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  1. #76

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    I would like to thank all the folks here at Micechat for the excellent work bringing all the gossip, photos, and genuine information regarding the Disney Parks. Bravo to all of you for the amazing job keeping everyone informed!

    No regarding the subs. First off. NO MATTER WHAT, the monorail will not be moved one inch as any time the word monorail is mentioned to WDI the price tag of even a minor change is unfathomable to the corporate accountants. So we will see what ever attractions replace Autopia and The Subs will have to work around the foot print of the Monorail. However what we may see is finally having a street parade that originates from Town Square each and every time. This idea has been bouncing around WDI for at least 30 years or longer. When one realizes the depth of the subs show building and how much room is truly there once one takes those attractions out, moving the monorail is an unnecessary endeavor. I know everyone has very nostalgic feelings about certain attractions. Sometimes we have to let go of the old attractions in order to get new ones. Disneyland is a very limited foot print and when one really grasps how tight back stage is, they will be more forgiving when it comes to replacing attractions. Both Autopia and the Subs are a huge liability to the company. The lawyers are probably the ones behind the removal of these attractions as more cast members are hurt operating Autopia than any other attraction in the park. The subs are a nightmare from an operational stand point and they have outlived their usefulness. Walt himself said, "Disneyland will never be completed as long as their is imagination left in the world." Yes other than Star Tours and Space Mountain, pretty much all of Tomorrow Land needs to be bulldozed and re imagined. Perhaps we can have a return of the Flying Saucers now they have managed to rework the technology. Perhaps we will see the Astro Jets return atop of the people mover as the height is part of the appeal of that attraction. Perhaps we may just seem some really amazing attractions which nobody has seen yet except for those creative minds at WDI who have been patiently awaiting for the Executives to realize money needs to be spent to get people through the gates. When I worked for the park in the early 90's there was quite a bit of buzz about re-theming. It was canceled because they basically had to demo the whole land and rebuild it. Eisner did not want to spend the money. The concepts I saw at WDI at that time where some pretty groovy attractions. No good idea ever fails at WDI. The best ones are the ones where we have waited a very long time to see.

    I for one am very happy to hear we will finally see the demise or Autopia and the Subs. I have enjoyed both attractions more than my lifetimes allotment. It is time for us to build new memories with our children and let them fall in love with a fresh Tomorrow Land which does not look like a reworked 1960's Southern Californian Outdoor Mall.

    I foresee a day where we read about the removal of the Storybook Canals for a reworked Dumbo's Circus themed area which outshines the one in Florida. I foresee a day where Hollywood land finally lives up to its name and give us some classy attractions. I am still waiting to see WDI create the Ink and Paint Club and move Roger Rabbits Cartoon Spin over to Hollywood Land. Toon town was cute for its purpose. It is a dead end in the park. Perhaps we will see the original concept for Princess Meet and greets moved to the back half of Fantasyland and into toon town where they can actually plant a ton of trees to cool the area down.

    Bugs Land I am sad to say was a huge mistake. It has nothing to do with California and really looks as if it was forced into the park. Oh wait, it was. Perhaps we will see something themed to the Californios era or even China Town. Who knows. We have only seen the first act of this drama playing out. The curtain has fallen and while we discuss how we are enjoying the performance, the Imagineers are rapidly working on reinventing the Disney theme parks in the Post Eisner Bob Iger years. So enjoy your wine, remember the lobby bell will be ringing soon and we will see the lights flashed reminding us to return to our seats. Until that time, let us dream of all the possibilities and worry less about what we will be missing.
    Last edited by Kamerun; 06-27-2012 at 02:21 AM.

  2. #77

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    So many ideas for expansion! I have always thought that the back half of Tomorrowland (and including the old motorboat cruise area) was a total waste of space. Although there is something to be said for the kinetic energy of the Autopia and Monorail. There was so much more kinetic energy before though, with the PeopleMover, and Astro-Jets all moving at the same time.

    I will not miss Autopia, Subs, or Innoventions at all, especially if it means quality replacements. So much could be done in that space. Since the subs are "underground", they could just repurpose that area rather than fill it in as they did in Florida. That way, you could have a showbuilding that is large, but doesn't have to be so high...look at Space Mountain as a good example of how to do that. I wouldn't mind if they did have a much smaller Autopia somewhere in the expansion, kids seem to love it, but the current version is too large.

