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  1. #1

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    Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    I’m replying in this new thread so that the Mermaid on Pirates Thread can either get back on topic or just die out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seawolf View Post
    Now we are just making excuses, the wheels are not going to come off lol. The axel assembly on Big Thunder came loose for four reasons, one was because it only featured 2 bolts on each side, the attraction moves at a high velocity, there was extreme maintenance negligence, and CM's were not trained properly. Those factors are not involved on this slow moving attraction which has multiple bolts holding the tire on, a similar design to our cars.
    Poor maintenance, negligence, and undertrained workers can occur on any ride. I bet if you ask they guy that got crushed on Big Thunder before the train came apart he would say that it couldn’t happen on that ride either.

    You had stated that there was no way that the car could become immobilized. The wheel coming off is just an example. I’m sure there are numerous other ways that it could happen. The point is that if the car is immobile, the people would have to be evaced from the vine. If that was the case, then before the safety railing, it would have been extremely dangerous.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Well said!
    BGood! It's not just my motto its my name!

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Frankly, the other guys story of a cast member tripping and falling during an evac post railings being installed and that she fell onto a platform, and not 15 feet below was more then enough for me to think OSHA made the right call. Hopefully Disney can pretty it up soon, as it was done fast.

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by noleafclover1980 View Post
    Frankly, the other guys story of a cast member tripping and falling during an evac post railings being installed and that she fell onto a platform, and not 15 feet below was more then enough for me to think OSHA made the right call. Hopefully Disney can pretty it up soon, as it was done fast.
    Exactly! That was probably the best evidence of why this was not an outlandish request for ride modification in the name of safety.

    I just wish that people would realize that OSHA was only enforcing a rule. It was Disney that decided what those modifications would look like.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    I fail to see how texting while driving relates to making the theme park experience safe for patrons.
    You're the one that brought up forcing motorcycle drivers being forced to wear helmets, which is apples and oranges.

    Anyway, the texting example was about how we keep limiting things in the name of safety, only it doesn't make anything safer. My point is that OSHA will keep regulating more and more, but at what cost? How much less will we get out of our trips to Disneyland, and how much more will it cost us to go when they keep having to retrofit rides, and how much more safety are we REALLY getting? That's the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    I’m replying in this new thread so that the Mermaid on Pirates Thread can either get back on topic or just die out.

    Poor maintenance, negligence, and undertrained workers can occur on any ride. I bet if you ask they guy that got crushed on Big Thunder before the train came apart he would say that it couldn’t happen on that ride either.

    You had stated that there was no way that the car could become immobilized. The wheel coming off is just an example. I’m sure there are numerous other ways that it could happen. The point is that if the car is immobile, the people would have to be evaced from the vine. If that was the case, then before the safety railing, it would have been extremely dangerous.
    Here's the thing: is anything that happened on Big Thunder Ranch something that could have been prevented by OSHA? No. It was human failure--maintenance crews missed putting everything to spec.

    But who had the bigger incentive to change and make the ride safer, OSHA or Disney? Disney, of course, and I bet that that ride is safer now than it has ever been precisely because someone died. But OSHA could have never prevented that, and fines wouldn't have made that ride as safe as it is today. It's unfortunate that someone died, but we can't protect everybody 100%, and we all take inherent risk going on those rides. But I feel more safe because of Disney's incentive not to kill me, not because some government agency is out there handing out fines and making rules.

    It's tough to find info, but it looks as if the Columbia incident was something fined by OSHA under the general duty clause--what happened was something so obvious that Disney should have known, except that it was so obvious that OSHA didn't even have a rule on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Exactly! That was probably the best evidence of why this was not an outlandish request for ride modification in the name of safety.

    I just wish that people would realize that OSHA was only enforcing a rule. It was Disney that decided what those modifications would look like.
    It's not evidence; it's an anecdote. I'm not saying the person is lying, I'm just saying it's not evidence of anything.

