the things that I enjoy. To stop going to DCA with the hope that "that'll show 'em" just seems naive to me.

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by danyoung View Post
    I've seen variations on the above before, and sorry, but I just don't get it. It's completely reasonable to look at WDW and see that there are problems, but still get a boatload of enjoyment out of vacationing there. If the place sinks beneath your own personal threshold of quality, then don't go. But don't cut off your nose to spite your face, refusing to vacation at WDW because their (insert attraction here) isn't as good as you think it should be.

    And speaking of DCA, I was right there with everyone else at the beginning in realizing that it was a pretty crappy park for Disney to put out. But that didn't mean that there weren't some attractions that were first rate, like Soarin', Tower of Terror, and the Animation Lobby. I'm not going to spend days in DCA, but I'm sure gonna go in there and experience the things that I enjoy. To stop going to DCA with the hope that "that'll show 'em" just seems naive to me.
    I hear your point about not hitting Disney parks at all, I mean even with DCA in the state it was those first few years there was still Disneyland so maybe I can't fully appreciate walking away from Disney Parks entirely.

    But as to your second point, I think its totally valid to vote with your feet. If you look at at DCA's numbers relative to the timetable of improvements there, there is a pretty close correlation between quality and visitors. Maybe you're an annual passholder so you still hit ToT or Soarin' back then before heading back across the way, but I bet you didn't stay long or eat and buy merchandise there. You may not have know it but were that the scenario, you were in a way voting with your feet. For passholders DCA only really was an expansion land of Disneyland that had Soarin' and ToT, and Disney saw no real economic gains from passholders in the park. But now with the rich detail at the park that expands all of the way down to the unique food/merchandise options of Carsland, they will finally be providing a quality of experience that drives spending. There is nothing special to me about buying a corn dog and turing around to stare at Jumpin' Jellyfish while I eat it, but I'm more than willing to stroll through a Victorian Pier and play old school games or through 1920's Los Angeles with a big ice cream... and I bet more people will be willing to spend more too.

    Even Universal has seen increases in attendance as they have expanded in recent years. I know I've been to Universal Parks more times in recent years than my entire life before that combined, why? Because their quality of experience has vastly improved. And what have we seen with the increased attendance... a park that went from sporadic low budget new offerings (think "Spiderman Rocks!") with a big addition every 4 years to a place that now has churned out King Kong, Transformers and soon Harry Potter all within 4 years. Attendance drives everything, and quality should drive attendance.
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  3. #123

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Al’s done a great job over the years filling us in on various aspects of stuff happening in the parks, it takes real time to gather the info he has, and a lot of folks in the Mouse House don’t like to let info get leaked. Al’s criticism of DLR has had a real impact, if anybody writes a definitive chapter on DLR, then Al would get much, much more than a blurb and a little less than a chapter.

    I was mildly shocked when I read the controversial comment, but given what has happened at WDW, I see where it is coming from, and I don’t think Al was specifically slamming readers of Miceage, or even dedicated fans or guests of WDW, but that he wanted to make people realize that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I used to frequent WDW, and it has declined since the 1990s and even from a decade ago when everything seemed fresher.

    You gotta wonder why WDW slid down hill, TDO really doesn’t care as much about the hardcore fans. No haunted mansion holiday, half-baked attractions, no CBJ Christmas Show, and despite a publicized protest . . . they let Toad die.

    I think that TDA is more responsive to complaints (outside of the higher ratio of APers), than is TDO. There is a growing fan base, and believe me, TDO advertises the annual Garden festival all over the state, all the way down to Miami, they do want local business. TDO can’t just sit back and let the money roll in anymore, with Uni giving them real competition, they need to step-up their game. They know this, which is why FLE was done, in part.

    The hardcore WDW fans (not all locals) had their backs broken when Toad was killed, despite an outpour against it. Would it have been that hard to build a stand-alone Toad attraction somewhere in Fantasyland by moving the ride?

    What do people think is going to happen? That Disney will magically make a second Toad film which if it makes a good profit will lead to Toad coming back to MK and being put into Snow White's location? That'll happen when an elephant flies!

  4. #124

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by danyoung View Post
    I've seen variations on the above before, and sorry, but I just don't get it. It's completely reasonable to look at WDW and see that there are problems, but still get a boatload of enjoyment out of vacationing there. If the place sinks beneath your own personal threshold of quality, then don't go. But don't cut off your nose to spite your face, refusing to vacation at WDW because their (insert attraction here) isn't as good as you think it should be.

