'The Princess and The Frog'

[sailerm]

I'm sure they will, it only makes sense, how long it sticks around will be determined by how well the film does.

[RedHandedJill]

I'm looking forward to this movie. I watched the trailer today and it looks really good. I think it's about time that they had an African American character in a Disney film. Now that i think about it, have they ever featured an African American in any of their movies before? I hope that people are receptive to this new addition.

[sailerm]

Yes, Disney has featured people of color in their films, but many of the portrayals have not been in what current society would consider a positive light. Some characters have been completely edited out of current versions of films (Fantasia), other films have been kept in the vaults entirely (Song of the South).

Other times the fact that characters are not human can completely side step race altogether (Jungle Book, Lion King)

[Retrocool]

Originally Posted by sailerm

Disney has no more and no less than a similar track record for the use of culturally accepted stereotypes (at the time any given feature is released) than any other studio (for better or worse), but have also been trend setters for non-white casting (on screen and voice over)

Well, that's debatable, but I wouldn't necessarily go as far as you have in praising Disney for any sort of forward-thinking in regards to diversity in casting. Had some of the original Mouseketeers in the 1950s been African American, for example, I'd most definitely be praising them for their progressiveness, but we know that Walt wasn't like that and was, in fact, a Nixon Republican who worked with the FBI (and J. Edgar Hoover was no lover of Black people). It wasn't until the 1970s at the earliest that Disney began treating non-Caucasian actors as equal to Caucasian actors, or non-Caucasian characters as anything more than sidekicks (the exceptions to this, if any, only proving the standard). Disney's slightly more obvious in its diversity in the now-post-Eisner era, but the impression I get is that Disney makes more of a show about its diversity simply because it's about hitting all the market demographics (and cashing in on them) than anything else.

Originally Posted by sailerm

It depends on where you are raised. Color of skin separates more (for lack of a better term) in some parts of the U.S., but in many other parts of the world, skin color takes a back seat to cultural and religious differences

I beg to differ. Southern California likes to pat itself on the back for its supposed racial progressiveness, but where did riots break out in 1992, and why? Chicago and New York are hardly better when it comes to race relations. A lot of people like to assume it's all the South that exhibits racism, but in fact, it's most of the country, in some form or fashion, that's infected with the disease.

By the way, it's not so much skin color in and of itself. Skin color and cultural differences are usually tied together, or at least are assumed to be.

Originally Posted by sailerm

I disagree, I think it happens a lot. I am the product of a inter-cultural marriage, and my children are a product of a mixed marriage. So are a lot of the people I know currently, because I live in a non metro rural area, Where Anglo, Mexican and Native Americans live and work together. We live the ideal, rather than pat ourselves on the back for living the ideal.

And that's lovely that that's your personal situation, and even regional, but I've lived in Colorado as well, and there's a deep and long history between Anglo, Mexican, and Native American living and working together there. At the same time, Colorado was once, not that long ago, one of the biggest Klan states in the nation. It's also notable that there's a very small African American community there (compared with other populous Western states), mostly in the Denver area (Oscar winning actress Hattie McDaniel grew up and began her career in Denver, as a matter of fact). Sadly, Colorado's overall track record of race relations between Black and white, however, is hardly as ideal as you seem to imply it is between Anglo, Mexican, and Native American (and I'm betting the impressions of the relationship on the Mexican and Native American sides are not, overall, quite as sunny as you might believe them to be).

Keep in mind, your personal and regional situation may be one thing (and it's great that you have that), but that sort of approach is hardly universal. That's all I'm saying. Many people and organizations and companies are giving lip service to diversity initiatives and efforts at inclusiveness, but not following through, or following through weakly. It's important that not only we, as individuals, practice what we preach, but also that we hold public and private entities accountable for following through on diversity and inclusiveness endeavors. We have to make a habit of this, so that no one in our society is slighted, left out, forgotten, or ignored.

Originally Posted by sailerm

First voice actors do count, mainly because it proves that it doesn't matter what an actor looks like to give a great performance, and even though Lion King was lions dancing and singing kitty cats it was a decidedly HUMAN story.

