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  1. #16

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    My bet is that IASW and POTC were painted a blsck celing due to budget reasons... (it the same way at DL????)

    They could easily paint the celing black and hide it in POTC.... On IASW... you are distracted to look at the animatronics and that brilliant tourturous song... untill some of them are up hanging from the celing.......

    (Perhaos this will be fixed during the current rehab??)

    Love the article and how you explain how MGM was suppost to be, and how it is becomming now.....

  2. #17

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    About Disney-MGM's early days

    Hi everybody. I've never been involved in a message board, so please bear with me while I get used to this stuff. I've been an avid reader of MiceAge (and Al's old DIG and M****Planet stuff) for what seems forever. Like Disneyland, I turn 50 this year and was fortunate to live in Central Florida from '81 to '95, so I was able to see how Disney-MGM and EPCOT (Every Person Comes Out Tired) were modified and tweaked from their opening days.

    The point of this post is that in the early days of Disney-MGM there was a concerted effort (now long gone) to have guests actively participate in the shows. Superstar Television (RIP), Monster Soundshow (format since changed, don't even know if it's still there), the Special Effects portion of the Backstage tour, Indy Stunt Show were in their time immersive (although in a different way) experiences that made that park one of my favorites for years. In addition, in those days, they pioneered the use of "streetmosphere" which added a terrific random-discovery aspect to the park experience that I wish we could have more of in our theme park experiences.

    So, in large part I agree with Kevin's premise (and certainly Pirates, Haunted Mansion, etc. will always be timeless classics), but immersion can come in many different flavors and as long as quality remains at the top of any effort to re-invent a theme park experience I'll be a happy camper.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfully
    I'm curious as to how you gauge the immersion. What makes an attraction immersion or not? How does Tower have it while Rock N Roller Coaster does not?

    You say It's Tough to be a Bug has some of it... why just some?

    You state the Magic Kingdoms have it in most of their rides... does that include all the little dark rides in Fantasyland?
    "Immersion" for me meant that the theming is all-encompassing. If you look in any direction, you feel as if you are in a different place (or time). Rock n Roller definitely doesn't trick me into thinking I'm on the I-5.

    Tough to be a Bug and the Fantasyland rides are actually part of Part II in the series. In short, they meet the Immersion Toward Interesting Illusion criteria, and yet still fall somewhat short for a different reason. One I don't want to elucidate just yet
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver
    What about Small World. How is it immersive? What is it immersive of?

    You can ride Small World and still see black ceiling tiles and speakers everywhere.
    Small World is not, in fact, immersive. It's an obvious show and requires more suspension than normal of your disbelief. Frankly, it's a victim of budgeting. Walt wanted cheap shows to add quickly from the 1964 World's Fair, so this one never had the all-around-you feel of POTC.
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thriller
    A Space Shot style ride ( Maliboomer ) did not even exist in those days. So it's really a modern-day version of pasttime parks...not a replica of a 1920's seaside park.
    It took me WEEKS to realize that the space shot was themed to look like one of those sledgehammer games on the midway, and the cars zooming up it were the things you "hit" to try to ring the bell. What can I say, I'm dense sometimes. Once I finally rode it, though, the sound effects made it pretty obvious.
    Kevin Yee
    MiceAge Columnist

    I am the author of several Disney books:
    Jason's Disneyland Almanac - a daily history of Disneyland
    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee
    "Immersion" for me meant that the theming is all-encompassing. If you look in any direction, you feel as if you are in a different place (or time). Rock n Roller definitely doesn't trick me into thinking I'm on the I-5.

    Tough to be a Bug and the Fantasyland rides are actually part of Part II in the series. In short, they meet the Immersion Toward Interesting Illusion criteria, and yet still fall somewhat short for a different reason. One I don't want to elucidate just yet
    OK... I think I see what you're saying... I can't wait till Part Deux! :-)

  7. #22

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    I've always felt that "studio" style parks were not a good idea base for a theme park. The whole premise of a studio park is to tell a story of how the magic of the big screen is created. While it may hold some interest for most people on a certain level, all it really is doing is taking you out of the "story" and showing you it's all fake. It seems to be a trade off of added thrill in exchange for less story and magic. Not that thrill is a bad thing because TOT has thrill, story and immersion.

  8. #23

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    The Immersion of the Indiana Jones Adventure

    I think it's important to note a ride not mentioned in the article, but which could be the only other E-Ticket to rival Tower in immersion, and that is the Indiana Jones Adventure. The theming, the story, the ride experience - it has it all.

