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  1. #1

    • Minion
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    The Black Cauldron

    In the early '90s I did work at Disney Studios and frequently met with managers in the animation division. I asked a few times about the release of The Black Cauldron to video and was told it was probably a title that would never be seen again.

    I had seen the film in its original theatrical release and believe it was shown in 70mm in selected theaters (Sleeping Beauty was the only other 70mm animated film they produced). I'm also apparently one of the few people who liked the film and thought it was a bold step in the right direction for Disney animation at that time. When it did finally and surprisingly make its appearance in a letterboxed version on video I bought it and thought it held up very well. Friends who've seen it with me thought it was pretty bad. It's certainly not the same as seeing it on the big screen but so much better than some of the other efforts from that era. Oliver & Company and The Rescuers Down Under come to mind.

    In scanning all the topics and different discussions going on in here it seems odd that no one mentions this film in any discussion of animation that I've seen. Before posting this I went on line and found Roger Ebert's original review of the film which I'm attaching below. It was nice to know that someone else liked the film besides me.

    There's bound to be others who visit MiceChat who have opinions about this one. Let's hear them!

    In the meantime...Heeere's Roger!!

    The Black Cauldron

    Release Date: 1985

    Ebert Rating: ***

    By Roger Ebert / Jul 24, 1985



    The best of the Disney animated features were not innocent children's entertainments, but blood-curdling stories of doom and obsession (with a few smiles along the way, of course). They only looked innocent because they were cartoons. Reflect for a moment on the Island of Lost Boys in ``Pinocchio,'' or what happened to Bambi's mother. The great Disney cartoons contained all of the fearsome possibilities of the Grimm fairy tales - or, for that matter, of life itself. Only in recent years have the Disney feature cartoons grown pale and innocuous, as part of the general delusion that harmless means colorless.

    Now comes a new Disney animated film in the old tradition. ``The Black Cauldron'' is a rip-roaring tale of swords and sorcery, evil and revenge, magic and pluck and luck. It tells the story of a search for a magic cauldron that can, if it falls into the hands of the evil Horned King, be used as a bottomless source of evil. And it takes us on a journey through a kingdom of some of the more memorable characters in any recent Disney film.

    There is, for example, Hen Wen, the psychic pig. She can look into a pot of water and picture there the current location of the black cauldron. That makes her invaluable to the Horned King - and also to Taran, the young man who dreams of someday becoming a great warrior.

    ``The Black Cauldron'' is a quest movie, telling the story of Taran's progress toward manhood, his journey through the kingdom, and his race against the Horned King for possession of the cauldron.

    All of this could, of course, look very silly. Stories like this have to be told with complete conviction or they lose their passion. What surprised me, as I sat through ``The Black Cauldron,'' was how quickly the story did absorb me. Instead of thinking deep thoughts about the past and future of Disney animation, I was caught up in the movie, amused by some of the characters, and sort of excited by the sky-splitting conclusion.

    The story was so involving, indeed, that at one moment an allegedly mature adult in the audience leaned over to me and whispered, ``But, Rog . . . if the pig is really psychic, how come they can't just find out where the cauldron is, and get there before the king?'' A good point, but a better point is this one: How long has it been since anyone took a Disney cartoon that seriously?

    The key to the movie is in the richness of the characterizations, and the two best characters, I think, are the Horned King (with voice by John Hurt), and a fuzzy little creature named Gurgi (voice by John Byner). Gurgi is a slavishly devoted little yes-man who gurgles with appreciation for everything done by anyone within earshot who is stronger than he is.

    The main character, the young knight Taran, is not one of the stronger characters in the movie, but maybe that's to be expected. His thankless task is to be brave and noble, and those are not fascinating aspects of character - particularly not when contrasted to all the other weird characters in the movie.