LOL, well, I didn't mean that voice actors don't count PERIOD , just that the ethnicity of a voice actor, insofar as the character being voiced is concerned, does not always correllate. And although it can be argued that The Lion King has a human story (and the animal characters are clearly anthropomorphized), with the possible exception of Rafiki none are portrayed, vocally, as specifically African (and thus Black), despite the various African character names and usage of Swahili in the script. In other words, character-wise, The Lion King is not about African people, nor is it an animated retelling of a traditional African folk tale. Its roots are not in African culture in the way that Cinderella and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and Pinocchio and The Sword in the Stone and Sleeping Beauty and Peter Pan and Alice in Wonderland and Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid are rooted in European culture, and that Aladdin is rooted in Arabic culture and Mulan is rooted in Asian (specifically Chinese) culture.

Originally Posted by sailerm

As far as the small amount of small non-European characters, that was came off the top of my head in two seconds. I'm sure there are more, people that watch more TV and Films than I can fill me in.

I've seen quite a large number of Disney films and TV shows, and really, I'm telling you, when it comes to people of color in them, you have to hunt for them, seriously (or you'll notice them right away, because they're exceptions to the rule). The general reputation of Disney in many a mind of color is that Disney pretty much tells stories by and about white people. Now, these days, they're getting better at inclusiveness, little by little, film by film, but up until now, African Americans have, by and large, felt left out when it comes to Disney.

Originally Posted by sailerm

Because, by trying to vault oneself by saying 'look how wonderful we are' by drawing attention to skin color only

But that's not what it's about. Again, it's a CELEBRATION about finally being acknowledged, in the same way that African Americans have been overjoyed at finally having a Black President of the United States. It's a "hurrah!" that says "look how far we've come! Isn't it great?!? We're a people on the move and getting there!"

And the way you come across sounds like so much sour grapes. Like "how dare they be happy about the fact that the characters are Black? That's beside the point! The point is that the animation is hand drawn! Grrrrr! People need to celebrate what I tell them to celebrate, not what they want to celebrate!"

Originally Posted by sailerm

demontrates how short sighted one can be if that is the only trait nessasary to sell a product, in this case this movie. What we should get is 'COME SEE THIS GREAT FILM' what we seem to be getting is 'COME SEE THIS FILM - IT HAS AN ETHNIC LEAD',

No, that's not it at all. It's Black people being happily surprised by saying "hey, now they're including US!" I think you have no idea how left out so many non-white people feel in the world when it comes to being portrayed in a positive light in the major media, particularly in the movies.

Originally Posted by sailerm

and from the African American press

You do realize, of course, that the African American press is pretty diverse itself, right? African Americans are like any people, and are not part of a monolithic hive mind.

Originally Posted by sailerm

we seem to be getting 'HEY, THE PRINCE IS WHITE?'.

And although I, too, believe in and promote interracial relationships, at the same time, I recognize the cultural source of this question, and I think it's very much a valid question to be raised, because interracial romantic pairings are still fairly new in the overall history of race relations between African Americans and European Americans, and are still, in many respects, a hotly debated issue, for a variety of reasons both good and bad, primarily amongst African Americans (and there's a wide variety of opinion on the topic). A lot of it boils down to how Black men are perceived in the public mind, and for the very first African American Disney princess to have a non-African American prince kinda implies that Black men are somehow less worthy of a Black woman than non-Black men. And that sort of implication, even if it is completely unintentional on the part of the filmmakers (and I believe that it is), can be very damaging (and there's a long history in this country of denigrating and dehumanizing Black men specifically - remember the photos from the Civil Rights era of Black men carrying sandwich board signs that said "I AM A MAN"? There was a very good reason that phrase was written on those signs, and those reasons are deep and very intimately intertwined with the history of this country. You can't gloss over that or pretend that it's not there, and it's wrong to criticize those who are on the receiving end of such actions, just because it doesn't affect you personally.)

Originally Posted by sailerm

The skin color is a major distraction to market Disney's first hand drawn film in years.

I beg your pardon? "The skin color is a major distraction to market"? This comment would seem to imply that if the film was NOT about an African American character, that there'd be no issue and the film would be more easily marketable. That would imply that Disney should stick to making and marketing films about white people, because making and marketing films about Black people is "difficult" and "troublesome." Do you even hear what you're saying?