    And speaking of DCA, I was right there with everyone else at the beginning in realizing that it was a pretty crappy park for Disney to put out. But that didn't mean that there weren't some attractions that were first rate, like Soarin', Tower of Terror, and the Animation Lobby. I'm not going to spend days in DCA, but I'm sure gonna go in there and experience the things that I enjoy. To stop going to DCA with the hope that "that'll show 'em" just seems naive to me.
    My first trip to Disneyland, after DCA was built, I was there for 4 days. I spent all of about 6 hours of those 4 days at DCA. I have been back to Disneyland about 5 times, and have never set foot in DCA again. I'm sorry, but 2 quality rides, Tower of Terror and Soarin' just aren't enough to get me into a poorly designed theme park with no shade or transportation. I'm only now considering a return trip to DCA.

    Doug

    ---------- Post added 04-26-2012 at 03:01 AM ----------

    Why on earth would anyone want to drink Starbuck's coffee? That is the worst swill ever pushed on the American public, and they have the nerve to claim its quality coffee. I can't believe people actually drink this crap and think its good. As P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute"

    Surely Disney could find a quality coffee producer to provide a good cup of joe at the parks!

    Doug
    Last edited by AtomicAge; 04-26-2012 at 02:01 AM.
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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Fans are the ones that are going to be active.. fans are the ones that will be vocal..

    Simply put... WDW has far more CUSTOMERS than fans. So while the fans are jumping up and down.. they are lost in the sea of customers.

    Anyone who shapes their view of WDW purely from Micechat is getting a seriously distorted view. The level of coverage and insight here is just so tiny.. and all you hear is the complaining and not the rest of the story. There are lots of issues - but the actual activity isn't covered here.. generally just the abstract bitching.
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  6. #126

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Fans are the ones that are going to be active.. fans are the ones that will be vocal..

    Simply put... WDW has far more CUSTOMERS than fans. So while the fans are jumping up and down.. they are lost in the sea of customers.
    Wow. It two sentences you just summerized my entire open letter to Al. Nicely done.

  7. #127

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Simply put... WDW has far more CUSTOMERS than fans. So while the fans are jumping up and down.. they are lost in the sea of customers.
    Great nutshell distillation of the problem. This is why "fans jumping up and down" get dismissed so easily as cranks. Even when they are 'right' they look so out of sync with the rest of the population that it appears they are in fact wrong. Add to that the company's hiring of planted shills on discussion boards and the enticing of new media to lavish multiday hotel stays, and you've got even less vocal criticism.
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  8. #128

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    The reason I, as a WDW fan, have gotten disproportionately happy about the Orange Bird is that we’ve seen TDO make so many boneheaded, arbitrary, penny-wise-and-pound-foolish decisions over the past twenty years that the reversal of even a small one seems like a big deal.

    It’s like watching someone you love, who used to have it all together, go off the skids. If he takes even a short break from spending the grocery money on video games and forgetting to refill his blood pressure medicine to do something simple like pick his laundry up off the floor, yes, it makes you happy.

  9. #129

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    Great nutshell distillation of the problem. This is why "fans jumping up and down" get dismissed so easily as cranks. Even when they are 'right' they look so out of sync with the rest of the population that it appears they are in fact wrong. Add to that the company's hiring of planted shills on discussion boards and the enticing of new media to lavish multiday hotel stays, and you've got even less vocal criticism.
    What gets people dismissed is when they take extreme positions and refuse to acknowledge anything contrary to their spiel. When people are down on the company.. quick to leap to devious reasons.. and can't accept anything that doesn't fit the image of company evil, lack of upkeep, lack of attention... They are the ones that build up an image.

    The same applies for those that are all pro, all the time.

    It's not if someone is positive or negative - it's they get trapped and wound up so much they can't evaluate or appreciate anything without the heavy predisposition.

    Basically it's the lack of balance and people's bias that sinks them into being labeled as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    Add to that the company's hiring of planted shills on discussion boards and the enticing of new media to lavish multiday hotel stays, and you've got even less vocal criticism.
    I really don't put much weight into the 'Disney is buying out the social media' agenda either. So what if Disney is comp'ing social media. It's standard practice, just with a new amateur audience instead of the classic audience of travel agents, news media, etc. At the end of the day, it's the readership and community that dictate the prominence of a social media person/resource. If people were coming to a site because it was a fair and balanced view... if it stops being that.. people will stop visiting.

