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  1. #1

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    Sad In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    .....an open letter to Al


    Dear Al,



    I read your recent article and like some others, I am disappointed that you choose to insult your readers and then in the same article, solicit donations from them.

    I cannot understand your statement:

    “But that's what Walt Disney World visitors get (and frankly, deserve). I'm sure their most rabid fans will defend this lower quality effort like crazy as they have other such decisions in the past.”

    Let’s talk about that Rabid fan base for WDW you have referred too but sans the west vs. east mind set. May I suggest we are the same, Disney Fans! East coast or West, it doesn't matter!

    If we are holding an annual pass to one or both of the coasts, we are the truest of Disney Fans, who come to Disney on every such occasion that we can. Miceage/Micechat is collection of these true lovers of Disney and it is wrong of you, on so many levels, to insult your readers. It matters not where they live and post from, as they are just like you Al, huge fans of Disney. But unlike you Al, those on the east side they are not part of a group that is large enough to actually be influential on Disney. “Rally the troops on the east coast” you and some other might think, “just like we did on the west”

    If only it were that simple.

    Disneyland, sits in a metropolitan area with a population of almost 18 million. You say DL has over 1 million annual pass holders….. well WDW sits a much smaller population center of under 3 million. It would take the entire state of Florida to reach the population level the LA metropolitan areas.

    Vote with your Wallet some have said in your defense. Shameful defense really. Did all the DL annual pass holders do so in DL’s decade of decline prior to 2005? Clearly not! Some maybe, but the majority did not.

    It is regrettable to suggest a WDW annual pass holder do the same or be label as blindly supporting lower quality standards by WDW. They, just like a DL pass holder, go for the love of Disney and care for it.

    This is not a matter of voting with the wallet.

    This is not a matter of blindly accepting the status quo of WDW.

    This is certainly not a matter of Defending WDW.

    Kevin Yee’s Walt Disney World Weekly, a group I am a proud member of… and let me share with you this group is nit picky! Are these the very same visitors on the east coast whom deserve lesser quality? Perhaps is the ones that have mounted a recent writing campaigns to Bog Iger about the closure of Pleasure Island and more specifically the Adventures Club. Are they deserving of lesser? How about the Park Hopper team. Do they deserve lesser quality? How about the very same group of people to post on your site weekly about the troubles with Splash Mountain, what do they deserve exactly? Should they be lumped in with those who loudly protested the overly girl centric origin plans of expanded Fantasyland? And what shall we do with those who posted the video of Splash Mountain in shocking disrepair for all to see on Youtube. Your comment does not seem to validate their efforts nor does it seem to exclude them as not the fans you are referring to.

    I don't know where your comment comes from Al, because when I read your web site, I DO NOT See your east coast readers blindly accepting of all things WDW. Far from it.

    Some will approve, some will disapprove but WHERE is the rabid fan defense of:

    Avatarland
    Avengerail
    New Monorail Spiel.
    Haunted Mansion Que.
    The Merits of the Test Track redo.
    Fixing DHS.
    Fixing the Yeti.
    The closure of Pleasure Island.
    New Fantasyland

    Some may approve of some of the above, but NONE are holding hands singing Kumbaya and just blindly loving whatever Meg and company put on the plate! I resent that you not only ignored this, you belittle whatever efforts this small group can make.

    You see Al, like many of them, not only do I love them both, I go to both. Next trip to DL is may 13-15. Yes, this May. Like most, I think Disneyland is superior park to WDW’s MK in ALOT more ways than not. Unlike you I don’t think the fan base at WDW blindly accepts the status quo. And I certainly would not be willing to accept their money, much less solicite it, if I thought they were deserving of a lesser Disney.

    You seemingly dismiss that fact that unlike DL, the DISNEY FANBASE is NOT so influential at WDW because ....

    THEY ARE A MUCH SMALLER PART OF THE WALT DISNEY WORLD ANNUAL ATTENDANCE.



    We need your support and help not your insults and labels as rabid fans who will defend lower quality. Thanks but no thanks. I do not accept WDW current state at face value, and just the same, I will not accept your statement as "ok" or "Justifiable." Your article was pretty much spot on until you had to ruin it with a two sentences of needless attack of Disney Fans who patronize your web site.

    Like WDW management, you will likely find no fault in your actions, take no responsibility for alienating your fan base, and largely ingore that this even occurred.