    We both want the same thing--safe rides. I just think that OSHA is something that in many was can do more harm than good, and I think that Disney has more incentive to make their rides safe by not killing people than by avoiding fines.

    We could try and make everything 100% safe, but we couldn't, and we shouldn't. It seems like a waste of time and resources to me to make Disney change a ride that hasn't hurt or killed anyone in 53 years. People are much more likely to die in their car on the way to Disneyland than they are on Alice. Should we be outlawing driving to Disneyland?
    Last edited by loungefly97; 11-18-2011 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    omg ride safety and threads.. things that do not go together in the same sentence

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    You're the one that brought up forcing motorcycle drivers being forced to wear helmets, which is apples and oranges.
    No, helmet laws were safety regulations that came about after people had been riding motorcycles for decades. The same thing with the changes to Alice. The ride had been opened for decades. Apples to apples.
    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Anyway, the texting example was about how we keep limiting things in the name of safety, only it doesn't make anything safer. My point is that OSHA will keep regulating more and more, but at what cost? How much less will we get out of our trips to Disneyland, and how much more will it cost us to go when they keep having to retrofit rides, and how much more safety are we REALLY getting? That's the point.
    So you feel it is ok to text and drive? There are statistics proving that driving with distraction is dangerous. How anyone in this day and age can say otherwise is a mystery.
    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Here's the thing: is anything that happened on Big Thunder Ranch something that could have been prevented by OSHA? No. It was human failure--maintenance crews missed putting everything to spec.
    Actually, OSHA could have come out with more stringent regulations about the frequency of maintenance inspections. If that happened, there would have been more of a chance that the malfunctioning axel could have been caught.
    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    But who had the bigger incentive to change and make the ride safer, OSHA or Disney? Disney, of course, and I bet that that ride is safer now than it has ever been precisely because someone died. But OSHA could have never prevented that, and fines wouldn't have made that ride as safe as it is today. It's unfortunate that someone died, but we can't protect everybody 100%, and we all take inherent risk going on those rides. But I feel more safe because of Disney's incentive not to kill me, not because some government agency is out there handing out fines and making rules.

    It's tough to find info, but it looks as if the Columbia incident was something fined by OSHA under the general duty clause--what happened was something so obvious that Disney should have known, except that it was so obvious that OSHA didn't even have a rule on it.
    So it is your feeling that someone has to die before making a ride safer? Wouldn’t it be more prudent to try to make the death preventable by adding safety features to the ride to try to prevent foreseeable injuries?
    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    It's not evidence; it's an anecdote. I'm not saying the person is lying, I'm just saying it's not evidence of anything.
    Actually, it is evidence. Not all evidence is physical. This would count as testimonial evidence. If this was something we arguing in open court instead of on a web forum, I would have the cast member who tripped on the stand and then would have record testimony in evidence of what happened and how the railing and extended platform prevented a fall to the ground below the vine,
    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    We both want the same thing--safe rides. I just think that OSHA is something that in many was can do more harm than good, and I think that Disney has more incentive to make their rides safe by not killing people than by avoiding fines.
    The OSHA regulations do just that. They prevent rides from killing people as well as helping theme parks avoid fines by complying with said regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    We could try and make everything 100% safe, but we couldn't, and we shouldn't. It seems like a waste of time and resources to me to make Disney change a ride that hasn't hurt or killed anyone in 53 years. People are much more likely to die in their car on the way to Disneyland than they are on Alice. Should we be outlawing driving to Disneyland?
    Again, just because nothing has happened in 53 years does not mean that it can’t happen. I cited several rides as examples that had been opened for decades without incident. It only takes one thing to go wrong before someone is injured. Wouldn’t it be better to try to prevent that from happening if possible?
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    I must have missed the texting while driving thing in the other thread, but even comparing that to motorcycle helmet laws is using ab ad comparison. Yes, helmet laws ARE to force you to be safer, fine, you wanna risk splattering your brains all over the concrete, go be an idiot. Texting laws aren't there to protect you, they're in place to protect everyone else on the road because you're looking at your cell phone and not the kid crossing the street.