    The whole Disney interfering with social media through comp'ing 'concern' I think is hyped up more by those who are left on the OUTSIDE than it really is a legitimate concern.

    Those who want to be an independent voice.. will strive to be so.. regardless of vendor influence. If their following is based on that... if they lose the independent voice, they will lose their following and image that created their following in the first place. It's not immediate, but nature does take it's course.
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  10. #130

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee View Post
    Great nutshell distillation of the problem. This is why "fans jumping up and down" get dismissed so easily as cranks. Even when they are 'right' they look so out of sync with the rest of the population that it appears they are in fact wrong. Add to that the company's hiring of planted shills on discussion boards and the enticing of new media to lavish multiday hotel stays, and you've got even less vocal criticism.
    I doubt that Disney would hire "planted shills" for the discussion boards and even Disney's official blog has a plethora of negative comments attached to stories which are little more than propaganda. If one of these "planted shills" got fired, quit, and then told their story to the press, it would be a disaster.

    Everyone's got an opinion, I guess there is/was a small sliver of the fan base that like even super-star limo.

    While WDW may have less APers, they do want/need repeat business from families that go once very 5-10 years. There are plenty of folks on the WDW board who are upset that Big Thunder is going down, and hence Splash is skipping its refurb for now, and I think there was some controversy about Disney not admitting that Test Track was going down. Meaning, that the internet HAS changed how guests plan their WDW vacation, as TDO tried to coverup the fact that Test Track was going down.

    I think that things will change at WDW as there's a plethora of negative comments about WDW on the internet, and it is hitting the bottom line. Due to FLE's approaching opening date, I think that WDW will get some pluses as FLE has the potential to pull in repeat business.

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    What gets people dismissed is when they take extreme positions and refuse to acknowledge anything contrary to their spiel. When people are down on the company.. quick to leap to devious reasons.. and can't accept anything that doesn't fit the image of company evil, lack of upkeep, lack of attention... They are the ones that build up an image.

    The same applies for those that are all pro, all the time....

    ...Basically it's the lack of balance and people's bias that sinks them into being labeled as such....

    ...If people were coming to a site because it was a fair and balanced view... if it stops being that.. people will stop visiting....
    What exactly defines "extreme positions," "lack of balance," "bias" and "a fair and balanced view" in a Disney discussion forum, or indeed in any discussion format, virtual or live? Precisely how would such definitions be arrived at and agreed upon? And who would be qualified to judge when the definitions apply to a particular individual's statement and when they do not?

    I would respectfully suggest that your entire argument is a fallacy predicated upon the unsupported assumptions that such terms can be defined in a way that is accepted by all as "fair and balanced," and that there exists a "fair and balanced" method of applying such definitions to the utterances of individuals.

    In other words, your argument is born of the bias you decry -- you're just as biased as I, Al Lutz, the rest of Disney fandom, and humanity at large. Welcome to the club!

    (And by the way, I enjoy your posts, even the ones I disagree with. As my wife assured me just the other day, I'm nothing if not fair and... uhm... balanced.)
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 04-26-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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  12. #132

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by cruise View Post
    This is a wake up call, Disney is a corporate entity and unless WDW locals/visitors do a better job of expressing the dissatisfaction they feel there will be no change. It's supply and demand.

    And after what we've seen at WDW I can't understand these comments criticizing Al for being too hard on management? This attitude gets you Disneyland circa the late 1990's. Literally. Without commentary on Disneyland from sites like these we would have that kind of Disneyland.

    Could this have been phrased better, yes. Should it have been, no. We need a more cohesive effort to turn WDW around. And for the record, the distaste on this site for WDW as of recent had not been hidden, so no need to be outraged now just because it was put a little more concisely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seawolf View Post
    The people complaining about Al's post are simply trying to find something to get offended about. What they fail to realize is that he is attempting to help WDW by conjuring up some passion on the side of fans. His goal is to merely change attitudes of visitors like he did with Disneyland in the 90's, promoting real change. Instead of taking it as an insult you should be thanking him for trying. If you truly think that Al was saying every WDW fan deserves a crappy experience, you obviously were not reading with an open mind. Could it have been said it a better way, probably yes, but that doesn't change the motivation behind the statement.
    Both comments are well said. I think people need to understand what Al was trying to say, and not take it as a personal insult.

