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  1. #31

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    Peter Pan (rereleased Tuesday) includes an embarrassing depiction of American Indians down to the "How's" and "Ugh's". What makes the red man red, indeed.
    How do you explain, Tigerlilly? If it wasn't a satirical look at how First Nation Peoples where represented in film media at the time?

    I don't buy the argument...

    I don't think you can draw the comparison...

    Again it is the history of the film with Walt and the NAACP that is the driving factor here... Now if you put down that on the disc with the film - it would be interesting... But will people view that? Probably not unless it is somehow integrated into the main film property... I think that is why there is a reluctance... There are too many people who just don't care...
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  2. #32

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    Each of the examples you provided include examples of relatively small amounts of racial insensitvity (length wise anyway). Song of the South has so many racial issues, that it easily surpasses anything Disney has released recently.
    So a little bit of racism is acceptable for release to the public, but a lot of racism isn't? Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?

    It makes no sense for Disney to withhold release of SOTS on politically correct grounds considering what's already out there. SOTS, however, has become the 900 pound elephant in the room that no one at Disney wants to acknowledge, and that's a shame. Hopefully, Iger's comments today will change that perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    We've talked about this topic ad nauseum.
    Yes we have. And both your and my comments are in most of those threads.

  3. #33

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by snowflake View Post
    Well, for starters, BoaN is a film in public domain, hence the multiple DVD issues. Historically important, it is socially repugnant and was also picketed and protested in 1915 when it was released.
    And screened by Woodrow Wilson in the White House.
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  4. #34

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn, Renaissance Woman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loomis View Post
    That is, Uncle Remus is not a downtrodden slave, but has rather a happy go lucky one.

    SotS takes place *after* the Civil War. Uncle Remus is *not* a slave!

    The movie shows the wisdom and caring of Uncle Remus against the short sightedness and self-centeredness of the parents and family of the young boy. Uncle Remus shows these folk what they are missing by ignoring the boy and his feelings.

    Have you seen the film?
    See what I mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound View Post
    Again it is the history of the film with Walt and the NAACP that is the driving factor here... Now if you put down that on the disc with the film - it would be interesting... But will people view that? Probably not unless it is somehow integrated into the main film property... I think that is why there is a reluctance... There are too many people who just don't care...
    I agree. Although the NAACP released a statement that they are not against the film, and do not have a stance regarding it being censored or banned.

    In other threads regarding this issue, posters have basically said that they hoped all the extra historical information was able to be skipped as they had no interest in watching it, nor would they make their children watch it.

    That bothered me quite a bit. I've read many similar statements on a variety of Disney related boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    So a little bit of racism is acceptable for release to the public, but a lot of racism isn't? Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?
    You don't see a difference between a few seconds of footage as opposed to an ENTIRE movie?

    A character by the name of a slur specifically used against children doesn't strike you as odd either?

  5. #35

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?
    Or a little bit tipsy.
    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    Hopefully, Iger's comments today will change that perception.
    What did he say? By the way I couldn't help but notice the two olives in your martinis. Was that the Cove? (My favorite martini bar). And, if I'm not being overly inquisitive, they kind of looked like Vodka martinis to me, please tell.

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    I don't watch south park. I don't find being offensive for the sake of being offensive funny.
    Too bad. If that's all you can see in South Park, then I understand how you can only see certain things in other films or shows.
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  7. #37

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Someone could just as well say they can understand why a person who watches South Park would not see certain things in other films or shows.

    Personally, I think it's ridiculous to make such statements.

  8. #38

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    You don't see a difference between a few seconds of footage as opposed to an ENTIRE movie?
    Actually, no I don't. If I call someone a racially derogatory name, does that make me any less a racist than if I write a whole book about why I said it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    A character by the name of a slur specifically used against children doesn't strike you as odd either?
    I'm well aware of the "tar baby" reference and its origins. It's interesting to note, however, how the context of the term has changed over time--largely because of Joel Chandler Harris's story.

    Dictionary.com defines "tar baby" as "a situation, problem, or the like, that is almost impossible to solve or to break away from. "

    Similarly, the American Heritage Dictionary calls it "A situation or problem from which it is virtually impossible to disentangle oneself."

    No reference is made to any derogatory racial epithet. Without forcing historical context down anyone's throat, "tar baby" has become a pretty benign term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    In other threads regarding this issue, posters have basically said that they hoped all the extra historical information was able to be skipped as they had no interest in watching it, nor would they make their children watch it.

