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  1. #46

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    While they exaggerated the issues - it doesn't change that the attraction is extremely intensive to operate and maintain.

    They are talking about PROJECTION bulbs more likely - not light bulbs. And you can't replace those types of bulbs with LED yet. Tho 'tens of thousands' sounds absurd.
    I found a website which explains that LED projectors don't have bulbs to change and are practically maintenance free.

    LED Projectors

    Quote, "LED light sources have some serious advantages over conventional lamps. LED projectors require little maintenance, as there is no lamp to be changed. Furthermore, LED light sources last significantly longer than the competition."

    The real angst the subs creates is concerns from legal as you've got guests going down those twisty stairways and some people have problems doing this, its an *awkward* way to load guests, though it has worked for years and years.

    The fake light bulb issue is totally made-up by the suits as a way to justify closing the ride. Yeah, there are some maintenance issues, but not nearly as much as Splash. Who said that a lower capacity D-Ticket type ride needs to be relatively plain like LFT?
    Last edited by chesirecat; 06-26-2012 at 12:01 PM.

  2. #47

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    With the latest LED technology, there is no reason whatsoever to be replacing "tens of thousands of dollars" of bulbs each month, that is a complete lie by somebody.
    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    They are talking about PROJECTION bulbs more likely - not light bulbs. And you can't replace those types of bulbs with LED yet. Tho 'tens of thousands' sounds absurd.
    They are talking about the Christie projector bulbs, and this does sound realistic. During the Star Tours 2 relaunch I personally talked to one of the maintenance engineers who helped build the original Star Tours and well as Indiana Jones. He told me one of the biggest cost of Star Tours is replacing the projector bulbs. I don't remember the exact numbers he gave me for hours on bulbs, and the cost of each bulb, but they were very expensive. He told me it was cheaper replacing 70mm film prints on the original Star Tours, than projector bulbs on the new Star Tours.





  3. #48

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Great update, Al!

    If Autopia and the subs are removed, what would that mean for families? When I was young, Autopia was my staple ride. I probably made my parents go on Autopia at least twice a day when we would visit. Same for the subs- large families are able to travel together and enjoy the ride with one another. (As opposed to being separated into cars).

    I'm not so sure about the Marvel theme park....just seems "un-Disney" to me (more Universal studios). Though, Disney needs to "keep-ahead of the Jones." It would be interesting, having comic book characters traveling around the park.

  4. #49

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I found a website which explains that LED projectors don't have bulbs to change and are practically maintenance free.
    The existence of some LED projectors does not mean they are suitable for all projection applications including the projectors in the sub show building. Just like the existence of digital projections doesn't mean they can replace IMAX film projectors.
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  5. #50

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The existence of some LED projectors does not mean they are suitable for all projection applications including the projectors in the sub show building. Just like the existence of digital projections doesn't mean they can replace IMAX film projectors.
    This.

    That link was for home projector systems. For a commercial application such as the Nemo Subs they would most likely need much higher light output than most LED's are capable of. I know on the production side of things bulbs that are made for film production are really expensive (depending on the light a single bulb can be thousands of dollars). I would imagine that the projection side of things would be no different.

  6. #51

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The existence of some LED projectors does not mean they are suitable for all projection applications including the projectors in the sub show building. Just like the existence of digital projections doesn't mean they can replace IMAX film projectors.
    Nope.

    IMAX is working on a digital laser project system, and they will in the future make them "powerful" enough to display traditional IMAX sized films. Digital projection is the future, and is already being used by IMAX on smaller screens with maybe two digital projectors.

    That being said, it is laughable that Disney thinks they need to use Christie projectors for Star Tours . . . the screen isn't that big, maybe you can even buy digital televisions that size. There are plenty of digital projectors which could do the job in Star Tours. They can whine and moan about replacing light bulbs, but they probably don't want to invest in digital projection, though it would probably save them money over the years.

    Same thing for Nemo, the screens used sure aren't IMAX sized, digital projection is low maintenance and cheaper when compared to 70 mm, ask IMAX they're making more of their money off of digital these days.

    ---------- Post added 06-26-2012 at 08:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by theswillmerchant View Post
    This.

    I know on the production side of things bulbs that are made for film production are really expensive (depending on the light a single bulb can be thousands of dollars). I would imagine that the projection side of things would be no different.
    Nope.