    The story is based on material I'm not familiar with, The Chronicles of Prydain series, by Lloyd Alexander. But some of the visuals look familiar, particularly Taran's magic sword, which seem borrowed from the laser swords in ``Star Wars,'' and the final apocalyptic conclusion, where the special effects fireworks look like the end of ``Raiders of the Lost Ark.'' The movie uses this borrowed material with such energy, however, that it earns its right to it. By the end of ``The Black Cauldron'' I was remembering, with something of a shock of nostalgia, the strength and utter storytelling conviction of the early Disney animators. ``The Black Cauldron'' is a return to the tradition.

  2. #2

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    Wow, I'm surprised that Ebert was so enthusiastic about The Black Cauldron. To me it's one of the studios lesser films. Sure it has some good intentions, but it's execution is messy and unpolished. The following is an analysis by Ernest Rister from another boad I visit. It's long, but is very through and perfectly sums up my thoughts on The Black Cauldron. Enjoy.

    (INLUDES MAJOR SPOILERS)

    "In my personal opinion, at the root of every bad movie is a bad screenplay. Before we can jump into an anlaysis into the wisdom of making Cauldron, I think it's fair to first judge the movie itself. Fantasia was probably an unwise business decision, too, but Fantasia turned out to be a glorious movie and is today one of the brightest gems in the Disney crown. Cauldron is not a bright gem.

    THE STORY

    The primary reason Cauldron doesn't work is the story. Cauldron is a "chase" movie. Like The Wizard of Oz and Star Wars, the good guys are in possession of an item that the villain desperately needs to consolidate his power. In the instance of Cauldron, that item is the pig, Hen-Wen, which has the magical ability to locate people and objects. The villain needs the pig to find the Black Cauldron, an evil object with the ability to create an Army of the Undead called the "Cauldron-Born". Those who have been charged with protecting the pig learn that the villain has learned of Hen-Wen's powers and they learn that the villain is now searching for the porcine oracle. The young "assisant pig-keeper", Taran, is ordered to take the pig into a secret location deep in the forest, to hide her from the villain.

    Taran is a young man who dreams of proving his manhood. He thirsts for adult respect, and believes that if he were a great warrior and soldier, he would be admired and would be seen finally as a man, and not a boy. He resents his job as "assistant pig-keeper", because how on earth could anyone respect a man whose primary job is servant, and servant to a pig, no less? Fighting and defeating the Horned King in battle, however, would earn him respect.

    So far, so good.

    Taran heads into the forest with Hen-Wen, and begins to daydream of people cheering his name. When he snaps out of his reverie, he discovers to his horror that the pig has wandered off. He begins to search for the pig, and is waylaid by the small furry animal, Gurgi, who pounces on him to steal his food. While arguing with Gurgi, Taran hears the squeals of Hen-Wen. He runs into a clearing and sees that winged servants of the Horned King are pursuing her. Despite his best efforts, she is captured by the beasts, who then fly off to the Horned King's castle (victory through medieval air power).

    Taran decides he must save her from the Horned King's clutches. Again, from a story stand point, so far, so good. Hen Wen is the "prize", and Taran is in pursuit. Taran asks the creature Gurgi to go with him, but Gurgi is a small coward who would never dream of such a thing. Taran goes alone.

    He infiltrates the Castle and finally sees the Horned King - a mysterious cloaked figure possessing magical abilities. He is visually terrifying, but as a character, he lacks a personality. He should be "the Wicked Witch" of the story looking for the Ruby slippers, or the Lord Voldemort questing for Harry Potter's blood, or Darth Vader looking for the Death Star plans. The Wicked Witch is a gleeful sadist who enjoys torturing others more than she does killing them. Voldemort is an incredibly arrogant racist who despises Wizards who have breeded with non-magical humans, and he wants to slaughter them all (sort of like Judge Frollo, only without the sense of humour). Darth Vader is a violent, passive-aggressive fascist who persecutes others for his own failures. When angered by his inability to control the world, Vader is the sort who would walk across the street to kick a puppy, to take out his own internal rage on those weaker than himself.