    I agree this was meant to stir passion to fight, not criticize all the WDW guests. There are many people who are very passionate about that resort already, but it takes a lot to get noticed by TDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Fans are the ones that are going to be active.. fans are the ones that will be vocal..

    Simply put... WDW has far more CUSTOMERS than fans. So while the fans are jumping up and down.. they are lost in the sea of customers.

    Anyone who shapes their view of WDW purely from Micechat is getting a seriously distorted view. The level of coverage and insight here is just so tiny.. and all you hear is the complaining and not the rest of the story. There are lots of issues - but the actual activity isn't covered here.. generally just the abstract bitching.
    Kind of the catch-22 that WDW has, being a mostly customer based resort. While WDW fans need more passion, it is kind of hard to create that among people who may visit once, twice or every decade.

    As far as WDW discussion, I agree Flynnibus, while MiceChat covers all the Disney parks, it is still primarily a Disneyland site.

    Before I came to MiceChat I was on another Disney site for almost 3 years (I still participate on that site as well). That site is primarily focused on WDW. While it has a forum for Disneyland, the discussion there mirrors the WDW discussion on this site. I actually found MiceChat when I wanted to find more discussion on the problems when Murphy, when she was first being added to Fantasmic. The talk was almost non-existent on the "WDW" site.

    Just the nature of MiceChat is that there will almost always be more bias towards Disneyland here, just as you will find the same for WDW on other sites. Which may not mean the criticism is any less warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by boisemice View Post
    With that being said, here were our thoughts (on WDW) .... the transportation was awful, the crowds were unmanageable, the food service was terrible, and the CMs, for the most part, were just there to do their jobs and never went out of their way to be friendly or talkative. Ascetically, the park was in WAY better condition than DL. We couldn't, and still can't, quite figure out why the staff, transportation, and crowds weren't reflecting the true vision of what we have grown to love about Disney.
    I've been to WDW about every 3 years since 1985. Originally from AZ, I've been to Disneyland all my life. I've had many great experiences from CMs in Florida, going far and beyond what they needed to do, to please us. You will find good and bad CMs at all the parks. DL and WDW both have plenty of things I love, and hate.

    .





  13. #133

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I doubt that Disney would hire "planted shills" for the discussion boards and even Disney's official blog has a plethora of negative comments attached to stories which are little more than propaganda.
    It was a year or two ago, but there was a job ad from Disney looking for someone to do essentially that. It got discussed in several online forums.
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    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I doubt that Disney would hire "planted shills" for the discussion boards....
    There are Shills and there are shills. This forum and others have had periods of being besieged by both.

    There also have been a number of discussions here about the outside company that Disney hired to help it "control its message" via social media.
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    Re: 4/24: Tired

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    What exactly defines "extreme positions," "lack of balance," "bias" and "a fair and balanced view" in a Disney discussion forum, or indeed in any discussion format, virtual or live?
    I don't need to spell that out - the dictionary already does that for me and there are plenty of examples on this forum and many others. You know exactly what I'm saying and I'm not going down a rathole to try to lay it out pretty so you can try to nitpick it apart.

    It's very clear when people aren't giving a party a fair shake.. especially when you have past history available to review.

    Ever notice Al never covers the activities at WDW (presumably to leave to Kevin to cover) - yet he has no qualms about snide passive remarks or straight up attacks about it, and now people that visit WDW. Al only spends time mentioning Orlando if it's in an effort to crap on it. He plays hands off with discussion of activity or positives about Orlando.. yet doesn't play the same hands off if it's an opportunity to slam Orlando. That's not fair nor balanced.

    Notice in the Leap Day articles how he hung almost complete blame on Orlando - yet in this latest article when he mentions the Leap Day issue... he hangs the failure on TDA. Wonder if someone 'clarified' things for him afterwards.. so now he has a new spiel.. yet doesn't take back his spurs from before.

    If Al is treating people fairly, why only dedicate time and space if its an opportunity crap on them?

    Contrast that with someone like say.. Dustysage. Dustysage certainly has a preference in what he wants to see, and what parks/activities he likes. But he is fair in that he is willing to give time or attention to both positive AND negative items. He doesn't turn a blind eye and focus all on one path. He weighs both the past and present. But wait.. Dustysage not only visits WDW, but if I recall he even has an AP for it and continues to make yearly and multiple trips per year. So I guess he's part of the problem with WDW too...
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