    Digital projection is becoming big business, and is making companies like IMAX money because it is cheaper to maintain the digital system and to display films. In the future, there won't be high cost projection bulbs to replace, and digital projection will be the standard and cheaper way to do things.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 06-26-2012 at 12:26 PM.

  7. #52

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Autopia is a workhorse attraction that has a capacity of maybe 3,200 per hour, plus 800 for the subs, that's 4,000 rides per hour!
    I've seen you pull out these numbers for Autopia before and not provide the info to back it up. Where are you getting this? There's no way they pull in more than 1,000 an hour, my source being watching the exit on a busy day. So... 3,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    In the future, there won't be high cost projection bulbs to replace, and digital projection will be the standard and cheaper way to do things.
    The projectors in Nemo were designed in 2002-2003, and are there in required to use the bulbs developed specifically for this one individual projection system. They are completely unique.

    Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage- How Imagineer Tony Baxter helped bring Disneyland's classic sub ride back

    Yes, it is the way of the future, and yes it will be less expensive. But the ride is not the future. It's top of the line 10 year old tech. And 10 year tech is more expensive. Try buying some DDR1 RAM. Or an original MAC. Same thing applies to projection that is special. $$$.
    Last edited by lightofdarkness; 06-26-2012 at 12:55 PM.

  8. #53

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Nope.

    IMAX is working on a digital laser project system...
    There, highlighted the important part for you. You go on and on about where things are headed (we know this.. ) but ignore where things are NOW.. which is what is relevant to the subs.

    And don't get people started on IMAX-Lite vs true IMAX, etc.

    Maybe since you know so much how things should be - you should have been walking around the floor at Infocomm the other week and telling all the projection companies how things really are and they should have been using LED instead of what their actual usage dictates they use.

    Digital is already the standard in everything but very large format - and there video wall and video processors handle most applications. But that really is not relevant to the discussion of LED light sources vs other bulb formats. Nemo is already digital - as is Star Tours. That is independent of LED vs other light sources.
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  9. #54

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    I say we need to look at the plans that are being considered for the new Tomorrowland before considering what should stay and what should go.

    It's far too soon to consider a third park. DCA 2.0 needs some room and time to grow. And a third park would mean that more Disney hotels would be needed for the tourists. Parking is already an issue. Even if Disney were to buy Garden Walk, you'll still have so much demand for parking and hotels and no room to fill the demand if a third park is built on the Toy Story lot.
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  10. #55

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    I agree. I really love the subs, but the original Submarine Voyage no longer exists. At this point, it's too early to tell whether or not the new plans for TL will be for the better. However, landscape-wise, the lagoon is unique, and I would hate to see it go.

    Regarding DCA, a lot more work needs to be done ... but it needs TIME (and $) to grow. I hope more land will be used to expand the park itself rather than to build hotels on its footprint.

    ---------- Post added 06-26-2012 at 04:34 PM ----------

    Yea TRON! That seems like a great fit for TL, especially considering it used to be a part of the People Mover and Elect-TRONica's recent success.
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  11. #56

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightofdarkness View Post
    I've seen you pull out these numbers for Autopia before and not provide the info to back it up. Where are you getting this? There's no way they pull in more than 1,000 an hour, my source being watching the exit on a busy day. .
    I apologize for not quoting my source, I looked up the exact number from, Fun Facts of Disneyland's Autopia,

    and got an absolute ride capacity of 2,843/hour, but maybe the more practical number is 1,800 to 2,000 on average as maybe the line isn't always long.

    The reason why Autopia eats more guests than LM is because you load so many cars at once, every couple minutes. Yeah, it's a people eater alright, so add on the subs and you're approaching 3,000 guests per hour.

    ---------- Post added 06-26-2012 at 09:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post

    They are talking about PROJECTION bulbs more likely - not light bulbs. And you can't replace those types of bulbs with LED yet. Tho 'tens of thousands' sounds absurd.
    As I mentioned, there are new "lamp-less" LED digitals projectors. As they are apparently using projector bulbs in Star Tours, I figured they hadn't gone digital yet due to issues regarding redesigning the ride vehicles, though obviously a lot of older digital projectors use these bulbs. Digital projectors used for the size of the screen for Star Tours which are using incandescent bulbs are going the way of the dinosaur. The screen in Star Tours isn't that big, there are LED televisions that approach that size, and certainly there are "lamp-less" LED projectors which would do the job just fine.

    I guess when they were making the updated Star Tours they didn't consider this technology, though it is currently readily available now, wouldn't they make plans to upgrade and save tens of thousands a month?

