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  1. #136

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound View Post
    A better comparison is sexism depicted in POTC... There are people who still say that wench auction is sexist... and it is... but it also is ironic at the same time... Pirates are criminals after all...
    So you're saying that even though it may offend a few people, it's alright because it truely is for comical laughs and is a part of history? That is harmless fun that the creators had no intention of repulsing customers? You just proved my point...Thanks...

  2. #137

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Isn't it just wonderful to live in a world with the thought police?

  3. #138

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound View Post
    "If it doesn't offends me, therefore it is not offensive to everyone"

    Just doesn't wash with me...
    And I'm offended that you're offended. There's reason to find offense in everything and anything.

    This obcession about offending people is exactly why Der Fuehrer's Face, which attacks Nazism, needs a disclaimer. Criticism of Donald Duck being a Nutzi (yes, Nutzi.) is entirely baseless. The short staying out of the public's eye and only images of Donald Duck in Nazi-esque attire have attributed to the negative image of the short. Amazingly, Disney realized that public perception was not the case and opened up about the short, offering it for home purchase in Walt Disney Treasures: On The Front Lines. Selling Song of the South as Walt Disney Treasures: Song of the South is the perfect medium.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound View Post
    Tar Babies are a very taunting image - as taunting as Sambo as I have said before... Particularly if they can't talk and just sit there and just muck things up...
    The tar baby sits there and doesn't talk because it is an inanimate object. The tar baby is sticky because he is made out of tar. The tar baby comes from the original stories published by Harris.

  4. #139

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    >>Tar Babies are a very taunting image - as taunting as Sambo as I have said before... Particularly if they can't talk and just sit there and just muck things up...<<

    So you are saying that somehow the Tar Baby alone is supposed to represent blacks symbolically as propaganda (your term in earlier post)? That makes no sense at all in context of the film, since the hero of the tale, Br'er Rabbit, his nemesis Br'er Fox, and all the other critters in the cartoon are also characters derived from African folk tradition? And the teller of the story is a wise and sensitive protagonist, a black man.

  5. #140

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    The way I see it, Song of the South is offensive to some people and it always will be. However, just because it is offensive to some, doesn't mean it should not be available. Is it more offensive than Dumbo with the crow characters? Is it more offensive than Peter Pan with the Indians?

    Why is it that I can go buy a movie like Gone with the Wind, but not Song of the South? I can go to a store and buy rap music with worse things in it, or a movie like Soul Plane. Those things are offensive to some people too, but I can buy them if I want.

    Personally I have always been offended by the movie Carousel, with its depictions of domestic violence being ok. Sure it has some good songs and choreography, but I always get angry when that movie is on, so I don't watch it. Another movie that offends me is Grease. Grease depicts the perfect school year, this kind of nostalgia for the past. However, in the movie the nerd character is pushed around and treated like crap. It also says to me that if you follow the rules and act nice, you are no fun and a square. I'm a nerd. I did not appreciate being pushed around or made fun of. But in Grease its all in good fun. Bullying nerds is A-OK.

    The point I am trying to make is that if we were to ban every movie, book, CD, work of art, TV show, play, video game or whatever that offends someone, our walls and bookselves would be bare. There'd be a blank screen on our TVs, computer monitors, and movie screens. There would be nothing on the stage at the local theater. Everything offends someone.

  6. #141

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    To sum up my feelings on the subject - no one should tell others what they can and cannot see.

    While someone has the right to be offended, I also have a right to not be offended.

    That is their choosing, and mine.

    I don't like certain books and films and feel they are detrimental to some folks, but I'm not about to say that they shouldn't be on the shelves.

    It's a free country, and people should be allowed to make up their own minds.

  7. #142

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneyphile View Post
    To sum up my feelings on the subject - no one should tell others what they can and cannot see.

    While someone has the right to be offended, I also have a right to not be offended.

    That is their choosing, and mine.

    I don't like certain books and films and feel they are detrimental to some folks, but I'm not about to say that they shouldn't be on the shelves.

    It's a free country, and people should be allowed to make up their own minds.
    Hear Hear!

  8. #143

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneyphile View Post
    To sum up my feelings on the subject - no one should tell others what they can and cannot see.