    The Horned King, when we see him in action, is like a skeleton on life support. His voice sounds like a strangled whisper, as if it is a struggle to even speak. Throughout the entire film, we learn nothing of who he really is. The hallmark of Disney animation is "personality animation", and yet, here is one of the most fearsome-looking Disney villains of all-time, and he has the all personality of a dying oak tree. We know the motivations of the Witch, Voldemort, and Vader. We don't know the Horned King's motivations, other than the woefully cliched hunger to "rule the world". Why does he want to rule the world? What makes him tick? We never know.

    Taran manages to grab Hen Wen and is chased through the castle. He throws Hen Wen off a high ledge into the castle moat, freeing her, but he is captured himself. Taran is thrown into the dungeon, and at this point in the movie, the story abruptly changes direction.

    Much has been made of the similarities between The Black Cauldron and Star Wars. With apologies to Carrie Fisher, Hen Wen is the Princess Leia of the story. Leia knows where the Rebel Base is, and Hen Wen knows where the Black Cauldron is. Luke infiltrates the Death Star to rescue Leia, Taran infiltrates the Castle to rescue Hen Wen. Vader tracks Luke and Leia to the rebel base, the Horned King tracks Taran to the Black Cauldron. Cauldron has also been compared to The Wizard of Oz, in that Taran/Dorothy and a group of unlikely friends try to face down an Unholy Evil who craves a magical object that will increase power.

    There is a primary reason why Star Wars and The Wizard of Oz work so well - and this has been termed the "victim/villain relationship" by Disney animators Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston in their book, The Disney Villains. In both Star Wars and Wizard of Oz, the protagonist and the antagonist have a distinct realtionship with each other. Luke hates Vader because Vader killed his father. They are personally linked through a debt of blood. The Wicked Witch of the West wants to kill Dorothy, because she blames Dorothy for the death of her sister, the Wicked Witch of the East. Dorothy also wears the Ruby Slippers of the dead sister, and the Witch wants them, and so the protagonist and the antagonist are personally linked.

    There is no personal linkage between the Horned King and Taran. They have no personal relationship at all, no personal conflicts. If you don't have have conflict, you don't have drama. You feel for Luke and Dorothy because they have suffered an injustice at the hands of the antagonist. Once Taran rescues Hen Wen, the entire dramatic arc of the movie shifts to Taran's quest for respect and heroism. All the drama in the film up to this point has been a Maguffin, we realize. The only real conflict in the story is Taran's battle with his own pride.

    As the second act begins, Taran sits mournfully in the dungeon, deeply ashamed at his failure, his pride stinging as he recalls his own bold promises and dreams from the beginning of the story.

    A stone in the floor suddenly lifts up, and a teenage girl enters from the floor below. Also a prisoner of the Horned King, she has escaped her cell and has heard Taran's mournful self-loathing, and so, she breaks into Taran's cell to see if he can help her escape. She is disappointed that Taran is just a young teenage boy, not a warrior, which rankles Taran (again, the wounded pride), but she invites Taran to come with her, anyway.

    The girl says she is the Princess Eilonwy, and once again, we are given a character with no clear personality and motivations. Like the Horned King, she is a paper-thin cliche. A Princess of an unnamed kingdom, with a few token words of empowered feminism ("Girl? If not for this girl, you would still be in the Horned King's dungeon!"), she serves no narrative purpose in the story at all, except to scream at scary things and to give comfort and encouragement to Taran.

    Why was Eilonmy captured? Because she is accompanied by a magic bauble, a swirling ball of light that swirls around her like Peter Pan's Tinker Bell. Eilonmy tells Taran that she was captured because the Horned King thought the Bauble could tell him "where some old Cauldron" could be found.

    What is the Bauble? What powers does it have? Why does it appear and disappear throughout the story? What is its point and narrative purpose in the film? The answers to these questions never come. Indeed, the Bauble is forgotten about rather quickly, by both the audience and apparently, the creative team.