    Indy also emphasizes that which DCA's Tower is lacking, and key to the concept of immersion, and that is the elaborate queue that does so much to establish the world you are entering. To get to the actual ride on Indy, you really feel like you are moving deeper and deeper into the temple. Not only does this build the anticipation, but it gives the ride an epic quality. A grand scale.

    With DCA's Tower, for such a monumental building - colossal in size, you never really feel like you are experiencing this scale when you go on the ride. A mostly outdoor queue then you're in the lobby, then the pre-show room, then the boiler room, then the elevator. What if on Indy, you had the outdoor queue, then you entered the Temple and immediately onto your troop transport? The experience would be vastly different.

    Conversely, if on DCA's Tower, you had a queue that journeyed through the hotel - into creepy, narrow hallways, strange ballrooms, etc. The build-up and anticipation and scale would drastically improve your experience once you got on the ride, thereby increasing your feeling of immersion.

  9. #24

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    illusion is totally based upon perception though. i mean, don't get me wrong, my favorite disney rides take me to another place. but disney/mgm "studios" is supposed to be about exposing the illusion through illusion (if that makes ANY sense). people are facsinated with hollywood. most of the world don't have movie studios in their backyard like us in los angeles. people want to see a movie studio, and that's where the illusion is. it's being "on set". and if you look at it like that, then there is immersion into illusion. when i watch special features on a dvd, and find out how they did what they did, it doesn't make the movie any less enjoyable or magical because i know how they did it.

    only at disney can you experience an indiana jones adventure....but only at disney can you be on set at a (mock)indiana jones movie. i think there are different levels to the illusion. and i don't think it has to be 100% fantasy all the time in order to be enjoyable or "disney".

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee
    It took me WEEKS to realize that the space shot was themed to look like one of those sledgehammer games on the midway, and the cars zooming up it were the things you "hit" to try to ring the bell. What can I say, I'm dense sometimes. Once I finally rode it, though, the sound effects made it pretty obvious.
    Oh, so THAT is what it's supposed to be. Geesh. Well,...no, just "geesh", there's nothing more to say about this.

    Jaybee, I understand what you mean, even htough I really liked my day at the MGM Studios. Maybe a movie-based park would work better if you can "ride the movies" ( a catch phrase from Universal? ), instead of going behind-the-scenes.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy
    I think it's important to note a ride not mentioned in the article, but which could be the only other E-Ticket to rival Tower in immersion, and that is the Indiana Jones Adventure. The theming, the story, the ride experience - it has it all.
    Well, maybe not as well-known by most Americans, Paris' Space Mountain should also be on this list in my honest opinion. That is, the "original", I don't really trust this Mission 2 redo. But the original had it all...it really was an atmosphere of "the future as seen 100 years ago".

    *crawls away in a quiet corner dreaming about times past at Disneyland*

  12. #27

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    Creating an attraction for a specific purpose, like to deliver a message or show how something is done is not as repeatable as an attraction with a purpose of being an interesting and elaborate illusion.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by junglecruiser
    Creating an attraction for a specific purpose, like to deliver a message or show how something is done is not as repeatable as an attraction with a purpose of being an interesting and elaborate illusion.
    No, you're right. I'm not sure anyone on here is familiar with De Efteling in Holland. They have Panadream, a 4D show on nature. It was sponsored by the WWF, and it has a very heavy "man kills nature" feel to it. Not something you want to be educated about at a themepark, even though it's a very important issue.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by junglecruiser
    Creating an attraction for a specific purpose, like to deliver a message or show how something is done is not as repeatable as an attraction with a purpose of being an interesting and elaborate illusion.
    I agree. But then again why do people go on these types of rides/shows time and time again? I know everytime i go to UHS, i ride the backstage tram tour.

  15. #30

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    Well let me first say, I like how you slipped in a comment about DAK. I still feel that these attacks on DAK are futile, but that is another discussion.

    I do like parts of the article, mostly 95% of the whole thing. I probably have a reason as to why ToT isn't so "behind the scenes". Well, MGM-Studios is a representation of Hollywood. We are to believe, at times, that this is Hollywood. Or at least a by-product of it. Hence the ToT. I think it doesn't have the same magic as The Magic Kingdom attractions because it still fails in comparision to some of the more "classic" rides. (Hold on, I gotta slow down, I'm getting ahead of myself)

    What I think I am trying to say is that while yes ToT does do this Tower Immersion power word that you have created, it still wants (or at least what WDI is wanted) us to feel like we're in the center of hollywood. Not partically "backstage" and "behind-the-scenes", but to me, it feels like it's not making much of an attempt at trying to be opposite.

    I'm going to stop now, as I have lost the thought of the point I was trying to make, but will continue when it comes back to me.

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