    While someone has the right to be offended, I also have a right to not be offended.

    That is their choosing, and mine.

    I don't like certain books and films and feel they are detrimental to some folks, but I'm not about to say that they shouldn't be on the shelves.

    It's a free country, and people should be allowed to make up their own minds.
    And that's the way, ah-huh ah-huh, I like it........ah-huh

  9. #144

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones View Post
    The film is really very sweet - the tale of a bond between a black man and a white boy and the power of storytelling. Actually, having the film available would help repair this phantom damage to the reputation of the company - and Walt Disney himself - by showing that the real film is not racist at all.
    You keep saying that despite me repeatedly giving you the purpose of the Uncle Tom Stereotype.

    The Uncle Remus character is so closely lined to the stereotype that it can't be refuted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    one lone voice crying and venting incessantly about this wonderful movie, would better be used to cry out
    about todays productions, rather than twist the facts
    about Song of the South.
    Twisting what facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter13 View Post
    What about Pocahontus? I mean just because they were indians, and the settlers were white men they called eachother savages...
    In Pochantas, you get a definite feeling that the "white men" are wrong, and represent evil. You get no such feeling on SotS, except for the poor white family. Even then, they just bully the krich white kid. Pochahantas, while still being largely a product of fantasy, is far closer to reality than SotS.

    I mean, c'mon, people are getting in a fuss over some silly crows and a funny narrator. What about Dumbo getting drunk? The catapillar smoking? Ponchito shooting off pistols? "Eskimo" is a racial slur and I'm sure there's at least one Disney short with a character saying it.
    So, blacks shouldn't have been offended when characters were in blackface either? I do not understand why you bring up characters smoking or shooting. This is not about a percieved wrong. The stereotype of african americans has always been considered wrong by african americans. Even when such a thing was "common place" in America.

    What about the original theatrical release of Aladdin where, in the song Arabian Nights, they had to replace a segment were it said "where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face"?
    Perfect example. It was taken out was it not?

    While we're at it, the movie Hercules is based on an ancient religion that is now turned into a marketing cartoon.
    I don't see where you're going with this.

    There's also that infamous Donald short with Nazis.
    It was a propoganda film that actually made fun of Nazis.

    And how appropriate is it that they're called "Dwarfs" when the much prefered term is "little people"?

    Woah, don't even get me started with involving the church in the Hunchback of Notre Dame and Frollo lusting for Esmerelda. Satanism could also be interpreted with the constant presence of Hades, The Evil Queen, Maleficent, Ursula, Chernabog, etc. Explain why it is that Disney tries to expose us to such wretched things as Tarzan's nipples or the numerous topless beings in Fantasia? And, c'mon, SEEING MINNIE'S UNDERGARMENTS!?!?
    You're going completely off topic. The problem many people have with SotS is the misrepresentation of truth. It's not merely being offended for the sake of being offended popular to popular belief. As a society, our opinions are shaped by what we see in the media. That's why people who don't live in California think we just walk around bumping into movie stars all day, or that states in the midwest live in vast expanses of corn and potato crops. It's the reason why we have racial profiling at the airport for any who looks middle eastern, and why I got a gun pulled on me by a police officer for looking "suspicious".

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones View Post
    So you want the information removed, not shared? Hypocritical.
    The problem is that the information is not available. At least the truth about what really happened during that time. It's quite clear from this very thread. There have been countless reports/articles/studies/etc. that specifically show the Uncle Tom stereotype in SotS to be engineered to get the public to not look at racism, but the "kind old black man who loves his white family". It's been decades since the film's release, and people are still using the purpose of the stereotype as the very mean's to defend the film!

    Trendy socialism should not preclude a democracy from watching a 60 year old Hollywood film freely and without guilt. It's best to debate when fully informed - - IE: having actually seen it, which is not possible now. Free communication is essential - - or even the best intentioned can become the next Stalin.
    How can (general) you be informed when (general) you don't know the TRUE history? It's just not taught in public schools.