    That said, I invite you to revisit your statement and perhaps retract them.

  2. #2

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Is this serious, I think this should be part of the WDW thread not the DL thread
    <font size=4> </font>

  3. #3

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Yes, this belongs in the WDW forum. But, to the OP, if you seek an objective discussion regarding WDW, you're going to have to go to another website.
    "The greatest expression of rebellion is joy." - Joss Whedon

  4. #4

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    I must ask users to please re-read his statement more in-depth and think carefully about the motivation behind it. This was not directed at all WDW users, only those who defend Disney's actions at every turn; it would be ludicrous of him to do otherwise. If you are not one of those individuals, the comment was not directed at you. The whole point of the statement was to stir up some passion in WDW users to help the parks, similar to how he did with Disneyland in the 90's. I'm quite frankly astounded and disappointed at the number of users who are so easily upset by an article.
    Last edited by Seawolf; 04-24-2012 at 11:55 PM.

  5. #5

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    I guess I see and hear so many jabs and insults coming from WDW fans to DLR fans that I just can't get worked up about it in either direction. *shrug*

  6. #6

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelbyH View Post
    I guess I see and hear so many jabs and insults coming from WDW fans to DLR fans that I just can't get worked up about it in either direction. *shrug*
    Yeah...I actually kinda see more WDW fans bash DLR whenever there is comparisons on other sites, however it can't be helped I guess.

  7. #7

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelbyH View Post
    I guess I see and hear so many jabs and insults coming from WDW fans to DLR fans that I just can't get worked up about it in either direction. *shrug*
    You think it's bad with the fans, you should try visiting WDW as a Disneyland Cast Member!

    When we use our Disneyland ID for entry or discounts, or self-identify in friendly conversation as fellow Cast Members from California, the WDW Cast Members can say some of the most idiotic and patently rude and offensive comments you've ever heard! It's almost like they are trying to verbally abuse us for some perverse joy.

    A few of my favorite comments from WDW CM's that left us (a group of Disneyland Attractions CM's) staring with our mouths open in disbelief...

    "Oh, so you came out to Florida to see how to run a real theme park, huh?"
    "You guys must be pretty freaked out by a well-run theme park, right?"
    "Oh yeah, Disneyland, the little experiment Walt had before he got it right in Florida."

    There were others, but those are some of the most pointed and memorable. There was also one CM who mentioned very grotesquely the deaths at both Big Thunder and Sailing Ship Columbia and then reminded us no one had died at WDW (this was a trip before their monorail accident), but it was so disgusting I won't repeat it's context or wording here. This middle-aged CM at DHS who said it obviously had a very loose understanding of how to interact with people in public, but the damage was done.

    These comments from WDW CM's are/were usually followed by a chuckle and then a stare, waiting for us to respond. Or they sometimes were followed up with bizarre untruths about how Walt walked through Magic Kingdom Park on opening day in '71, or some other bizarre claim of Walt being involved in WDW years after his actual death. I wish I could say that we responded with really witty, sharp retorts, but we didn't. We were all raised so well by our parents that I think our polite instincts kicked in before we could try and get into some weird argument with the waiter/hostess/shop clerk about theme park envy. We generally responded to the blatant rudeness with tight smiles or a nervous laugh and a "Yup!" and we tried to move on.

    WDW CM's can be downright brutal and mean, and most of them have never left the state of Florida or the Eastern Time Zone and don't even know what they are talking about. They're just repeating stuff they heard in the break room.

    That a gaggle of WDW fans got their feathers so ruffled over a blogger comment is bizarre to me. And honestly, the hatred and uninformed bigotry towards Disneyland has been coming from Florida for so long, part of me thinks it's just shocking to them that someone is calling them out for the gross mismanagement and mishandling of the Disney property out there. Al Lutz is finally announcing that the Florida Emporer has no clothes, and it just shocks them.
    Last edited by Westsider; 04-25-2012 at 01:24 AM.

  8. #8

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    ^It's like East vs. West coast all over again.
    Disney parks are operated by a bunch of gang members lol.

  9. #9

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    @ Mr.toad. your probably right, but as this has turned into another east vs west, I thought it ok to post in the forum I felt AL and his defenders were most likely to read.