    ---------- Post added 06-26-2012 at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    There, highlighted the important part for you. You go on and on about where things are headed (we know this.. ) but ignore where things are NOW.. which is what is relevant to the subs.

    But that really is not relevant to the discussion of LED light sources vs other bulb formats. Nemo is already digital - as is Star Tours. That is independent of LED vs other light sources.
    Oh, I wasn't sure that the video was digital, though given how they still used film recently in the parks, I didn't really know, though I was pretty sure that when they went digital it would save them in terms of costs of film and replacing and maintaining that. I was pretty sure they mentioned digital projectors for Nemo when they were doing that, and for Star Tours.

    But the fact is that digital projectors with LED light sources for those size applications are available today, nobody wants to pay for expensive projector bulbs with short lives, nobody in business, nobody in cinema, nobody in theme parks. They are on their way out, eventually Disney will make the switch, which I would figure would be very easy to do during a refurb, and save the laughable "tens of thousands" of dollars a month on projection bulbs.

    ---------- Post added 06-26-2012 at 10:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lightofdarkness View Post

    The projectors in Nemo were designed in 2002-2003, and are there in required to use the bulbs developed specifically for this one individual projection system. They are completely unique.
    Oh, OK, didn't know the history of Nemo's projection system. But given that they do have lamp-less projectors, even purchasable for home consumer use, which have much increased lifespan over centuries old incandescent technology, it would be practical to replace these now outdated projectors with something that doesn't cost "tens of thousands of dollars" a month. Heck, the LED projectors would save them money in under a year or two, I'm pretty sure they would offer the same if not better resolution.

    The could do this as there is no IMAX-sized screen in Nemo, as far as I know, as it looks like a lot of separate screens.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 06-26-2012 at 03:03 PM.

  12. #57

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Long time reader, first time poster! FWIW a few thoughts.

    I am surprised that there was not much mention of RSR's downtime. I think they will get it worked out, but if they don't it could be a problem.

    Nemo on the chopping block doesn't really surprise me, if this is a five year plan we are talking about, it could be a 10 year old attraction by then.

    I think I am most surprised about Autopia, and wonder if they could relocate it back to the second Autopia area that was across the way from the Matterhorn entrance.

    Thanks all for having me and thanks Al for your great articles! I love sharing them with friends and family!

  13. #58

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaG View Post
    Long time reader, first time poster! FWIW a few thoughts.

    I am surprised that there was not much mention of RSR's downtime. I think they will get it worked out, but if they don't it could be a problem.

    Nemo on the chopping block doesn't really surprise me, if this is a five year plan we are talking about, it could be a 10 year old attraction by then.

    I think I am most surprised about Autopia, and wonder if they could relocate it back to the second Autopia area that was across the way from the Matterhorn entrance.

    Thanks all for having me and thanks Al for your great articles! I love sharing them with friends and family!
    Years and years ago, the Tomorrowland Autopia was so successful that they built a second Fantasyland Autopia, and then they connected both of the tracks, which gives you a much longer ride than the one in Walt Disney world. It is almost too long, but it is a nice break from the business of the park, though it is no where near as nice as Hong Kong Disneyland's Autopia which is electric and has futuristic looking plants and stuff.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuvWKsqu0UU

    I hope they upgrade the Autopia instead of removing it as it remains as popular ride as evidenced by both the Fast Pass option and moderate lines. One of the few rides where kids can actually "drive" or pilot a ride vehicle.

  14. #59

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Years and years ago, the Tomorrowland Autopia was so successful that they built a second Fantasyland Autopia, and then they connected both of the tracks, which gives you a much longer ride than the one in Walt Disney world. It is almost too long, but it is a nice break from the business of the park, though it is no where near as nice as Hong Kong Disneyland's Autopia which is electric and has futuristic looking plants and stuff.

    Autopia HKDL HD by Dolbyman - YouTube

    I hope they upgrade the Autopia instead of removing it as it remains as popular ride as evidenced by both the Fast Pass option and moderate lines. One of the few rides where kids can actually "drive" or pilot a ride vehicle.
    I guess what I was kinda thinking, was move the queue back to the fantasyland side, shorten the ride and gain some space back in tomorrowland for the expansion....

  15. #60

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Someone asked the question of why Disney isn't thinking of a Water Park.

    Reason is, it's a seasonal operation. Southern California actually gets pretty cold and that means: no revenue during those times. It's more practical to have a theme park operation that can run year long.


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