Originally Posted by sailerm

We have better traits to celebrate than how much melanin you or I have.

OK, I think it needs to be made clear that skin color or the amount of melanin is not the issue. The issue is ethnicity and ethnic representation in popular entertainment. And to date, Disney entertainment has been, by and large, about European and European-descended peoples and their cultures and folk tales and traditions and beliefs, and very little about non-European peoples, cultures, folk tales, traditions, and beliefs, except as seen through the eyes and ears of said European/European-descended peoples.

Take this little blog article and its two comments as a typical example - Newly Natural Blog Archive The Princess and the Frog

(The blog is primarily about African American hair care.)

Is anyone else super excited about this new Disney movie? I have always loved the 2D Disney genre, but have noticed that it always lacked a black princess…even though they had a Arabian, Chinese, and Native American princess.

How does this relate to hair, you ask? Well, I always think that it’s very important to a little girl’s self image to have role models for beauty that they can attain. While I know that the other Disney princesses were all beautiful on the inside as well as the outside, young children can’t help but focus on the outside too. It’s human nature.

Ariel and Pocahontas specifically come to mind. I remember thinking how I wish my hair would whip around in the wind like Pocahontas or twirl and float in the water like Ariel. Maybe if I had seen a princess like this once in awhile: [EDIT: emphasis mine - retrocool]

I would not have coveted something I could never have (even with relaxed hair, my hair would never look like those princesses). Well maybe I could with a wig, but who wants to have wind whipping through their wig unless you’ve got that sucker super glued to your head.

I really love the other Disney toons and hope that this one lives up to the standards of The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast as far as plot and music are concerned.

And the two comments to the article -

Prettysunshyne
3:37 pm on January 27th, 2009
Thank u so much for posting this. I have a little sister who is 5 yrs old and she loves disney movies…I get a little annoyed because I never see a character that looks like her…she is beginning to ask questions about skin complexions and why some ppl are browner than others, etc. It’s going to be nice to finally see a character that she can relate to more.


Roxy
4:39 am on May 14th, 2009 I know exactly what you mean about hair. I’m light-skinned, yet I have very curly hair. I never saw any Disney princess with spiral curls like mine, and fashion trends also often tend to straight hair and ignore real curls (I don’t mean fake salon spirals, a la Jessica Simpson.) I’m excited about this new movie, yet the latest sketches of this princess show her with her hair in tight a bun! Ah, the old curly-hair “fix”— shove it in a bun, hide it from sight! I’m very curious how they’ll market dolls for this movie. I’ve never had a curly-haired doll whose hair I could comb…

The simple fact of the matter is that people want to be able to see themselves reflected in popular entertainment, at all levels.

Just as you may not be able to directly relate, on a deep emotional level, to the tears and joyous celebration of African Americans' ecstatic enthusiasm of Barack Obama's Presidential election and inauguration, it's likely that you may not be able to directly relate to the happy-yet-tempered reception of the film in the African American community. Many a Black mother will be heaving big sighs of relief because now they can finally buy their daughters dolls that look like them, now they finally can have a Disney animated film they can bond together with, now there finally will be a popular film that other little Black girls will be able to connect to each other with - things that may not seem like much outside African American culture, but which are huge inside it (just ask Tyler Perry how loyal Black women are as audiences; then ask Lions Gate Films how much money they've made off Tyler Perry's movies).

It makes perfect sense that you might not be able to relate - you're not Black. And no, that's not a skin color or melanin issue, that's a cultural issue. America is not all one culture where the only difference is skin color. If it was that easy, we'd have worked out our differences as a society a long, long time ago.

While, yes, I'm happy that Disney has also brought back hand drawn animation (and although it is good news, Disney also has a long history of making hand drawn animation), to infer that celebrating that fact is somehow more important than celebrating the fact that for the first time in its history, Disney has an African American Princess lead character in an animated film, is just insulting.

If people want to celebrate this first-time-ever phenomenon, who are you to rain on their parade?

[Angie_Duke]

Originally Posted by RedHandedJill

I'm looking forward to this movie. I watched the trailer today and it looks really good. I think it's about time that they had an African American character in a Disney film. Now that i think about it, have they ever featured an African American in any of their movies before? I hope that people are receptive to this new addition.

