Is Freedom Selfish?

[Soulquarian]

Is freedom a basic human right? Is freedom something that all people deserve? Is there any such thing as freedom at all? If you ask to be treated equally, is that a selfish request?

I really enjoy being a member of Micechat. I like discussing things in a civilized manner with so many different people from different types of places.

One thing that makes Micechat a great place to discuss topics is that everyone's opinion is valued equally... Most of the time....

It has come to my attention that there are a few users who can break the rules or bend them as they see fit. We are not supposed to personal attack, yet it happens quite a bit, and often by the same individuals. Members who's opinions may not agree with majority are usually ganged up on and ridiculed by those in a position of power...

In a recent thread (http://www.micechat.com/forums/showt...7&page=1&pp=25 ), we have such an example. You can read for yourself and determine your own opinion...

I think that we should all abide by the rules that Micechat has set forth. That includes the moderators, administrators, and board favorites....

When I stated that all I expected was equality amongst the posters, I was told by mods that Micechat was not a democracy. I was told that no board was equal and as a result this one is no different. I was given excuses as to why some moderators can attack others even though a regular poster could be banned or suspended for the same reasons.

This prompted a discussion regarding freedom. This may have been for the sole purpose of debate, and it was said by a regular member, but I was told that for me to want to be treated equal on the boards was selfish. So what do you think? Micechat has over 2,500 users, but the ones that continually bend or break the rules can be counted on one hand. I was told to leave the community if I didn't like it, but should I have to leave a great board because of less than .003588 of the boards population?

Once again I only ask that everyone be treated equally. Nothing more, nothing less...

What do you think?

[sunnygirl]

I think I adore you and your opinions, SoulQ, but I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole. Thank you and good night.

<bows out>

[Not Afraid]

If you are simmply looking for confirmation of your own beliefs, then good luck to you. However, your argument is cloaked with opinions and not presented neutrally, therefore the poll will be deeply flawed. But, if the exercise will be amusing to the board, then have at it. Just don't have any expectations that anything will change as a result. It may and it may not.

[General You]

Hmmm - your poll and post seem to be driving at two differnt things. Freedom in genreal? or freedom in the context of the boards. If we're talking capital "F" freedom then I'll have to say it has nothing to do at all with selfishness.

Your post, on the other hand seems to be more about equlity and fairness instead of freedom. And I think when you stop and think about it, those desires are certainly selfishly motivated - we want equality, not to benefit society, but rather to ensure we live in a society where we ourselve won't be taken advantage of.

It's the basic social contract whereby we agree to limit the freedoms we'd have in anarchy, so that we can reliable expectations about how we'll be treated. It may not be selfish in the "not sharing your toys" context, but you are certainly calculating your long term gains by putting forward a system that seeks to ensure equality and fairness - why do it or participate, if you have no personal interest?

[Soulquarian]

If you are simmply looking for confirmation of your own beliefs, then good luck to you. However, your argument is cloaked with opinions and not presented neutrally, therefore the poll will be deeply flawed. But, if the exercise will be amusing to the board, then have at it. Just don't have any expectations that anything will change as a result. It may and it may not.

Of course my argument is "cloaked with opinions". What isn't? That's why I posted it. I would like to know other's opinions regarding the matter. The poll represents 3 perspectives. For, Against, and Neither.

[Tui]

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had.
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty ********n' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom.
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pussy
'Cause the only reason that you're here.
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a have to hook'in fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five

[Soulquarian]

Hmmm - your poll and post seem to be driving at two differnt things. Freedom in genreal? or freedom in the context of the boards. If we're talking capital "F" freedom then I'll have to say it has nothing to do at all with selfishness.

Your post, on the other hand seems to be more about equlity and fairness instead of freedom. And I think when you stop and think about it, those desires are certainly selfishly motivated - we want equality, not to benefit society, but rather to ensure we live in a society where we ourselve won't be taken advantage of.

It's the basic social contract whereby we agree to limit the freedoms we'd have in anarchy, so that we can reliable expectations about how we'll be treated. It may not be selfish in the "not sharing your toys" context, but you are certainly calculating your long term gains by putting forward a system that seeks to ensure equality and fairness - why do it or participate, if you have no personal interest?

A great point GY...

I believe that the pursuit of fairness is not a selfish one. Selfishness is defined as the following according to Dictionary.com "Concerned chiefly or only with oneself."

Under that definition, the pursuit of fairness is not selfish because you want it to applied to EVERYONE and not just yourself...

Freedom however could be argued both ways, and I aplogize for not being more clear on my stance or the context. Freedom is largely an "I" situation. Freedom seems to be the pursuit of having the ability to do whatever YOU want. So I can see your point. How do you feel about fairness though?

[General You]

Under that definition, the pursuit of fairness is not selfish because you want it to applied to EVERYONE and not just yourself...

Yes, but in the same way I could say I want everyone to give me $10 is not selfish, because it concerns everyone.

If fairness didn't ultimatly benefit you, I doubt you would argue for it.

[Soulquarian]

Yes, but in the same way I could say I want everyone to give me $10 is not selfish, because it concerns everyone.

If fairness didn't ultimatly benefit you, I doubt you would argue for it.

But if the benefit is mutual and the same for everyone involved, can that be considered selfish?

Fairness means that everyone involved gets an equal portion. No one gets hosed, no one gets more than the other. The same, which is unselfish.

[General You]

But if the benefit is mutual and the same for everyone involved, can that be considered selfish?

How does it benefit the person of power and privilage? Don't they have to give something up? Perhaps giving all your possessions away to people who have none, would be more fair - but would you agree to do that?

Equality plays differently between the Haves and Have Nots.

Of couse equality is in the best interest of the Have Nots, they have nothing to loose and everything to gain.

For the Haves though, they are being asked to give up their privillage or power. Why should they give up what they earned, aquired, or inherited?
.

[Soulquarian]

How does it benefit the person of power and privilage? Don't they have to give something up? Perhaps giving all your possessions away to people who have none, would be more fair - but would you agree to do that?

Equality plays differently between the Haves and Have Nots.

Of couse equality is in the best interest of the Have Nots, they have nothing to loose and everything to gain.

For the Haves though, they are being asked to give up their privillage or power. Why should they give up what they earned, aquired, or inherited?
.

A valid response in reference to the world...

But what about Micechat? Does that same theory apply here as well?

[Tui]

*walks in with popcorn and sits*

ugh, this is even less entertaining than The Longest Yard.

*walks out*

[General You]

A valid response in reference to the world...

But what about Micechat? Does that same theory apply here as well?

Sure, why should the folks who paid for, created, and maintain MiceChat give up their power and authority to run it at their whim?

If they are here to have fun with a group of like minded people, why should they be concerned about equality, especially if it involves giving leeway to someone that annoys them? It's their party, I thinkk they can throw out any guest that shows up who they don't like, much as business reseve the right to refuse service.

And if they are not the final arbitrators on how things are run - why should they bother setting up the place in to begin with. ADD still exists, still is unmoderated, and is as completely free and equal as possible - in the context of a message board anyway.

Their decissions craft the kind of place this is. I don't have any problem of a benevolent dictatorship of this sort, as I always retain the freedom to leave it, should it no longer serve my interests.

[General You]

*walks in with popcorn and sits*

ugh, this is even less entertaining than The Longest Yard.

*walks out*

Heh, best get back to your rainbow party

[Tui]

Heh, best get back to your rainbow party

You read my mind friend, you read my mind.