    Besides, "Song of the South" isn't racist. It's only your perception.
    Someone could just as well say that it's your perception that the film isn't. I don't think it was made on purpose to be racist, but I can't believe some people can look at the film and deny that there is anything wrong at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    The fables and folklore of slaves in the American South are an important part of our collective literary heritage, and these stories and this culture deserve to be preserved and celebrated. Walt Disney was doing exactly that when he made this film. It was socially-progressive for its time in the same way Joel Chandler Harris' original writings were.
    Joel Chandler Harris' writings weren't the originals. He essentially took fables about slavery, whites, and blacks, watered them down, added characters (tar baby), and presented them as a southern book of virtues. Walt further watered them down and made them about how a kid deals with a local bully.

    The film is indirectly, but essentially, about ideas of race. Uncle Remus is made a very human hero whose wisdom and pure heart are meant to inspire audiences. Walt Disney patterned much of his life on this fictitious storyteller, and the slaves who embodied him. And, I don't understand how anyone is unable to see the beauty in that fact.
    Since everyone keeps saying this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia/Ferris State University
    The Tom caricature portrays Black men as faithful, happily submissive servants. The Tom caricature, as with the Mammy Caricature, was born in ante-bellum America in the defense of slavery. How could slavery be wrong, argued its proponents, if Black servants, males (Toms) and females (Mammies) were contented, loyal servants? The Tom is presented as a smiling, wide-eyed, dark skinned server: fieldworker, cook, butler, porter, or waiter. Unlike the ****, the Tom is portrayed as a dependable worker, eager to serve. Unlike the Brute, the Tom is docile and non-threatening to Whites. The Tom is often old, physically weak, psychologically dependent on Whites for approval. In his book, Toms, Coons, Mulattoes, Mammies, & Bucks, Donald Bogle summarizes the depiction of Toms in movies:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia/Ferris State University

    Poitier's Toms are best described as "Enlightened Toms." In many of his films he is the smartest, most articulate character -- and, more importantly, the one who delves into the philosophical issues: egalitarianism, humanitarianism, and altruism. Moreover, he acts upon these philosophical musings. He is a paragon of saintly virtue, sacrificing for others, who, not coincidentally, are often Whites.
    Another trait of "Toms" was the way they treated their White family. Both the Mammy and Tom characters often spent most of their time with the white family, and loved the children. They would usually neglect the black children, and most interactions with black children were no where near as sweet as they were with the white kids.

    For those of you that have seen that film, does that not happen with Uncle Remus? One of the only times he talks to the little black boy is to scold him...

    If someone has a problem with something in "Song of the South", I'd like him or her to suggest an alternative because the allegedly demeaning portrayals of black people in the film are anything but. These portrayals are, furthermore, integral to the artistic integrity of the work. The dialects and other verisimilitude allow audiences to appreciate the poignancy of this part of America's history, which forms the background for the story, itself. In which way, exactly, is the film insensitive? Does Uncle Remus, who is not a slave, have to curse the white people who employ him and who were Abolitionists, themselves?
    See above.

    If people know the spirit in which "Song of the South" was created, it has the potential to be as vital, today, for combating racism (the irrational belief in the superiority of one "race" over another) as the film was back in the 1940's. And, there is a great opportunity here for The Walt Disney Company to educate people about how the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences made progress towards instituting greater inclusiveness with this film, while the American South remained backwards in its discrimination against and mistreatment of James Baskett.
    WALT was no as forward of a thinker as you believe. Many cartoons were created during his lifetime that were flat out racist, including several shorts with Mickey, Minnie, and Pluto in Blackface. On the opening day of Disneyland, three blacks can be seen. Aunt Jemima, a little dancing black boy, and Sammy Davis Jr. When the park was open, Walt hired kids who looked "American" i.e. young, blue eyed, blonde-haired, pretty, and white