Yes. In Hunchback of Notre Dame (Esmerelda), Atlantis (Dr. Sweet and the mechanic girl) and Hercules (the muses). I assume you meant just animated because lots of live action Disney films have had African American charcaters too.

People are complaing because the multi-billion dolar Princess franchise has yet to fetaure an African American character until now.

[ALIASd]

the teaser one-sheet

[sailerm]

Retrocool. I think you and I are approaching the same answer from two different points when we talk about skin color and cultural differences. I don't want to come off as sour grapes, that's not my point.

My point is that Disney makes films for the broadest possible audience. In the last few years they have been a lot more inclusive to create films that feature non-whites as lead characters. Mulan, Aladdin, Pochahontas, but the marketing focus of those films has never been 'look how progressive we are', mainly becuase even though the stories are set in non-euopean lands, the leads were still pretty white bread. To be as inclusive of the largest possible market.

I'm Mexican, with Spanish as my first language. Disney has yet to make a film with a strong possitive Latino lead. Do I care? No, not really, because I want Disney to make good films, not just pander to me. I would be insulted to have them come out and make a film and have them market it by saying 'We thought you needed a film where the Mexican is the hero', So we could give you a possitive image of yourself'.

Again. I hope this film is great.

[ALIASd]

At tonight's 'The Little Mermaid' 20th Anniversary reunion event:
'The Little Mermaid' 20th Anniversary reunion event 5/21

that film's co-directors John Musker and Ron Clements also spoke about their current film in production, 'The Princess and the Frog.' Among the many things they shared was the thrill of returning to hand-drawn animation (the same view shared by the evening's panel including Andreas Deja and entire audience) and the excitement of having John Lasseter at the helm. They talked about the new trailer and promised that the colors and richness of textures in the film will be so much more defined and spectacular.

I had the opportunity to meet and chat with WDAS animators Reuben Aquino (Ursula), Duncan Marjoribanks (Sebastian) and Mark Henn (Ariel). They are all currently working on the new film with Aquino animating Tiana's parents Eudora (Oprah Winfrey) and James (Terrence Howard), Marjoribanks - Eli 'Big Daddy' LaBouff (John Goodman) and Henn - Tiana (Anika Noni Rose).

Henn has brought life to Ariel, Belle and Mulan. We talked about the new trailer and the recent test screening at The Bridge, one that was so well-received they compared it to the first one in 1989 for 'TLM'. He also told me he's having a great time working on the film and that Tiana is a truly great ("lots of spirit, attitude and intelligence") character to work on.

[Retrocool]

Originally Posted by Angie_Duke

Yes. In Hunchback of Notre Dame (Esmerelda),

Esmeralda was African American? Uh, you sure about that? African American? Not Romani (Gypsy)? Not all brown skinned people are of African descent, y'know. And other than the character being voiced by Demi Moore in the American version of the film, what exactly was American about Esmeralda? You do realize, of course, that the story begins in 1482, 10 years before Columbus even left Spain. You know that, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmeral..._of_Notre_Dame)

La Esméralda (born Agnes) is a fictional character in Victor Hugo's 1831 novel The Hunchback of Notre Dame (or Notre Dame de Paris). She is a French gypsy girl (near the end of the book, it is revealed that her biological mother was a French woman).

Originally Posted by Angie_Duke

Atlantis (Dr. Sweet and the mechanic girl)

Well, I think it's safe to say that Dr. Sweet is an African American character (not sure how a MECHANICAL girl is considered African American, exactly, seeing as how she's not even human, but anyway), but were these the LEAD characters in the film? No. They were supporting characters. The question wasn't "has Disney ever HAD any African American characters in any film?" but "has Disney ever FEATURED an African American character in any of their films before?" And the answer is "no," this is the first time an African American human character is the lead character in a Disney animated film.

Originally Posted by Angie_Duke

and Hercules (the muses).

Again, supporting characters, not lead characters. The question isn't whether or not Disney has ever shown Black people in its films (they did so way back in 1941, in Dumbo), but whether they've ever had any African American lead character before.

Originally Posted by Angie_Duke

I assume you meant just animated because lots of live action Disney films have had African American charcaters too.