    As for a hotel on the East esplanade, it could easily work. It would have to be built with underground parking like the Grand Californian, and also it would have large "pass through" walkways for people arriving from Harbor, and also bus loading/unloading. It would be a nice anchor for that area though. Something that could tie into the Hollywood section of DCA maybe? I wouldn't mind seeing something that looked like either Tokyo Disney Resort's Ambassador Hotel, or Hong Kong Disneyland's Hollywood Hotel. Basically, and art-deco inspired building.

    The Marvel park sounds like it could be absolutely amazing! I don't think it would look like a Six Flags park at all. Not with the way WDI designs things anyway. Plus, it would be nice to have them in their own space, as opposed to being fit into an existing park where people might have issues with theme.

    As for parking...I wonder if Disney could finally buy the Garden Walk complex and just create a massive parking structure there. It would do better as a parking garage than a mall. They could also re-route the monorail to make a stop there and the new park, or just create something new, like a peoplemover to shuttle people from the garage to the various parks.

  3. #78

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrsMonroe View Post
    why would you compare the two? just because one has been around longer doesnt made it superior than the other attraction which is more visually appealing
    I'm not comparing the two. I meant that the Autopia was around since day one and it has since been duplicated at all the Disney parks worldwide. The subs have not been around nearly as long and we've seldom gone on them anyway.
    My top favorite Disneyland attractions:

    1. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
    2. Pirates of the Caribbean
    3. Splash Mountain
    4. Mad Tea Party
    5. Peter Pan's Flight
    6. Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin

  4. #79

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    Lightbulb Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    I think taking out the subs is a bad idea, repklacing them a good one. I think one of the cool things about the technology they are using is it should be some what easy to put some thing even better such as Journey to The Deep a Voyage Through The Seven Seas! That would be fun and educational
    Dave

  5. #80

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quick thought on doors at Elias & Co (which is lovely inside) - how about a revolving door for at least one entrance? Yes, they don't work for strollers or mobility devices but kids love them and they nicely tackle the a/c issue.

  6. #81

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamerun View Post
    I would like to thank all the folks here at Micechat for the excellent work bringing all the gossip, photos, and genuine information regarding the Disney Parks. Bravo to all of you for the amazing job keeping everyone informed!

    No regarding the subs. First off. NO MATTER WHAT, the monorail will not be moved one inch as any time the word monorail is mentioned to WDI the price tag of even a minor change is unfathomable to the corporate accountants. So we will see what ever attractions replace Autopia and The Subs will have to work around the foot print of the Monorail. However what we may see is finally having a street parade that originates from Town Square each and every time. This idea has been bouncing around WDI for at least 30 years or longer. When one realizes the depth of the subs show building and how much room is truly there once one takes those attractions out, moving the monorail is an unnecessary endeavor. I know everyone has very nostalgic feelings about certain attractions. Sometimes we have to let go of the old attractions in order to get new ones. Disneyland is a very limited foot print and when one really grasps how tight back stage is, they will be more forgiving when it comes to replacing attractions. Both Autopia and the Subs are a huge liability to the company. The lawyers are probably the ones behind the removal of these attractions as more cast members are hurt operating Autopia than any other attraction in the park. The subs are a nightmare from an operational stand point and they have outlived their usefulness. Walt himself said, "Disneyland will never be completed as long as their is imagination left in the world." Yes other than Star Tours and Space Mountain, pretty much all of Tomorrow Land needs to be bulldozed and re imagined. Perhaps we can have a return of the Flying Saucers now they have managed to rework the technology. Perhaps we will see the Astro Jets return atop of the people mover as the height is part of the appeal of that attraction. Perhaps we may just seem some really amazing attractions which nobody has seen yet except for those creative minds at WDI who have been patiently awaiting for the Executives to realize money needs to be spent to get people through the gates. When I worked for the park in the early 90's there was quite a bit of buzz about re-theming. It was canceled because they basically had to demo the whole land and rebuild it. Eisner did not want to spend the money. The concepts I saw at WDI at that time where some pretty groovy attractions. No good idea ever fails at WDI. The best ones are the ones where we have waited a very long time to see.