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice's Wonderland View Post
    I would love the chance to see Song of the South. I absolutely love the Uncle Remus stories by Joel Chandler Harris. My dad and I used to read them together and he has always said that Disney did a good job of translating the stories in the movie. So if the books are still in print, and the real ones, not the abridged or edited ones, are indeed still available, what is the difference between having that choice to go and buy the book or the choice to watch the movie?
    How many people have read those books? How many people's only knowledge of the Uncle Remus stories is SotS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter13 View Post
    Are you trying to say that just because it is in resemblance of a black person, it is offensive? Wow.... It's just some dummy. A trap to catch brer rabbit. Kind of like how if a character was to say "Please don't drop the balls", some people with get immature and think in a pervertive way. In Aladdin, one could think of the lines in A Whole New World "hold your breath, it gets better" and "relieving" as something entirely different. What about Ursula calling Ariel "Sweet Lips", "Darling", "Angle Fish"? It almost seems as if she wanted more then the mermaid's voice, right?
    Dodge recently had a commercial where a literal female fairy was made fun of by a man. The guys said "little fairy", and she turned him into the opposite of what he was, which was ultra sweet preppy guy. Some gay rights groups found this to be offensive. I didn't, and I only read as I believed it was intended, but I respect the people who were offended.

    In truth, all that is truely there is a plan to capture a bunny, a romantic carpet ride, and a power-hungry squid trying to take over the throne. I'm not sure what causes you to think that it's so racist, apparently you need to actually watch the film, but there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with the tar baby. Would you rather they make it a "grass baby"? Then Brer Rabbit will get a nasty grassbur and fall over in pain, because that will make much more sense. I mean, what's the deal? There's nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, (once again, nothing) that could be racist except for the person's views. Not saying that you are a bigimist, just that you look for the bad things in this movie, where others don't.
    See above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonballer View Post
    The way I see it, Song of the South is offensive to some people and it always will be. However, just because it is offensive to some, doesn't mean it should not be available. Is it more offensive than Dumbo with the crow characters? Is it more offensive than Peter Pan with the Indians?
    It's not really even the "offensive" material that bothers me. It's the attitude so many people have about the film. The implied notions that if you have a problem with the film, you're thinking to hard, too uptight, or are easily offended. Despite numerous examples of the problems listed in SotS, the majority refuse to see anything wrong.

    If everyone was able to tell the difference to between a stereotype and reality I think the majority of societal problems would go away. We can't, or at least we don't try. I agree that censorship is not the answer, but clearly misinformation is the standard in reference to this film and the real history it paints over.

    Why is it that I can go buy a movie like Gone with the Wind, but not Song of the South? I can go to a store and buy rap music with worse things in it, or a movie like Soul Plane. Those things are offensive to some people too, but I can buy them if I want.
    None of those things involve Disney. Of course there are worse things out there, but we all see Disney products as harmless. I was quite shocked to see the amount of material that Disney had in its past that were racially insensitive. Regardless of the fact that "everyone was doing it", I always saw Disney as a visionary. A person who didn't follow everyone else. The Walt Disney Treasures Line was an eye opener for me, and a great opportunity to see reality.

    The point I am trying to make is that if we were to ban every movie, book, CD, work of art, TV show, play, video game or whatever that offends someone, our walls and bookselves would be bare. There'd be a blank screen on our TVs, computer monitors, and movie screens. There would be nothing on the stage at the local theater. Everything offends someone.
    True, but when something is one of the ONLY depictiona of a very sensitive and important era in our nation's history, and is largely the first and only chance most people will review the time period, it's less about being offended and more about the collective editing of history.

    Just like how we're brainwashed to think Christopher Columbus was a hero...
    Last edited by Soulquarian; 04-14-2007 at 10:52 AM.

  10. #145

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    >>You keep saying that despite me repeatedly giving you the purpose of the Uncle Tom Stereotype. The Uncle Remus character is so closely lined to the stereotype that it can't be refuted. <<

    Uncle Remus in no way evokes Uncle Tom in character motivation or behavior. Is the word "Uncle" a problem?

    See the movie. It's quite charming. Or then again, choose not to - - you might hate it! That freedom of choice is what democracy is all about!

    But in order for there to be freedom of choice, we must have access to intellectual material and art.

    Surely you are for freedom of choice.

  11. #146

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    The problem is that the information is not available. At least the truth about what really happened during that time. It's quite clear from this very thread. There have been countless reports/articles/studies/etc. that specifically show the Uncle Tom stereotype in SotS to be engineered to get the public to not look at racism, but the "kind old black man who loves his white family". It's been decades since the film's release, and people are still using the purpose of the stereotype as the very mean's to defend the film!