    Taran and Eilonwy creep through the corridors underneath the dungeons, looking for an escape route. They accidentally stumble into an antechamber housing the tomb of the Good King who once ruled in the castle before it became a domicile of evil. Atop the King's stone casket is a sword. Taran's eyes glitter (he needs a sword to prove himself a warrior). Taran performs a bit of grave-robbery, and takes the sword for himself.

    When Taran and Eilonwy are discovered by one of the Horned King's soldiers, the sword magically comes to life, slashing and shattering the weapons of the guard, who runs in terror. Taran is overjoyed -- the sword is the answer to his prayers...with the magic sword, he can finally be the great warrior he has always dreamed of becoming.

    Taran and Eilonwy begin to make their escape, and they run into a cell housing another prisoner of the Horned King -- an old man named Flewdurr Flam, a travelling bard with a magic harp. The harp's magic power? It snaps a string every time Flewdurr tells a lie. Taran and Eilonwy rescue Flewdurr and the trio make a daring escape, with Taran's sword saving the day again and again.

    What is Flewdurr's point in the story? Comedy relief, I suppose, and a few words of wisdom here and there.

    Outside the castle, the group rests and regroups. They are set upon by Gurgi, who is looking for food. Taran calls Gurgi a coward, but Gurgi remembers that he has seen Hen Wen's footprints.

    The group, with Gurgi leading the way, begin to try and find Hen Wen. They follow her footprints, until they stop at a large pond. The pond is a magical door into the land of the "Fair Folk", winged pixies who are aligned against the Horned King. They have been hiding Hen Wen, and Taran tells them the Horned King is after the Cauldron. Taran figures that if they can reach the Cauldron first, and destroy it, then they can stop the Horned King's plans.

    The King of the Fair Folk, Eidelleg, knows where the Cauldron is hidden, and so he sends the cranky old pixie, Doli, to lead Taran and his friends. Taran says goodbye to Hen Wen, and the pig is never seen again until the last shot of the film. Again, she is a Maguffin, the true story of the film is Taran's quest for respect.

    The party is led into the swamp of Morva, where the Cauldron is guarded by three witches. They bargain for possession of the Cauldron, and Taran reluctantly gives up his sword in exchange for it. Once the Cauldron is raised, the party suddenly realizes they can't damage it in any way. The Three Witches re-appear and tell them the Cauldron cannot be destroyed. Once it has been activated, and begins creating the Undead Army, the only way to stop it is by sacrifice. A living being must climb into it of its own free will, and give up his life.

    The group sits dejectedly, and then the screenwriters realize they have no use for Doli anymore, and so he chastises the group for being incompetent, and he vanishes. Suddenly the party is ambushed by the Horned King's soldiers, who have been following them. Cowardly Gurgi runs away, and watches in the distance as the group is taken prisoner and led back to the Castle with the Cauldron in tow.

    Why are Taran, Eilonwy, and Flewdurr taken back to the Castle? I suppose the Horned King suffers from "James Bond Villain" syndrome. Killing the group would be too easy. Far better to tie them up so you can call them names and then force them to be victims of the Cauldron-Born.

    DR. HORNED KING BLOFELD
    Mwah ha ha ha. Goodbye, Mr. Bond. I have you tied up so you can watch me turn on my destructive evil weapon. Now, I will leave the room, so you can figure out a way to escape and thwart my evil plan, which will surely end with my own ironic destruction. Come, incompetent lackey - let us watch from atop my fortress, which surely will explode and collapse just as the good guys escape.

    The Horned King has the Cauldron taken to a room inside his castle which is full of decomposing skeletons -- bodies apparently dug up out of graves or collected on some distant battlefield and taken to the castle to be used as an undead army. The Horned King sneers at Taran and friends, then deposits a dead warrior into the Cauldron, and then, in a nod to The Ten Commandments, a creepy mist issues forth, which brings the dead soldiers to life.