    That bothered me quite a bit. I've read many similar statements on a variety of Disney related boards.
    So, basically, you're saying no one should be allowed to enjoy Song of the South for entertainment purposes unless he/she is subjected to the proper dose of politically correct historical subtext. I agree, the information should be included, because the movie does contain its share of racial stereotyping. But it also includes lessons in friendship, tolerance and family values--not to mention some pretty enjoyable animation--that IMO transcend the stereotypes. It's quite easy to view SOTS as an entertainment--nothing more, nothing less--and people should be allowed to view it that way if they want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by sixwoofys View Post
    What did he say? By the way I couldn't help but notice the two olives in your martinis. Was that the Cove? (My favorite martini bar). And, if I'm not being overly inquisitive, they kind of looked like Vodka martinis to me, please tell.
    Dirty Grey Goose martini at the Cove. Yumm!

    And regarding Iger's comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    It appears that Disney may be reconsidering a SOTS release. This from the shareholders' meeting today (post 10 and 11):

    http://www.micechat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56485

  9. #39

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    Actually, no I don't. If I call someone a racially derogatory name, does that make me any less a racist than if I write a whole book about why I said it?
    Personally, I think so. I hear people use racially derogatory names on a daily basis, all you have to do is play a video game online for a few minutes.

    However, if someone wrote a book full of racist comments, to me, that's clearly more cause for concern.

    I'm well aware of the "tar baby" reference and its origins. It's interesting to note, however, how the context of the term has changed over time--largely because of Joel Chandler Harris's story.
    The "tar baby" reference was never in the Uncle Remus stories. Joel Chandler put them in.

    Dictionary.com defines "tar baby" as "a situation, problem, or the like, that is almost impossible to solve or to break away from. "

    Similarly, the American Heritage Dictionary calls it "A situation or problem from which it is virtually impossible to disentangle oneself."

    No reference is made to any derogatory racial epithet. Without forcing historical context down anyone's throat, "tar baby" has become a pretty benign term.
    So because no mention of it exists online, it doesn't exist? I can give you a whole list of slurs that will not show up in the dictionary. That does not however devoid them of their meaning.

    Mammy isn't a widely used slur in this age either, but if I someone called my mother that, I'm sure the response would be different.

    So, basically, you're saying no one should be allowed to enjoy Song of the South for entertainment purposes unless he/she is subjected to the proper dose of politically correct historical subtext. I agree, the information should be included, because the movie does contain its share of racial stereotyping. But it also includes lessons in friendship, tolerance and family values--not to mention some pretty enjoyable animation--that IMO transcend the stereotypes. It's quite easy to view SOTS as an entertainment--nothing more, nothing less--and people should be allowed to view it that way if they want to.
    Because truly, ignorance is bliss.

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Having never seen Song of the South (and I won't sanction property theft), I'm curious to see it and I hope Disney releases it on DVD. I agree with Soulquarian that it's probably best suited to the Treasures series, since what I've seen looks very entertaining yet lends itself to the establishment of a wider context for the movie.

    That said, it's the responsibility of each person to put a movie or book or sculpture in its proper context. Soulquarian's right that to ignore or downplay the racial stereotypes is shallow at best but I do think a work of art speaks for itself. People can figure things out on their own and learn not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    For example, when I've seen Gone With the Wind, a great book and terrific movie, with younger audiences, they usually come to straightforward conclusions on their own without lecturing or prompting, along the lines of "gee, it's a good thing we defeated slavery..."

    Breakfast at Tiffany's is another movie, with its dated, stereotypical depiction of an Oriental man (played by Mickey Rooney when whites played some Asian roles), that's brilliant in spite of the dated material. So the bottom line seems to be: don't sugarcoat the stereotype, bring it out in the open, assess a movie on its merits--and keep a proper context.
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  11. #41

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by HeavensLight View Post
    Having never seen Song of the South (and I won't sanction property theft), I'm curious to see it and I hope Disney releases it on DVD. I agree with Soulquarian that it's probably best suited to the Treasures series, since what I've seen looks very entertaining yet lends itself to the establishment of a wider context for the movie.

    That said, it's the responsibility of each person to put a movie or book or sculpture in its proper context. Soulquarian's right that to ignore or downplay the racial stereotypes is shallow at best but I do think a work of art speaks for itself. People can figure things out on their own and learn not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    For example, when I've seen Gone With the Wind, a great book and terrific movie, with younger audiences, they usually come to straightforward conclusions on their own without lecturing or prompting, along the lines of "gee, it's a good thing we defeated slavery..."

    Breakfast at Tiffany's is another movie, with its dated, stereotypical depiction of an Oriental man (played by Mickey Rooney when whites played some Asian roles), that's brilliant in spite of the dated material. So the bottom line seems to be: don't sugarcoat the stereotype, bring it out in the open, assess a movie on its merits--and keep a proper context.
    Very well said!