    @ Westsider, Sorry you experienced rude castmembers at WDW. Those statement are just silly and non sense. I DO typically find DL CMs to be superior to that WDW's in courtesy and general guest services. But you paint a picture at all WDW castmember have superiority complexes about WDW. In my experience, its the exact opposite. While some do most understand and are even jealous of the smaller west coast sister property and its better versions of like attractions. Al's comment was not an attack on the management, if it was I would be in complete agreement. I was attack on me, the visitor, who ironically agrees with Al the WDW is being sorely miss managed. Which was Sea Wolf's point.....

    @ sea wolf. Thank you. A well thought response. I have reread. But I also have gone diving into the WDW forums on this site. I cannot find just who Al was referring too. There is NOT a significant population defending WDW blindly. Period. Since I can't find that population of users to defend everything, I read Al's comment at face value because it feel like he is speaking to and about the visitors who frequent WDW. How dare they support it.

    Clearly many have the same perception of that comment and have responded as such. I completely agree that WDW manager is lack luster. But I cannot agree about the statement regarding its visitors.

    At best Al misfired a thought and didn't mean it in the way that a lot of his readers took the comment to mean. Again I would welcome a clearification on that. I would not be so bold as to demand an apology, this is a forum of free thoughts afterall, but a clearification would be nice.

    At worst it is exactly the offense he intended as is.

    Either way, it is wrong.

  10. #10

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    @ Westsider.

    LOL those comments are just so horribly stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if alot of those CMs were College Program people since they're a cheaper workforce to pay and make work. Having been in the CP myself, you would be amazed at how many of those people aren't really Disney fans or experts by any means. My first roommates when I was there made me question this greatly. It's unfortunate how correct you are about some WDW CMs. But I say unless you've been backstage and dealt with character performers in-between performances you haven't seen the worst of it like I did.

  11. #11

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Quote Originally Posted by BlAcKoUt510 View Post
    ^It's like East vs. West coast all over again.
    Disney parks are operated by a bunch of gang members lol.
    Lol


    It's a music Celebration
    Come on, come on, come on
    Strike up the band,
    Feel the beat, what a great sensation
    Come on, come on, come on
    Move and clap your hands,
    Get into the Spirit
    Let everyone hear it,
    So come on, come on

  12. #12

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    This is very much a Disneyland website and message board. Unless it is big news or travel planning, most Walt Disney World threads are days to weeks behind on news that is coming from other websites. I think it is an accurate description of far too many people. Storybook Circus is celebrated as a marvel of themed design and The Wizarding World of Harry Potter is not that great simply because it is at Universal Orlando Resort. While not representative of everybody, I even saw one poster recently complain about Test Track's closure because it would not just be closed, but changed, proclaiming to like that Walt Disney World is the same each visit and does not change. There was also just recently a good sized response to te return of the Orange Bird on signage and merchandise, many of whom were not even alive when the character was last used.

    The Disney fan community is larger than this one website and plenty of people who do not post on MiceChat read Lutz's articles. I can see how a change of tone may help, as some do react more to his comments about the fans more than his information regarding what he sees as deficiencies at Walt Disney World. On the flip side, I recall similar reactions that "Al just hates Walt Disney World" before he really started taking jabs at fans.

  13. #13

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    Red Face Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Quote Originally Posted by Kidgenie View Post
    .....an open letter to Al.

    Thank You.





    As some have said, perhaps Al did not mean it as an insult, and was merely trying to rally the troops. I truly hope this is the case. I understand that many of you feel that we overreacted. Please understand that many of us care deeply about the state of WDW, and too often we feel as though we are screaming at a brick wall. Frankly those couple of sentences hit a nerve for those of us who have been fighting and seemingly getting nowhere. We deserve more.


    And a small not to all of you west coasters (I certainly don't speak for the whole WDW fan base, but I know many of us feel this way):

    I too am part of a number of (very Small) WDW groups. We all have certain things in common. We look to the West coast in awe and respect. That is Walt's park, He walked those streets......he planned a lot of it! Disneyland is where it all started. We hear stories about how much nicer DL is, how much friendlier the cast members are, and how much love and upkeep it seems to get. Many of us will always be WDWers. It's our home park and we love it, but we will always longingly look to the west coast with a certain amount of jealously. Perhaps this is why many WDWers will defend our world so quickly. WDW has a lot to offer and a lot it does actually do right (although this is no excuse for what it does wrong), but it is always treated as second class to its older sister in California. If you think WDW needs help (as I do) please help us. I have taken an active part in many Disneyland letter writing campaigns despite having never been able to visit DLR, because at the end of the day WDW bears the name of the same man responsible for DL. We are in this together.