    I for one am very happy to hear we will finally see the demise or Autopia and the Subs. I have enjoyed both attractions more than my lifetimes allotment. It is time for us to build new memories with our children and let them fall in love with a fresh Tomorrow Land which does not look like a reworked 1960's Southern Californian Outdoor Mall.

    I foresee a day where we read about the removal of the Storybook Canals for a reworked Dumbo's Circus themed area which outshines the one in Florida. I foresee a day where Hollywood land finally lives up to its name and give us some classy attractions. I am still waiting to see WDI create the Ink and Paint Club and move Roger Rabbits Cartoon Spin over to Hollywood Land. Toon town was cute for its purpose. It is a dead end in the park. Perhaps we will see the original concept for Princess Meet and greets moved to the back half of Fantasyland and into toon town where they can actually plant a ton of trees to cool the area down.

    Bugs Land I am sad to say was a huge mistake. It has nothing to do with California and really looks as if it was forced into the park. Oh wait, it was. Perhaps we will see something themed to the Californios era or even China Town. Who knows. We have only seen the first act of this drama playing out. The curtain has fallen and while we discuss how we are enjoying the performance, the Imagineers are rapidly working on reinventing the Disney theme parks in the Post Eisner Bob Iger years. So enjoy your wine, remember the lobby bell will be ringing soon and we will see the lights flashed reminding us to return to our seats. Until that time, let us dream of all the possibilities and worry less about what we will be missing.
    An elegant and well-written and, for that matter, well-thought out commentary. However, some very real appeal of Disney (Land, World, etc) is the appeal of nostalgia. I enjoy taking my kids on Autopia just like I used to enjoy "driving" the cars myself, just as they will (would) enjoy taking their kids. The things that were fun for us as kids will be fun for future kids; kids don't change (they just grow up into Space Mountain and Indiana Jones and Star Tours). I don't mind an upgrade to something, so bring on the electric motors. And I personally don't like the submarine ride, but when we travel to DL this fall, one of the things that my 7yo wants to ride is the submarines.

    And replacing the Storybook Canals for a Dumbo's circus? Really?!?! I guess you're not reading the commentary from those WDW fans who are wishing that their silly circus would be replaced by something akin to the Storybook Canal boats and Casey train.

    Be careful what you wish for...you just might get it.

  7. #82

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactushugr View Post
    Quick thought on doors at Elias & Co (which is lovely inside) - how about a revolving door for at least one entrance? Yes, they don't work for strollers or mobility devices but kids love them and they nicely tackle the a/c issue.
    I would assume theres safety/liability issues with that idea. Also possibly too little traffic through a doorway.

  8. #83

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    I actually agree with the idea of the Subs and Autopia being removed. (can't believe I said that) If the area is to be part of Tomorrowland, then the area should reflect that. Autopia has gas powered vehicles, hardly futuristic. And the subs are dated as well.
    For Tomorrowland to inspire and move forward, new ideas and exciting attractions should take it's place. Not be trapped as a type of museum.
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  9. #84

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by rreading View Post
    An elegant and well-written and, for that matter, well-thought out commentary. However, some very real appeal of Disney (Land, World, etc) is the appeal of nostalgia. I enjoy taking my kids on Autopia just like I used to enjoy "driving" the cars myself, just as they will (would) enjoy taking their kids. The things that were fun for us as kids will be fun for future kids; kids don't change (they just grow up into Space Mountain and Indiana Jones and Star Tours). I don't mind an upgrade to something, so bring on the electric motors. And I personally don't like the submarine ride, but when we travel to DL this fall, one of the things that my 7yo wants to ride is the submarines.

    And replacing the Storybook Canals for a Dumbo's circus? Really?!?! I guess you're not reading the commentary from those WDW fans who are wishing that their silly circus would be replaced by something akin to the Storybook Canal boats and Casey train.

    Be careful what you wish for...you just might get it.
    I understand and completely hear what you are saying. Having worked at the park I am personally nostalgic for the return of the Tahitian Terrace and the original Golden Horseshoe review and the original Swiss Family Tree House. However for better or worse, they are gone. There are those who are nostalgic for the Pack Mules and the Train Ride through Nature's Wonderland ending in the Rainbow Caverns. However there are many more people out there who enjoy Big Thunder Mountain Railroad.