Oh? Really? "Lots"? Which ones, please? Name 10 or 20 African American lead characters in Disney live action films. Considering Disney's prolific live action output over the past 50 years, that should be pretty easy to do.

Originally Posted by Angie_Duke

People are complaing because the multi-billion dolar Princess franchise has yet to fetaure an African American character until now.

You think people don't have a right to be irritated, annoyed, and upset by that sort of inequity? I'm sure if you felt ignored and left out enough times, eventually you'd become pretty irritated too.

[Retrocool]

Originally Posted by sailerm

My point is that Disney makes films for the broadest possible audience. In the last few years they have been a lot more inclusive to create films that feature non-whites as lead characters. Mulan, Aladdin, Pochahontas, but the marketing focus of those films has never been 'look how progressive we are', mainly becuase even though the stories are set in non-euopean lands, the leads were still pretty white bread. To be as inclusive of the largest possible market.

I'm Mexican, with Spanish as my first language. Disney has yet to make a film with a strong possitive Latino lead. Do I care? No, not really, because I want Disney to make good films, not just pander to me. I would be insulted to have them come out and make a film and have them market it by saying 'We thought you needed a film where the Mexican is the hero', So we could give you a possitive image of yourself'.

Again. I hope this film is great.

I hear you on this, and I agree. Obviously nobody wants to be pandered to merely to score some political and marketing brownie points, and if that's how this film comes off (and it may to some), it's possible that the result could be less-than-enthusiastic audience response, at least from some corners of the moviegoing market.

Still, Disney can and should continue to make every effort to not just be inclusive in its overall casting and storytelling viewpoint approach, but also continue to seek out stories from a variety of cultural sources, which this nation is so very rich in having.

I think of animated films like Persepolis, and I think, man, why couldn't Disney do films like that? (Or at least something in that vein.)

YouTube - PERSEPOLIS

And yet, with this film, it's yet another adaptation of a European fairy tale, transplanted to a fantasy version of New Orleans, with a Moroccan prince who has a French accent and an Indian name. Something's a bit amiss, despite all the pretty colors and animation FX.

I wonder, though; why couldn't they have done something really original, like adapt Mufaro's Beautiful Daughters to the animated form? Too many Black people?

[Retrocool]

Originally Posted by ALIASd

the teaser one-sheet

That.....is beautiful.

[ALIASd]

From the El Capitan Theatre schedule, more details to follow!

[Queentitania19]

I saw the trailer before Up. I'm not so sure about this movie now. I wish I knew more about it.

[Angie_Duke]

Wow Rertrocool, that's all I can say.

I'd rather Disney make good movies than PC garbage to pander to some vocal minority who can be bothered to appreciate a good movie when they see it. Why does Disney HAVE to have "LEAD" characters of a particular race if the story doesn't call for it? Mulan takes place in China so it has a Chinese lead, Cinderella in Europe has a European lead. This movies are popular not because of their main character's skin colour but because of the quality for their story. Kida was a main character who's skin colour was certainly dark to say the least, but the movie wasn't a flop or hit just because she was. I'd be more irritated with sub-par films than a lack of "recognition" from Disney. They could make a movie with a gay male lead, but if it sucks I won't like it, plain and simple.

Also, smart ***, I know "America" didn't exsit when Hunchback took place, but that doens't change the fact that Esmerelda is black has has a very 90s contemparoary American voice and personality. Aladdin is Arab for sure, but he's as white ghost for the whole movie (and his voice is done by an actor from Full House too because that show was SO not white).

Disney will make a movie because it feels it will make money by having some sort fo mass appeal. Persepolis is not that kind of subject matter that would fit with the "Disney" name. That does not mean Disney, like Pixar of late cannot handle mature themes, but really, there's a limit. A good story can come from any number of sources (even out of someone's own imagination like Lilo and Stitch) and should be chosen for it's storytelling oppotunities over it's potential to please minorities. If it does both fine but "story, story, story" like Pixar says should take priority over anything else.

But really, Retrocool it sounds like you just want to bitch and stir up trouble wherever you see fit and not really judge a film based on it's merits of acting, storytelling, music etc. Which is guess is fine, but adding feul to this nonsense fire surrounding this film will likely not affect it's box office returns which will speak far more (and louder) than your rantings ever will.