    The skeletons begin to rise and stagger around, killing a few of the Horned King's soldiers. This sequence shows heavy signs of editorial tinkering, with last-minute edits so jarring, they interrupt music cues (as the film cuts from one shot to another, you can hear the tail end of a symbal crash fading into the distance. If you have the Black Cauldron soundtrack by Elmer Bernstein, you can "hear" the original sequence in its true form. It is well-known that Jeffrey Katzenberg - new to the company - took the scissors to The Black Cauldron in an effort to improve the film weeks before its release (or possibly, cut out certain shots to try to avoid a then-controversial PG rating). Nowhere is Katzenberg's tinkering more apparent than in these climactic scenes, though the rumour goes some lifts were also made during Taran's 1st act trip through the forest looking for Hen Wen before he meets Gurgi, as well as the removal of a character named Moose, who was one of the Horned King's less-intelligent soldiers. According to Disney insiders, the cut footage is nothing to write home about, and amounts to around two minutes, total.

    Still, the cuts to this final sequence are readily apparent, and because these cuts were made to lessen the terror and violence of the Cauldron-Born, they therefore somewhat lessen the importance of stopping them. It would be nice to one day see a completely-uncut Cauldron, but it is doubtful two minutes of footage could solve the film's myriad problems.

    The Horned King leaves the room so he can go to a high ledge of his castle and watch the Cauldron Born slowly walk forth and slaughter everyone in the Kingdom.

    Meanwhile back in the dungeon, Gurgi suddenly appears, having had a change of heart, realizing he must not be a coward and that he must stand up for his friends. Gurgi frees the group, and then Taran decides to jump into the Cauldron and sacrifice himself to stop its evil. Gurgi will not let Taran kill himself, saying "Master has many friends. Gurgi has no friends." Gurgi throws himself into the Cauldron, the Cauldron switches gears from "Blow Green Mist" to "Suck Green Mist Back In". A fierce wind whips through the room as the Cauldron begins to vacuum the green mist back into itself.

    The Horned King becomes enraged as he watches the bodies of his undead warriors stop in their tracks and fall to pieces. He storms back to the dungeon (as fast as he can, which isn't very fast), and sees Taran near the Cauldron. The Horned King decides to try and throw Taran into the Cauldron to "satisfy its hunger". Taran kicks the Horned King into the Cauldron's "vacuum", and the Horned King is swept across the floor to the Cauldron's base. The Cauldron glows red, the Horned King grabs a hold of it to try and hold on, and then then the wind becomes extremely fierce, ripping all the clothes and flesh off the Horned King's bones, leaving nothing of the King other than a shocked and stunned skeleton, which then explodes.

    The Cauldron grows super-hot, Taran rejoins Eilonwy and Flewdur as they try to escape the castle by boat. Apparently, there is a sizable lake around the castle, a fact the filmmakers have forgotten to show us up until now. The castle collapses, pushing the boat to safety on a giant blast of water.

    Taran and friends paddle to shore and watch silently as the castle submerges into the lake. The Cauldron suddenly bubbles to the surface, and floats towards them. The Three Witches then re-appear, to reclaim the Cauldron. Flewdurr (suddenly acting as Taran's attorney) refuses to give up the Cauldron for nothing. The Witches offer to exchange Taran's magic sword in exchange for the Cauldron so he can be a hero.

    "I'm no hero. Gurgi was the hero." Taran says, grieving. "I'm not a warrior. I'm a pig-keeper." Taran says, finally at peace with his station in life.

    Taran proves his inner strength and true quality of character by rejecting power. He offers to exchange the Cauldron for Gurgi. The Witches balk, and Flewdurr chides them. The Witches grow angry, and turn into streaks of light that swirl around the Cauldron. When the lights vanish, so has the Cauldron, and in its place is the lifeless body of Gurgi. Taran picks up Gurgi's body and the animal's head flops back, mouth open. It is an uncomfortable image, a degree of unnecessary realism that for my money is more distasteful than anything else in the movie.