    Yes Disney parks are all about nostalgia, yet 90% of the nostalgia in the Disney Parks are created by Imagineers. To keep the parks financially viable WDI has to reinvent the formula of nostalgia from time to time. We have seen many wonderful attractions go away only to have them replaced with newer or more exciting ones. Disneyland is a living breathing entity. The moment we restrict the growth and evolution of Walt's little Mickey Mouse Park, we limit his dream to becoming a museum of his dream.

    Once upon a time children got to drive their own cars at Disneyland. At that time, not every household had a car yet let alone more than one. Once upon a time we had only surface streets and the Freeway systems were only being designed and built out. The intrinsic problem with Tomorrowland is how to keep the Tomorrow in Tomorrowland. If we insist on WDI to maintain outdated visions of the future we end up with the mess we have now. Perhaps the back half of the park should be called Todayland. In Today land we can children can drive crowded freeways and practice road rage on other drivers. They could add a TSA search and probe pre-show for the Monorail and Subs.

    Bottom line is, the attractions being axed have served their purpose. They allowed for a major expansion to Disneyland in the 1960's. The gave children the chance to dream for a better brighter future. Now those very visions have come to become reality. If we need to let go of a 1960's version of Tomorrow to find a better theme, continuity and a broader range of new E, D, and C attractions, then we are stepping into the right direction.

    As far as letting go of the Story Book Canal attraction. Even Walt thought the attraction would only last for a few years before replacing it with the Big Rock Candy Mountain. So the very fact the attraction has been happily entertaining guests for the past 57 years, lets chalk it up to great design and good theming. Dumbo's Circus land did a few things for WDW, replaced a very inexpensive "land" with something which has more of a theme to it, created (hopefully) less wait time for Dumbo a traditionally painful wait for the experience, and allowed for more open space in a very congested Fantasyland for stroller parking and open play space for children to burn of some of their exuberant energy.

    I am careful for what I wish. I wish Disneyland will never be completed as long as their is imagination left in the world. I am wise enough to know nothing will last forever so I savor each moment of my life to insure I live what limited time I have on this planet is spent enjoying every aspect of it.

    Until the closure dates for these attractions is announced, I actively encourage each and every person who feels "nostalgic" towards them to ride them as often as possible, take as many photos as they can, video tape every inch of them, and enjoy those precious moments to their fullest as it is very likely they will never ever be repeated again.

  10. #85

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Thank you for advising on the new version of the Disneyland Encyclopedia. I have dog-eared my blue covered copy and am excited to see the new material.


    For some some great trip reports, features and reviews, please check out http://www.thedisneylandreport.com.

  11. #86

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by PerrysburgGuy View Post
    How about a "Come In, We're Open" sign on the doors?
    You mean, kind of like the ones businesses everywhere use?

    I thought the same thing. Two unmistakeable ways you know a store is open for business is either an open front door or an "open" sign. What did "open" signs in 1930s L.A. look like? To keep things thematically appropriate, of course. It'd be an easy fix, one would think.

  12. #87

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    All I can ask for is that Tomorrowland gets an overhaul that makes the place feel like a living, breathing land once again. While I'm disappointed that the Submarines are being looked at only through an expense POV, if the change is for the better, I'm ok with that.

    Changing it back to the old subs isn't the way to go though. It does use a huge amount of real estate, but it's also something very kinetic despite being slow... the sea gulls and the subs create just enough movement to add to the atmosphere.

    But as others have said, Tomorrowland isn't really futuristic right now. It needs the most TLC... and this is coming from an Indy Adv fan!

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Thanks for the update, Al. It's great hearing all the feedback from everyone as well.

    I'm glad to see Cars Land is getting a universally positive reception. I'm not a fan of the franchise, but what I do like about it is the scenery, and I've loved seeing it come to life in DCA. Glad to see it's helping DCA fulfill its original purpose of lifting some of the burden off of Disneyland.