[Queentitania19]

OK, so I just caught up on the cat fighting in here and I'm going to jump right in in the middle and try to split the difference.

My first instinct was to jump in and say "to hell with ethnicity, give me a good freaking story!!" Because I wholeheartedly agree that should be the priority. And I found it both offensive and racist that retro cool would attack saying that we didn't know what it's like to be excluded because we're not black. That is a crock of crap that assumes a lot about another person's life. It also assumes that the only exclusivity that matters is race.

I'm overweight. I have been my whole life. Ever see a fat Princess? How about a plain princess? Disney talks a whole talk about beauty being on the inside but you've never seen them do a fat ugly princess with a heart of gold. Why, because it wouldn't sell. As a matter of fact how many of the villains are the chubby ugly ones? I don't hate them for that. I won't punish them for that. Black, white, purple or green we can't all be beautiful skinny princesses. I worked in the Disney Store for 3 years and had to see heartbroken 7 year old girls that were already too big to fit in the pretty princess dresses.

The beauty of the story is that we lose our our troubles and our identities and for just a little while become someone else. Someone who isn't us with our problems. Someone who isn't fat, ugly, lonely, awkward, angry, sad, poor, stupid, smart or anything else that we always have to be. For just a short time, we can be somebody else whose story has a happy ending. Even if we never get one of our own. That is the ideal that I care about. That is the purity and the greatness that matters if it's compromised. It's a tradition that transcends age, race, gender and nationality. That is why it's a bigger focus than the ethnicity of the characters. Disney used to be the ultimate storytellers. They have lost it and we, as their loyal fans, are waiting with baited breath and crossed fingers to see if they've reclaimed the abilities that used to define them. Those abilities that made us love them.

Disney doesn't go out of their comfort zone. They swing in their sweet spot and that's it. This has paid them well in the past but it's also contributed to the degradation of the animation medium. Hence their current rut. This story is a risk for them. A big one. Not only because they are returning to a medium that they themselves declared dead but also because this racial change could go boom in their faces.

Retro, you are the best example of that. While giving them begrudged praise because they've finally acted in a manner you approve of you slap them with censure because of the ethnicity of the prince. Do you think they are idiots? Do you think that they are unaware of the serious controversy that still surrounds interracial relationships? They don't live in plastic bubbles. They know that it's a huge risk and said to hell with it and did it anyway. If anything it should be something that they are commended for. I know so many mixed families who have suffered that idiotic censure because their own race wasn't "good" enough for them. BULL****! They are the walking, talking, breathing examples of equality and the future of mankind. They are love and truth because they don't see race they see a person that they want to be with and they mix their lives and traditions and move forward toward the future without being choked by the past. Saying that portraying a white prince devalues black men is racism. It's hateful and prejudiced and narrow minded. Two people falling in love and building a life together doesn't hurt anyone else, it doesn't devalue anyone else. The only thing that matters is that love. Does a poor man marrying a rich woman devalue rich men? Does an educated women marrying an uneducated man devalue Educated men? No, that is utterly illogical. One has nothing to do with the other.

Disney is walking on boggy shaky ground with this movie because of people who can decide in a heartbeat that their modern progressive cast is really a stereotyping slander against African-Americans. This can turn on them in the blink of an eye. You wonder what took so long? Look at your own post. Look at the anger and resentment in it. This movie is a lightning bolt and nobody at Disney had the cojones to tackle this socio-political juggernaut till now.

My only point of correction that is not just my opinion is about Atlantis. Obviously Retro, you haven't seen that movie. She is not a mechanical girl, the girl is the expeditions' mechanic. But also in your defense, she's Latino, not black. Back to just my opinion, It's also ridiculous of you to say that secondary characters don't matter. Secondary characters can make the movie. Baloo and Louie are more well known than Mowgli anymore. Sebastian is as crucial to the story as Ariel . Jiminy Cricket and Tinkerbell became icons and stars outside of their movies, much above and beyond any secondary role. As did Timon and Pumbaa. The three fairies and the crow in Sleeping Beauty did more than the prince and princess combined and so did the mice in Cinderella and the dwarfs in Snow White. In fact, I would go so far as to say in the older fairy tales the princesses were mostly window dressing while the "secondary" characters made the story.