    The camera switches to a close up of Taran's face, and then we suddenly hear Gurgi's voice. Disney Ex Machina! Gurgi is alive! The band rejoices, and then they all happily march off into the sunrise. Meanwhile, Taran's aged mentor, Dallben, watches as magical pig Hen Wen projects a vision of all that has transpired. "You did well, my boy! You did well!" the mentor says.

    Taran has achieved Adult Respect.

    The End.

    THE ANIMATION AND THE DVD

    The Black Cauldron was photographed in Technirama 70, the same wide-screen process used for Sleeping Beauty in 1959. Lacking compelling characters and a compelling story and compelling drama, Cauldron tried to rely instead on rock-'em, sock-'em f/x animation, swooping camera moves, and booming 6-track Dolby Stereo Sound in the 70mm venues.

    Several experimental procedures were used in the film. Cauldron was the first animated Disney film to incorporate Computer-Generated Images alongside hand-drawn images (*not* The Great Mouse Detective, which is often incorrectly cited by Disney as being their first film to use CGI in their hand-drawn films). In Cauldron, the escape-boat and Eilonwy's Magic Bauble were both created by Computer.

    Another experimental choice was the use of live-action fog elements seen as a red, swirling background in the shots of Taran first approaching the Horned King's castle. Live-action elements were also used for the shots of green broiling smoke bubbling out of the Cauldron. The use of live-action film elements in Disney feature animation stretches all the way back to Fantasia, Dumbo, and Bambi, but these were somewhat subtle, used for rain f/x at night or revolving snowflakes seen in close-up. In Cauldron, these are not subtle.

    The multiplane camera also received a work-out unlike anything seen in Disney animation since Sleeping Beauty in 1959. The DVD production notes state that Cauldron was the most technically elaborate animated feature since Pinocchio, but the final product has none of the refinement of Bambi, let alone Sleeping Beauty.

    The quality of the clean-up animation and line work in Cauldron is best described as spotty, at best - some shots are pristine, some are alarmingly rushed, as the production team raced to complete the film on time. Some shots are as polished as anything seen in Alice in Wonderland, only to cut to another shot of a character riddled with obvious construction lines and line scrawl.

    As for character animation, the film betrays the inexperience of the young animation team. An early shot of Taran swinging a stick like a sword is particularly unconvincing, with no weight passed down through the body. The Fair Folk are also weak in both design and animation, coming off like Smurfs with wings.

    The best character animation seen in the film is saved for the comedic supporting characters, such as Gurgi, and Creeper, the Horned King's abused lackey. Some bravura animation was also employed for the Horned King's dragon-like spies, the Gwythaints.

    The best the film has to offer for animation buffs is the f/x animation. The emergence of the Cauldron in Morva, complete with ground-ripping earthquake and landscape-shredding tornado, is a stand-out, as is the moment when the Cauldron is brought to ghastly life by the Horned King.

    The film was not the huge flop people today assume it was. According to Disney, the film had a production budget of $25 million dollars, and had a domestic gross of almost $22 million. Still, in 1985, Cauldron was the first Disney animated film to not recoup its production budget in domestic theaters in over two decades, and as such, it stood out as a failure. The film was never re-released theatrically in the U.S., and it sat on the shelf in the Disney vault for over a decade, before finally seeing home video release in Europe, followed by a pan-and-scan only home video release in Region 1 in 1998.

    The VHS release of Cauldron featured muted colors, a drab and fuzzy transfer, a stereo mix that could not possibly replicate the film's wall-shaking sound design, and because of the severe frame-cropping, the film's wide-screen staging could not be appreciated at all. This is the version of The Black Cauldron that most Americans are familiar with, and it's a shame.