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by noleafclover1980 View Post
    I must have missed the texting while driving thing in the other thread, but even comparing that to motorcycle helmet laws is using ab ad comparison. Yes, helmet laws ARE to force you to be safer, fine, you wanna risk splattering your brains all over the concrete, go be an idiot. Texting laws aren't there to protect you, they're in place to protect everyone else on the road because you're looking at your cell phone and not the kid crossing the street.
    I think the texting and helmet laws come in because they are also examples of modifying existing things in the name of safety. Those laws are modifying behavior, while in the case of Alice it is modifying the physical aesthetics.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Actually, it is evidence. Not all evidence is physical. This would count as testimonial evidence. If this was something we arguing in open court instead of on a web forum, I would have the cast member who tripped on the stand and then would have record testimony in evidence of what happened and how the railing and extended platform prevented a fall to the ground below the vine,

    The OSHA regulations do just that. They prevent rides from killing people as well as helping theme parks avoid fines by complying with said regulations.

    Again, just because nothing has happened in 53 years does not mean that it can’t happen. I cited several rides as examples that had been opened for decades without incident. It only takes one thing to go wrong before someone is injured. Wouldn’t it be better to try to prevent that from happening if possible?
    Good post -- very well argued!

    Meaning no slight to the motives of the other side, it is astonishing how the anti-OSHA arguments in these threads mirror the anti-safety regulation arguments of the automobile industry in the 1960s and 70s. Minimizing safety issues, appealing to the sanctity of freedom of choice for individuals and businesses, accusing government regulators of boundary-overstepping, power mongering and corruption -- the same arguments that were used by the auto industry a half century ago are in these threads, in virtually identical form.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 11-18-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Disneyland is probably one of the safest parks in the world but accidents happen. Of course that's not counting the idiots standing up in the Matterhorn or the guy who got squished by a Monorail.

    For the safety freaks: what do you want DL management to do? Destroy everything and rebuild everything with cushions all over the place? An establishment can only be so safe. Accidents happen. Espacially in place where millions of people go.
    Last edited by Twist1234; 11-18-2011 at 05:00 PM.

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Twist1234 View Post
    For the safety freaks: what do you want DL management to do?
    Follow the law, same as everyone else. Simple.

    And for those who like to blow off theme park safety regulations with "accidents happen," it's obvious you haven't done your homework: it was the blatant disregard for safety on the part of Disney and others in the amusement park industry in past decades that brought death, injury, and the public outrage that resulted in Cal-OSHA's current regulations.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Twist1234 View Post
    Disneyland is probably one of the safest parks in the world but accidents happen. Of course that's not counting the idiots standing up in the Matterhorn or the guy who got squished by a Monorail.

    For the safety freaks: what do you want DL management to do? Destroy everything and rebuild everything with cushions all over the place? An establishment can only be so safe. Accidents happen. Espacially in place where millions of people go.
    I think lost in this is the fact that OSHA isn't doing this to protect YOU, the guest, it's to protect the EMPLOYEES and making sure they have as safe of a work environment as possible. Yes, millions of people visit every year, but the cast members are there every day. While a ride breakdown and evac is fun and games for some on here... I still don't get why people hope they get to do that, it's something that happens to the average guest what, once or twice a year? Guess who gets to do the evacs god knows how many times a year, or go out on the Alice track for cleaning, maintenance, etc.? The cast members. The safety regulations are for their benefit, as they do things that make the most of them on a far more regular basis then you. If a person would rather the cast members work in a less safe environment, for the purely selfish reason of "I hate how the rails look", you need to check your priorities.

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    True.

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    Re: Ride Safety Blah, Blah, Blah Doesn’t Belong in The Mermaid on Pirates Thread

    I agree and it's kind of like saying airplanes wont crash anymore because they (engineers) have thought of everything.

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