    Another trait of "Toms" was the way they treated their White family. Both the Mammy and Tom characters often spent most of their time with the white family, and loved the children. They would usually neglect the black children, and most interactions with black children were no where near as sweet as they were with the white kids.

    For those of you that have seen that film, does that not happen with Uncle Remus? One of the only times he talks to the little black boy is to scold him...

    WALT was no as forward of a thinker as you believe. Many cartoons were created during his lifetime that were flat out racist, including several shorts with Mickey, Minnie, and Pluto in Blackface. On the opening day of Disneyland, three blacks can be seen. Aunt Jemima, a little dancing black boy, and Sammy Davis Jr. When the park was open, Walt hired kids who looked "American" i.e. young, blue eyed, blonde-haired, pretty, and white
    You really should see the film, Soulquarian, because it's much more carefully made than you've probably been led to believe. Uncle Remus is such a sympathetic character and he has such wisdom that he reminds me of Mr. Disney, himself.

    I think quite a few people will respond, as I did, when they see the film and wonder what all the commotion has been about. When Harris wrote these stories during the Reconstruction period, he was wanting to present harmonious relationships between whites and blacks in the American South because he wanted to move society beyond slavery, not return to it. These transcriptions of the orally-transmitted fables were meant to garner respect for the humanity and culture of the former slaves.

    Much of your last paragraph is factually-incorrect. Disney never discriminated on the basis of race in the hiring of Disneyland employees, but he did cast them according to archetypal, stock-character roles that fit the show, i.e. indigenous tribespeople navigating the canoes; Polynesians dancing the hula at the Tahitian Terrace; etc. While there have been caricatures in animation by Disney, Warner Bros., and other studios that do involve physical characteristics usually attributed to so-called "races" of people, there has never been anything classically racist about Disney productions (at least those of which I'm aware and which were produced by Disney, itself, and not under license). Walt Disney never put forth the idea that there is a superiority of one "race" over another. And, he, in point of fact, created several works of art that say just the opposite.

  12. #147

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones View Post
    >>You keep saying that despite me repeatedly giving you the purpose of the Uncle Tom Stereotype. The Uncle Remus character is so closely lined to the stereotype that it can't be refuted. <<

    Uncle Remus in no way evokes Uncle Tom in character motivation or behavior. Is the word "Uncle" a problem?
    So you're saying Uncle Remus displays none of the following:
    • Is the wisest character in the film
    • Endeared by the white family
    • Spends little to no time with the blacks
    • Treats the little white boy better than the blacks
    • Is elderly
    • Loyal to the White family
    See the movie. It's quite charming. Or then again, choose not to - - you might hate it! That freedom of choice is what democracy is all about!
    I have a copy.

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    You really should see the film, Soulquarian, because it's much more carefully made than you've probably been led to believe. Uncle Remus is such a sympathetic character and he has such wisdom that he reminds me of Mr. Disney, himself.
    I own it.

    Much of your last paragraph is factually-incorrect. Disney never discriminated on the basis of race in the hiring of Disneyland employees, but he did cast them according to archetypal, stock-character roles that fit the show, i.e. indigenous tribespeople navigating the canoes; Polynesians dancing the hula at the Tahitian Terrace; etc. While there have been caricatures in animation by Disney, Warner Bros., and other studios that do involve physical characteristics usually attributed to so-called "races" of people, there has never been anything classically racist about Disney productions (at least those of which I'm aware and which were produced by Disney, itself, and not under license). Walt Disney never put forth the idea that there is a superiority of one "race" over another. And, he, in point of fact, created several works of art that say just the opposite.
    So you must not have seen the figaro shorts with the Mammy stereotype. How do you explain the shorts with Blackface?

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    So you're saying Uncle Remus displays none of the following:
    • Is the wisest character in the film
    • Endeared by the white family
    • Spends little to no time with the blacks
    • Treats the little white boy better than the blacks
    • Is elderly
    • Loyal to the White family
    I have a copy.
    Why is being wise, smart, and endearing not a good thing?

    Doesn't Remus' humanity argue against slavery and racism?

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    Re: Song of the South to be released?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Why is being wise, smart, and endearing not a good thing?

    Doesn't Remus' humanity argue against slavery and racism?
    PI, you have to read the links I provde...

    http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/tom/

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