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  1. #16

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    You think it’s an awesome idea to exploit people’s likenesses for profit without their consent?
    We went over this in the last thread. Miceage does this exact same thing in its numerous updates from the parks and nobody bats an eye.

  2. #17

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    I know that saying this might make me kind of unpopular with the micechat crowd, but...
    I kinda wanna see that movie...

  3. #18

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    We went over this in the last thread. Miceage does this exact same thing in its numerous updates from the parks and nobody bats an eye.
    There is no relationship between the purpose and use of photos on the Miceage fan site and the images in the film. Photos on Miceage fall under fair use and do not violate Disney's TOS. The commercial film in question is not covered by fair use and blatantly violates Disney's TOS (as well as trespass law).

    Whether or not Disney chooses to pursue it, they have a legitimate grievance -- as do the tourists who appear in the film without their knowledge or consent.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

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  4. #19

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    We went over this in the last thread. Miceage does this exact same thing in its numerous updates from the parks and nobody bats an eye.
    Yes we did. And the distinction was made very clear with posts like the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Photos on the Miceage fan site fall under fair use and do not violate Disney's TOS. The commercial film in question is not covered by fair use and blatantly violates Disney's TOS.

    Whether or not Disney chooses to pursue it, they have a legitimate grievance -- as do the tourists who appear in the film without their knowledge or permission.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  5. #20

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Hmm, that's funny, the guy who made Escape From Tomorrow said that he "didn't have much problem convincing companies that the picture was protected under the Fair Use Doctrine" in a very recent interview.

    Beyond that a writer for the New Yorker agreed with the director earlier this year, saying that "As commentary on the social ideals of Disney World, it seems to clearly fall within a well-recognized category of fair use, and therefore probably will not be stopped by a court using copyright or trademark laws."

    So the question of Fair Use is not as cut-and-dry as you'd both like to claim, and I noticed that neither of you pointed out why one is protected by fair use and the other is not.

  6. #21

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Hmm, that's funny, the guy who made Escape From Tomorrow said that he "didn't have much problem convincing companies that the picture was protected under the Fair Use Doctrine" in a very recent interview.
    The guy who made Escape From Tomorrow is notorious for shoveling so much PR bs that you need hip boots to wade through the interview. He's not a legitimate source for anything, other than the same self-serving charlatanism that motivated him to shoot his film on private property without permission from the owners and without getting clearance from the members of the public who appeared as unknowing extras.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  7. #22

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Did you read the second part of my post? It's not difficult to find people who think that this film is protected by fair use. Here are a few examples of legal commentators who think the film is probably protected. If you have a legal argument for why it is not protected by fair use I would love to hear it.

    Loyola Law School professor Jay Dougherty says shooting the film inside a Disney park isn't necessarily actionable (beyond a possible trespassing claim on violation of park rules), and "fair use" exceptions to copyright law could be a defense for using the characters in a larger narrative. But "Disney could have a stronger case regarding trademark law and trademark dilution," he adds.
    'Escape From Tomorrow': Disney's Non-Strategy Strategy to Combat Unauthorized Disneyland Horror Movie

    At least facially, it would appear that "Escape From Tomorrow" would have a relatively solid fair use defense. However, I would not necessarily consider it bullet-proof.
    Why 'Escape From Tomorrow' Likely Won't Make It To Theaters - Law360

    Because of its clandestine production, the film drew a considerable amount of hype at the 2013 Sundance Film Festival, not the least of which out of fear that it would never secure distribution. But much like the paranoia of lawsuits from Disney proved to be unfounded (fair use protects the filmmakers, who only once directly mention the company), Jim’s frightful journey climaxes in a shallow pool of superficial fears, and the film’s critique of corporate homogeneity is obvious and toothless.
    'Escape From Tomorrow' Review: Backstory of Its Clandestine Disney World Filming Is More Gripping Than the Movie Itself - TheWrap

    I wasn't able to find any articles that explicitly stated that the film was not protected under Fair Use. I get that many of you think the guy did something bad in filming this movie but that's your opinion and it should not be masked under incorrect interpretations of the law.

    The legality doesn't really matter at this point anyway since it's fairly obvious that the movie is coming out (in whatever limited fashion) and that Disney will never acknowledge its existence. I have no doubt that Disney could crush this film legally if they so chose, we're talking about the company that is single-handedly responsible for extending copyright laws over the last several decades.

  8. #23

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Hmm, that's funny, the guy who made Escape From Tomorrow said that he "didn't have much problem convincing companies that the picture was protected under the Fair Use Doctrine" in a very recent interview.

    Beyond that a writer for the New Yorker agreed with the director earlier this year, saying that "As commentary on the social ideals of Disney World, it seems to clearly fall within a well-recognized category of fair use, and therefore probably will not be stopped by a court using copyright or trademark laws."

    So the question of Fair Use is not as cut-and-dry as you'd both like to claim, and I noticed that neither of you pointed out why one is protected by fair use and the other is not.
    I've read articles with legal experts and lawyers going both directions. I would guess the case isn't as simple as some think, and could be a possibility why Disney has not done anything. What happens if they did go after it, get even more publicity, and then lose in court and the movie still ends up showing in theaters.