  14. #14

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    What Al was trying to say is that when Disneyland was run poorly (upkeep, budget and safety issues) the Disneyland fans were vocal about how upset they were, and Disney fixed the issues. The park has never looked better. As a result, they have regularly been breaking attendance records since the 50th.

    However, at Disney World, mank of the fans are actually defending poor management decisions. And the higher ups in the company are using those comments to defend the poor upkeep and cutbacks.

    Essentially, you only get what you fight for. Sometimes when you love something you have to fight for it, rather than just make apologies for it. If you love a drug user, do you just hope that things get better and make apologies and excuses for them, or do you fight the hard fight to help them get better?

    Al wants the WDW fans to have the same quality parks as Disneyland. But that means they are going to have to start standing up against WDW managements bad decisions and praise only the truly good stuff. if you look at a lot of the WDW blogs out there, you'll see that they praise everything and rarely have negative comments. They want access for themselves with Disney more than they want higher quality parks for the guests. And even many of the regular fans will attack those who make any negative comment about Disney World, no matter how right the point is.

    None of us think that Disney World is terrible. But we've seen big cuts and even some safety issues. That would never slide at Disneyland. And if WDW fans can learn to stand up for quality, it doest have to be that way at WDW either.

    You get the parks you fight for! That's Al's point. And I think he's right about that. If Disney thinks the tourists and fans don't care, then why spend the money to fix things?

    I appreciate this thread and your passion. I just hope that those of you who love WDW most will develop the strength to stand up against Disney when they deserve it, and not attack the folks who do so. Al is fighting for you! He is fighting FOR a better WDW. Please don't mistake his frustration at the apologists as an attack on you personally.
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  15. #15

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    Re: In regard to that "Rabid fan base for WDW"......

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustysage View Post
    What Al was trying to say is that when Disneyland was run poorly (upkeep, budget and safety issues) the Disneyland fans were vocal about how upset they were, and Disney fixed the issues. The park has never looked better. As a result, they have regularly been breaking attendance records since the 50th.

    However, at Disney World, mank of the fans are actually defending poor management decisions. And the higher ups in the company are using those comments to defend the poor upkeep and cutbacks.

    Essentially, you only get what you fight for. Sometimes when you love something you have to fight for it, rather than just make apologies for it. If you love a drug user, do you just hope that things get better and make apologies and excuses for them, or do you fight the hard fight to help them get better?

    Al wants the WDW fans to have the same quality parks as Disneyland. But that means they are going to have to start standing up against WDW managements bad decisions and praise only the truly good stuff. if you look at a lot of the WDW blogs out there, you'll see that they praise everything and rarely have negative comments. They want access for themselves with Disney more than they want higher quality parks for the guests. And even many of the regular fans will attack those who make any negative comment about Disney World, no matter how right the point is.

    None of us think that Disney World is terrible. But we've seen big cuts and even some safety issues. That would never slide at Disneyland. And if WDW fans can learn to stand up for quality, it doest have to be that way at WDW either.

    You get the parks you fight for! That's Al's point. And I think he's right about that. If Disney thinks the tourists and fans don't care, then why spend the money to fix things?

    I appreciate this thread and your passion. I just hope that those of you who love WDW most will develop the strength to stand up against Disney when they deserve it, and not attack the folks who do so. Al is fighting for you! He is fighting FOR a better WDW. Please don't mistake his frustration at the apologists as an attack on you personally.

    Thank You Dusty. As someone who actually (I assume) knows Al, reading this from you is a bit refreshing. Like I said above, I have been trying to make a difference and this article had the dual effect of both making me feel like nothing I've done matters, and making me feel like someone I view as a ally in my battle thought I deserved what I get. I know this is really silly of me (and I should know better), but when nothing you do seems to get Disney to care about WDW, small stuff like this can really send you over the edge. I am sorry if I have taken anything out of context, and I hope that I will continue to have the support of some great voices such as you, Al and Kevin.


    Oh, and if you or Al ever find yourselves out East, I would love to treat you to a meal in my home park. (Although, I live in Virginia and my home park is WDW, so....probably not very practical).

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