    Finally released on DVD in 2000 as part of Disney's Gold Collection, the film was given a substantial digital makeover. Disney chose to present the film on DVD in its original aspect ratio, and created a new transfer that dramatically improved upon the previous release image in terms of both color saturation and sharpness. The wide soundstage of the 5.1 audio track also restores the intended sonic-oomph of the film, with aggressive use of isolated sound f/x in the front left and right channels, as well as the eerie omnipresent voice of the Horned King, reverberating through the rear channels to surround you with John Hurt's strangled whispers.

    Though it lacks a wide-screen enhacement, it is still miles ahead of the VHS release, and if you ever choose to view The Black Cauldron, the DVD is the only way it should be seen.

    FINAL THOUGHTS

    The Black Cauldron didn't fail because of spooky animated skeletons or scary visuals - it failed because the writers and directors could not place them in a fantasy context that audiences could connect to. Snow White and Pinocchio feature moments of great horror, but they are rooted by solid story construction and characters that audiences could relate to and care about. There is little empathy with anyone in the film, because the characters are one-dimensional stereotypes. Unlike The Wizard of Oz or The Dark Crystal or Star Wars, the film fails to establish a compelling fantasy realm. Prydain should be a land rich in visual imagination, instead, it is made up of locations that almost feel as if they're recycled sets from some animation back-lot, from Maleficent's haunted castle in Sleeping Beauty to the Dwarfs' Log Bridge in Snow White.

    Ultimately, the film is a failure of imagination, which is a shame, because so much hard work was obviously put into it. Somewhere within all that pre-production work was an opportunity for The Black Cauldron to score with mass audiences, but the muddled story and limp screenwriting scuttled the film before the first frame was ever drawn.

    At the end of the day, story and character are what matter the most in any film of this kind. Without them, all the visual and sonic gimmicks in the world will not save you. Cauldron is an interesting, ambitious film, with some bold choices and strong visuals, but it serves animation fans best as a prime example of what happens when you can draw a great dragon, but can't write a great character.

    -- Ernest Rister, 2/7/04"
    Last edited by yensid98; 03-08-2005 at 02:52 PM.
    What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?

  3. #3

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    I don't have anything to add to the discussion at the moment, but thought I would respond just to let others know that they aren't alone. I'm one of the rare few who enjoy this movie also. Although I seem to recall that being a minority in that isn't new. I saw it with my father and a friend of his as a child. they both hated it, but I still quote Gurgy (sp?). Munchings and crunchings anyone?




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    I like it too, although I think it would have been way better if they had used Tim Burton's concept art for the film since he was a concept artist for the film but his concepts did not make it into the film...

  5. #5

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    Interesting bit of information, Boingo. Perhaps the powers that be thought the public wasn't ready for Tim Burton. I'd really like to see some his concept drawings for the picture. Is there a book or film clip where one can see them? I believe it was Frankenweenie that really got people to sit up and pay attention.

  6. #6

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    Sadly, it's arguable better than Atlantis...

  7. #7

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    Actually, I like this movie as well. I used to be the only one in my group who had seen it but thanks to Roon Disney, another of my pals watched it. He had no real commentary about the thing. Almost everything about it screamed different at the point it started apart from the animation style that had been used for a couple of years. The characters were a breath of fresh air and Taran didn't fall into the sad fate of what Disney males came to be. Sure he wasn't too much of a strong point but he held things together and did a lot of noble stuff. And one of the rare times, Disney didn't focus on the film's princess a lot. And Gurgi... well, he was also sadly forgotten.

    I think it didn't tick with audiences due to the fact it broke through the Disney factor. Same with Hunchback. Society has labeled Disney to stay in the boundries of a ll around light hearted fun and family appealing but never going over the top.