    I am not a lawyer so I don't know, just going off articles I've read who have interviewed various lawyers and legal experts, some day Disney has a case, some don't and who knows which way it would go in court.

  9. #24

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by moregumboplease View Post
    No it isn't a joke, its actually pretty controversial. It was shot on DLR grounds without permission from DLR.
    I was being sarcastic. I know that it is real, but the way they presented it looks like a joke.




  10. #25

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    I've read articles with legal experts and lawyers going both directions. I would guess the case isn't as simple as some think, and could be a possibility why Disney has not done anything. What happens if they did go after it, get even more publicity, and then lose in court and the movie still ends up showing in theaters.

    I am not a lawyer so I don't know, just going off articles I've read who have interviewed various lawyers and legal experts, some day Disney has a case, some don't and who knows which way it would go in court.
    Like I said, if Disney wanted to shut this down they absolutely could, if only because their legal team would be orders of magnitude larger and better funded than the filmmaker's team. This isn't cut-and-dry at all and I didn't mean to suggest that it was, but since it's a murky legal area that certainly favors Disney because they have literally billions of dollars to throw at lawyers if they want to.

    Still, this movie's going to be in ~50 independent theaters all over the country (check for a full list on their website). I suspect that the amount of money it takes in and the amount of people who eventually see the film are so low as to be inconsequential to Disney. In other words, it probably costs Disney more to mobilize their lawyers than they stand to lose by allowing this film to screen. That plus the Streisand effect, I think, rules the legal question kind of moot since it's fairly obvious Disney is never going to litigate.

  11. #26

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    I am trying to be objective. I haven't seen the movie, only seen interviews, previews, sundance reviews and things I've read online. The only reason why this movie is getting attention is because of the way it's filmed, and if you break it down to JUST that, kudos to the cast and crew. The reality, the plot is terrible... as in terribly written and mostly lacking marit. I think that's why Disney isn't wasting it's time on an independant film.

    Unfortunately, I do think the basic idea "guy gets fired from his job and then has to handle a super happy family vacation at Disney." that's a plot that could have been done quite well. One that many people could relate to; having to smile through adversity. Instead it goes into boarderline pedophelia and from what I understand about midway is basically an acid trip. It's a shame.

    The only reason Disney would take legal action would be to "protect the brand" on a copyright/trademark level, because on any other level, it isn't worth their time or money.

  12. #27

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    The poster even makes it look kind of like a Disney movie, with a white gloved 4-finger hand and Disney script font.
    We will probably watch it when it comes to DVD though, just to see the background shots. Who knows maybe I can say I was in a movie....
    I am sure quite a few die hard Disney fans will see it (especially when it is on dvd) just because they know the history of it.

  13. #28

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Plus, think about this thing in about forty years. Think how mad we all go *now* for in park footage from forty years back. Youtube etc. are still potentially ephemeral - who knows what will happen to the data when the site goes down for good. But this will still be lurking in the margins.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  14. #29

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by MikkiandtheMouse View Post
    ...kudos to the cast and crew. The reality, the plot is terrible... as in terribly written and mostly lacking merit. I think that's why Disney isn't wasting it's time on an independant film.

    The only reason Disney would take legal action would be to "protect the brand" on a copyright/trademark level, because on any other level, it isn't worth their time or money.
    Disney vigorously protects their Intellectual Property. They've sent cease and desist orders to elementary schools that were performing songs or using representations of their character IP in recitals for which no money was collected. This isn't about money. This is about Disney's FIDUCIARY OBLIGATION (to their brand and their shareholders) to protect their intellectual property, which is literally worth billions, from piracy, misappropriation and plunder from criminals like Randy Moore. If they don't protect the IP, it sets PRECEDENT and damages and dilutes their brand.

    There will be legal action on this matter. It is simply a matter of timing and Disney is playing this right. Let Mr. Moore have his limited theatrical and festival circuit run and then crush him.

    Defending against this one film is worth the investment of many millions if it discourages subsequent attacks on their brand and intellectual property.
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  15. #30

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    Re: Escpae from Tomorrow

    Quote Originally Posted by MikkiandtheMouse View Post
    I am trying to be objective. I haven't seen the movie, only seen interviews, previews, sundance reviews and things I've read online. The only reason why this movie is getting attention is because of the way it's filmed, and if you break it down to JUST that, kudos to the cast and crew. The reality, the plot is terrible... as in terribly written and mostly lacking marit. I think that's why Disney isn't wasting it's time on an independant film....
    Not kudos -- more like cabbages, turnips and any other rotten veggies one can throw. The reason Randy Moore is getting groans and eyerolls from other indies isn't the content of his film -- this town delights when potshots are taken at das Maus. The issue is the underhanded way he shot it. His self-serving violation of the unspoken rules of independent filmmaking just makes it tougher for genuine guerrillas to function. Face it, Moore was a decade-long loser who couldn't sell a script in ten years of trying. His answer was to pull off a punking of an easy-to-hate corporation, then play the Noble Artiste role at Sundance to get the wine-and-cheese crowd to notice him. It has nothing to do with his subject matter or whether his film sucks, it's that his methods are fake and sleazy -- notable even in a town full of fakers and sleasemeisters. Really, if this guy's bs was any deeper you'd need scuba gear.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 09-26-2013 at 06:07 PM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


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