  12. #42

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Yup, can o' worms.
    Soulquarian and I had a great discussion on this some months ago. While I don't necessarily agree with his opinion, I'll defend his right to vigourously defend his point of view. I would be more upset if Disney produced a PC version of the film and released that. Release the film with a short poignant disclaimer from a figure we admire, with a full documentary length treatment of the issue included.
    I don't agree whatsoever with "Triumph of the Will" but I have watched it in its entirety. I have no issues with it being available, at the least as an example of the evils and dangers we as humans are capable of. SotS airbrushes over some painful and ignorant history. But what a loss in repressing it.
    One of my favorite Christmas tales was "How Come Christmas". Similar treatment of a similar historical period. Try to find a copy today. But the themes and essential truth of the tale is one of the strongest calls for a unity of the meaning of Christmas I have ever heard, regardless to the racial voice of the text.

  13. #43

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    This makes me sad. My uncle actually has a direct copy from the film reels that played at the local theatre here in San Jose, CA. Somehow he knew someone who worked at the movie theatre that it was re released at and he copied it to a vhs. so it's not a crappy bootleg. its the real thing. its a great movie and i think it should be re released. i dont find it at all offensive. its based on a book. it makes me sad that people dont even know where brer fox and brer rabbit and all those great songs are from when they ride Splash Mountain. RE RELEASE IT!!!!
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  14. #44

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanaimobar View Post
    I don't agree whatsoever with "Triumph of the Will" but I have watched it in its entirety. I have no issues with it being available, at the least as an example of the evils and dangers we as humans are capable of. SotS airbrushes over some painful and ignorant history. But what a loss in repressing it.
    I agree. Withholding the film only creates MORE of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeavensLight View Post
    Having never seen Song of the South (and I won't sanction property theft), I'm curious to see it and I hope Disney releases it on DVD. I agree with Soulquarian that it's probably best suited to the Treasures series, since what I've seen looks very entertaining yet lends itself to the establishment of a wider context for the movie.

    That said, it's the responsibility of each person to put a movie or book or sculpture in its proper context. Soulquarian's right that to ignore or downplay the racial stereotypes is shallow at best but I do think a work of art speaks for itself. People can figure things out on their own and learn not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    For example, when I've seen Gone With the Wind, a great book and terrific movie, with younger audiences, they usually come to straightforward conclusions on their own without lecturing or prompting, along the lines of "gee, it's a good thing we defeated slavery..."

    Breakfast at Tiffany's is another movie, with its dated, stereotypical depiction of an Oriental man (played by Mickey Rooney when whites played some Asian roles), that's brilliant in spite of the dated material. So the bottom line seems to be: don't sugarcoat the stereotype, bring it out in the open, assess a movie on its merits--and keep a proper context.
    My problem with SOTS isn't even neccesarily with the film itself. A stereotypes is nothing more than a stupid generalization. Why should I be concerned with that? It has no effect on me if I do not emulate that stereotype.

    However, all too often the absence of truth allows stereotypes to be interpreted as fact. Does this mean that kids are going to be warped beyond comprehension upon viewing SOTS? Probably not, but we all know media portrayals have a strong ability to stick with us.

    I went to Dave & Buster's last night with my Scion tC club. While playing The Fast and the Furious, one of the race courses was called "L.A. The Ghetto), sure enough, someone nudged me and said "Hey Marlon, does that look familiar?". That comment would never have existed if the media image of young Blacks being gangsters wasn't so prevalent.

    If the history of the post civil war was common knowledge, I probably wouldn't bat an eye to the release. It isn't, and when you couple a film that parents could potentially show to their children without explaining the proper context, we have a problem. I still shudder when I see elementary school kids give speeches about the Great Abraham Lincoln who freed the slaves.

  15. #45

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    Re: Why Disney won't re-release ''Song of the South'' from its vaults -3/4/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    Someone could just as well say they can understand why a person who watches South Park would not see certain things in other films or shows.

    Personally, I think it's ridiculous to make such statements.
    I agree. Your statement is ridiculous. My statement was based on your opinion of South Park. South Park doesn't simply offend. It attempts to offend EVERYONE. That's difficult to do on a weekly basis. It's hard work. It would be easier if they just tried to offend one side.

    The definition of "tar baby," as a "a situation or problem from which it is virtually impossible to disentangle oneself," seems to be straight from the movie. Did it have this meaning before Br'er Rabbit got literally (cellulose-ly?) caught in a tar baby?

    Finally, SotS makes lots of white people look like racists. That's a generalization, too. Why aren't more white people protesting this film for that reason?
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