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Thread: Sin City

  1. #31

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    It probably doesn't matter so long as you can turn them in to chop suey right?
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  2. #32

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    Does anyone have a pic of Kevin reading the bible at the farm?
    Eglantine, Eglantine, oh how you shine!
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  3. #33

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    Well CH- I think there is a fine line between a woman being exploited and a woman in control of her sexuality. No man will deny that a beautiful woman is a powerful one because she is always in control where a man is concerned. I think the women in Sin City are in control of their sexuality, so they are as powerful as the men.
    It's kind of like the difference between playboy (which I subscribe to) and say, Hustler.
    Most women would consider it an honor to pose for playboy because it celebrates female beauty (in my opinion) and the women are not being taken advantage of. Now on the otherhand, Hustler and other's like it pander to male fantasies.
    I don't believe this film was pandering at all.

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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by dramaqueen
    Is that what you were looking for?
    Not exactly, but it does seem a good enough answer...
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  5. #35

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    The whole point of the women being in Old Town is to be free of male pimps as well. And I'm not sure this is clear in the movie, but in at least one of the books, the twins (Goldie and ?) are actually "in charge" of the women.

    And there are other women in BaSin City....just not in Old Town. In Old Town, you have your tough kickass prostitutes, and the men who get whacked by them (literally and figuratively). I them as role models. :devil:

  6. #36

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    Me too, sb
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  7. #37

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    And let's not forget that Lucille is a parole officer. Nancy is a dancer, true, but you saw the books in her apartment. Criminal law, etc. She's got a brain, and she's only dancing to make a living...

    It is true that it's a pretty generalized view, but look at the environment. In a place like Basin City, and given the main characters we were following in the movie, would you really expect to come across prominent female doctors, lawyers or teachers? I don't see those type of women frequenting the back alleys and grungy bars of Sin City. It's all a matter of perspective...
    Honor those who fall under the sword.
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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaver
    And let's not forget that Lucille is a parole officer. Nancy is a dancer, true, but you saw the books in her apartment. Criminal law, etc. She's got a brain, and she's only dancing to make a living...
    That is sort of the problem, the speed bump in the argument.... All women are selling sex in the movie... It is independant of their profession... It isn't just a lifestyle choice... It becomes what women do...

    That and chop men up like they are Benihana chefs...

    I am suspecting it is the freedom to protect themselves, violence of women against men... that makes things OK...

    Like I said, the message of the movie is really for men... the only salvation for men is to commit acts of self sacrifice for love...
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound
    That is sort of the problem, the speed bump in the argument.... All women are selling sex in the movie... It is independant of their profession... It isn't just a lifestyle choice... It becomes what women do...

    That and chop men up like they are Benihana chefs...

    I am suspecting it is the freedom to protect themselves, violence of women against men... that makes things OK...

    Like I said, the message of the movie is really for men... the only salvation for men is to commit acts of self sacrifice for love...
    Just curious, how is a parole officer selling sex? Being sexy? That she was. Selling sex? Not at all. Again, though, you have to look at the environment, and the circles the characters run in. Perhaps you can give me an example of why and how a prominent, affluent female figure would fit in the environments we're exposed to in Sin City? That's like making a movie set in Chinatown, and complaining that most of the people we see are asian... It just goes with the environment...
    Honor those who fall under the sword.
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaver
    Just curious, how is a parole officer selling sex? Being sexy? That she was. Selling sex? Not at all. Again, though, you have to look at the environment, and the circles the characters run in. Perhaps you can give me an example of why and how a prominent, affluent female figure would fit in the environments we're exposed to in Sin City? That's like making a movie set in Chinatown, and complaining that most of the people we see are asian... It just goes with the environment...
    I am not saying that the film is a "real life substitute"... Which is what you are leaning toward... I am talking within the mise en scen,

    The parole officer is hyper-sexualized... if she wasn't scantaly clad, dressed in a business suit would you have cared? If she was more of a realistic body type, how would it change the plot of the film?

    But you said she dances to make a living... which is a form of selling sex... The purpose is the arousal of men... The parol part seemed unrealistic, which is OK, the film is not realistic... But the choices of the story are interesting... and they imply a meaning...

    I don't believe in art for art's sake... Usually it has a function...
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound
    The parole officer is hyper-sexualized... if she wasn't scantaly clad, dressed in a business suit would you have cared? If she was more of a realistic body type, how would it change the plot of the film?

    But you said she dances to make a living... which is a form of selling sex... The purpose is the arousal of men... The parol part seemed unrealistic, which is OK, the film is not realistic... But the choices of the story are interesting... and they imply a meaning...
    Nancy dances to make a living, Lucille is a parole officer who is obviously not all that professional if she's parading around naked in front of one of her parolees and handing out medication to him. I'm just being clear on who we're talking about.