    Ugh, I was hoping the One Disney merchandise in the Curio Shop would be replaced by Cars Land merch. But it appears the problem has only spread. Luckily the crowds will die down when fall comes around, and that'll give TDA time to stock up before the holidays. The interactive cars could use improvements, but I understand that they're difficult to operate with a ton of crowds. And yes, the door probkem could be solved with creative "We're open" signs and maybe a few CMs at the doorway welcoming guests inside. (If they do the latter, they could also install some revolving doors and a doorman to make sure no one gets hurt.)

    Now, about those DL expansions...safe to say that no one will miss Innoventions, and it'll free up a ton of space with that show building. I know some people like the Subs, but I'd personally love to see them go - the ride really is just like watching a shortened version of Finding Nemo with little difference, and again, it frees up a lot of space. Autopia is the one I'm most reluctant to see go, as it is one of those "classic rides" that all ages can enjoy - but it's old technology, which goes against the entire purpose of Tomorrowland. As long as it gets its fair share of tributes and exhibitions after it's gone, I think I can wave it good-bye. If it means actually turning Tomorrowland back into Tomorrowland, it's a necessary loss.

    Not sure what they could do to the unused space in Frontierland. I wouldn't mind getting an updated version of the mine train, as I wasn't around to experience the original, but I'd be surprised if they built that. As long as it's not another Toy Story ride, I'm interested to see what they do.

    Oh, and that Marvel theme park...see, I am a huge Marvel fan, so part of me is extremely enthusiastic about the idea. On the other hand, Disney should get the parking situation in order before they give it the green light, and then there's the question of whether building an entire theme park around one franchise is a good idea. They'd have to go beyond the movies and do some research in the comics in order to have enough material for a Disney-sized park. But I can already see a Marvel-style New York in the center of the park, with an Asgard land off to the side and Xavier's mansion/School for Gifted Youngsters somewhere nearby.

  14. #89

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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    I've been saying for years that the building itself for Innoventions has been holding them back from using that footprint intelligently for Tomorrowland. The fact that they're seriously considering finally getting rid of it is outstanding - it was a building made for a specific ride over 40 years ago. Time for change.

    As for the Autopia and Submarines - no huge surprise there, honestly. The Autopia is becoming more and more of a relic. People can go to indoor go-kart racing businesses for a better experience. And the Submarines, while nice to have back these last few years, simply takes up way too much space for the amount of guests it can accommodate.

    So, the logical course of action is to gut it all out and get some really new, innovative rides in those areas, as well as getting Fantasyland more room to breathe where the old motorboats were. Obviously this would be the time to also address the PeopleMover track, probably by removing it altogether, and of course the monorail would need to be rerouted and given a brand new station. But, in principal, I like it. Be bold, Disney. Time to bite the bullet and retire the Autopia, Submarines and the Carousel of Progress building that has been a thorn in everyone's side for 25 years.
    Last edited by captveg; 06-27-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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    Re: 6/26: Bon Voyage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al
    It seems that anyone who even wanders in to Cars Land, and especially those who ride Radiator Springs Racers, can’t find anything meaningfully wrong with the expansion and would gladly pay money to return in the future.
    Yeah. Too bad over half of them will return, and gladly not pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al
    The other issue nagging both Cars Land and Buena Vista Street is the design of the shop and restaurant entrances. Disney’s new corporate “green standard” is for all shops and restaurants to have doors that automatically close to keep air conditioned air from escaping. The result in Cars Land are stores that simply look closed when the front doors are closed, and after a few days of slow sales the doors are now propped open permanently with the air conditioning on (below left), in defiance of the corporate standard.
    Yeah, sometimes "green standard" gets in the way of the real green.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al
    The second thing that must happen is that Disney and the city of Anaheim have to come up with a comprehensive parking and transportation plan to get people into and out of the Resort District more smoothly. TDA has been able to barely keep their head above water most days when it comes to parking. But the current system is stretched to its limit and made up of stopgap measures, fancy footwork by the operations teams who often squeeze 25,000 or more cars per day into 18,000 spaces, and fraying goodwill with the city of Anaheim.
    Again, the solution is simple: Stop selling (and including) heavily discounting parking with AP's!
    That will raise the number of passengers per vehicle, and no further creating of new problems to fix old ones.
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