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    I haven't seen the movie, but couldn't the problem of the Horned King finding the Cauldron have been solved by a nice porkchop dinner? :devil:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mousekiteer
    Same with Hunchback.
    Hunchback fails as a movie because the characters are transparent, the songs are drivel (save for Hellfire, the only song that actually progressed the character rather then recount what we already know), and the story was thin.

    Actually, mainly, for me, it's the songs. The music is what's been lacking since Little Mermaid/Lion King/Aladdin. Those were true musicals, where the songs had depth and revealed something of the story and the characters. Since then, the music has been uninspired drivel.
    Last edited by Bacon; 02-28-2005 at 09:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by desertdweller
    Interesting bit of information, Boingo. Perhaps the powers that be thought the public wasn't ready for Tim Burton. I'd really like to see some his concept drawings for the picture. Is there a book or film clip where one can see them? I believe it was Frankenweenie that really got people to sit up and pay attention.
    I saw some of the concept art he did for it on the Biography channal show about him a while back. I have been trying to find some on the net but can't. It is really cool, very much like Nightmare Before Christmas. But at the time Burton was a nobody, just anouther disney animator from CalArts. He also worked on the Fox and the Hound but had breakdown saying quote; "I just could not draw those cute little animals, mine always ended up looking like roadkill", and he would walk around the disney lot with a nose bleed and just let it bleed to be a freak. He also kept on hiding in a cupboard for some reason, he really freaked out while working for disney! So disney stuck him on concept art for BC thinking that that would make him happier since I think Disney knew that he was way talented but they also appointed an old disney guy from the Walt days and his consepts were chosen over Burtons.

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    I just got a copy of this on DVD... I don't think it is a waste of time... In fact you could see it for it's historical value...

    Yes, the plot is weakly teathered...

    But what I appreciated is that the movie itself has echos of the 1977 cult classic animated movie "Wizards" and as well as the made for TV animated movie "the Hobbit" which was released that same year...

    The thing that always got me was that the movie was in a string of "dark features" and "darke themed movies" in the disney pantheon just before Eisner and Katsenberg took over the studio...

    Shaggy DA (76)
    Treasure of Matecumbe (76)
    The Rescuers (77)
    Return to Witch Mountain (78)
    The Black Hole (79)
    Watcher in the Woods (81)
    The Devil and Max Devlin (81)
    Tron (82)
    Night Crossing (82)
    Something Wicked This Way Comes (83)
    The Black Cauldron. (85)

    It only really stands out because durring this period of time the studio was making only 5 films a year... Plus durring this time there where a whole slew of "evil children" horror films in the market... I always find this period of movie history some what facinating...

    The irony is this the time I grew up...

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    I just viewed the picture again...

    I am amazed at how many elements are carried on to other films... You can trace the influence of the Black Caldron in The Little Mermaid, The Road to El Dorado, as well as other films... And yes, there is alittle bit of Gurgie in Stitch...

    But the anti-war, anti-apocolypse themes shown in the film are haunting... I always find it interesting how humans depict what they fear most on film in an effort to distroy it... Self sacrifice now can kill a greater evil...

    These are heavey themes for kids... But it was hight of the cold war and recouperation from Viatnam... There was a greater fear of a darker unknown... A loss of innocence...

    It in someways this movie was so much more optomistic than films depicting these themes against kids... Movies that depicted children leading the way to the apocolypse... (The Omen, Rosemary's Baby, Children of the Corn.) And these films where being made round the same time...
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    I took another look at the books by Lloyd Allexander and compared it to the plot of the movie... It makes sense now where the movie story failings are... Essencially a new story is synthisized and too much of what makes the story function properly was left out... It created a plot that made no sense without the added exposition... The fear of the Cauldron Born who could not die by normal swords... The fact that Eilowen is a sorceres in training rather than a princess, that Fflewdder was a king turned bard whose enchanted harp strings break when he tells a lies... The details of the myth are lost in generalities... And the character names are difficult to pronounce... Despite Gurgie being a very compelling and character...

    The series is excellent... I do recomend the books...
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