    It's all in context. If the books or the movie were about Basin City General.....you'd have strong female doctors who would most likely be scantily clad. If it was Law and Order in Basin City, you'd have sexy judges and brutish lawyers. But we're seeing back alleys and strip clubs in the movie......and Old Town. In that context you're seeing sleazy barmaids, strippers and hookers, surrounded by corrupt cops and ex-cons. So what's the point? They're all strong women in their own way. So what if they're half naked? They're kicking major bootie.

    Like I said, the message of the movie is really for men... the only salvation for men is to commit acts of self sacrifice for love...
    Why does there have to be a message? And why not art for art's sake?

    In my opinion, I don't believe that there's only a message for men. I love the movie and loooove the novels. I love the artwork, the drawings, the memorable and kickass characters. I love their imperfections and I love that at the heart of all the "protagonists" they're good people leading crappy lives.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by stinkerbell
    Why does there have to be a message? And why not art for art's sake?

    In my opinion, I don't believe that there's only a message for men. I love the movie and loooove the novels. I love the artwork, the drawings, the memorable and kickass characters. I love their imperfections and I love that at the heart of all the "protagonists" they're good people leading crappy lives.

    Look at the "sympathetic" characters... the ones that carry the narrative... they are all men... The men aren't hyper-sexualized... You have Nerds, Pimps, Tough Guys, Cops, Politicians... etc... They are often identified and presented by their utility... They aren't showing off their physical atributes, with maybe the exception of one character... That utilitarian vision is part of the Hyper-masculine mystique...

    I guess deep down I am more of a hippy than I will ever admit to myself... The whole concept of "free love" was to combat this vision of the world...

    As for art for art's sake... There is always a deeper sociological function within any dramatic endevor, since it was created in religious practices over 3,000 years ago... And it is just as true today... Postmodernism tries to make you recognise the choices you make as forms of attaching yourself to something "astheticly pleasing." Postmodernist film has a function the same as Premodernist theatre... And I think it is vanity to assume culture has changed all that much...
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  13. #43

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    And you're entitled to your opinion. It just differs vastly from mine. I'm not sure my opinions have to anything to with vanity, and I believe that art is entirely subjective. To each their own. I happen to believe that the female form is gorgeous and I don't think that it's exploitation to put gorgeous strong half naked characters into a cool story. I just think, "yeah!"

    And are you suggesting Frank Miller hates women so he reduces them to sexual beings? I think that's simplistic. I feel like that's what's not being said (sorry, I'm putting words in your mouth, it's just for argument's sake). After all, you claim that there's a message for the men. Wouldn't that then be the message to the women? Women: you are what you wear and who you screw. Is there a message also to child killers? If you kill, you'll turn into a Yellow ******* and get your brain smashed to smithereens. Come on. If there are messages, then they can interpreted in as many ways as there are viewers. And that's fine by me.

  14. #44

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    I want to make sure everyone understands that I really thing this discussion is a good thing... In otherwords, I am not trying to personalize it it anyway, as like... an attack on anyone... It's all good... I just wanted to discuss some of these points... You know?

    Quote Originally Posted by stinkerbell
    And you're entitled to your opinion. It just differs vastly from mine. I'm not sure my opinions have to anything to with vanity, and I believe that art is entirely subjective. To each their own.
    Subjectivity has everything to do with asthetics... I am taking about the Function of art... That art has a purpose... That purpose is known to the artist, and is presented to the audiance as is... If you do not have an audiance then there is no art... It is a form of communication in a way...

    Asthetics looks at quality of what is being communicated... And since quality can never be defined ultimately... You "know it when you see it"... That is subjectivity... (defining a subject...)

    And are you suggesting Frank Miller hates women so he reduces them to sexual beings?
    No, I didn't say that... I can't fathom what Frank Miller thinks... But he does present women as hyper sexualized... That presents a certian point of view... Because of the style of film, you are conscious of this as a "choice"... It isn't subversive, it is obvert and apparent... A choice... As opposed to something that is "hidden" in the script...

    And this is what interests me... despite postmodernism, these images and ideas are still presented... As a comic book vision of the world... Something that does not exist... It is presented as pure fantasy... And it says that the Male Gaze is fantastic and unreal...

    That I find intresting... I also find it interesting that women are attracted to this hyper masculine view of the world as fantasy...
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  15. #45

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    cellar, I'm just curious, can you give me an example of a portayal of a "hyper sexualized" male? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just really curious as to what your definition of one would be...
    Honor those who fall under the sword.
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