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  1. #46

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Rick View Post
    It has road wheel, guide Wheels, & upstops. Chain dogs and anti-roll backs. I believe by ACE standards that makes it a roller coaster.
    Since when is ACE the deciding factor in anything? Certainly not for me. So by that rationale, Calico Mine Train is also a roller coaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    What's wrong with comparing Supreme Scream/Demon Drop to Maliboomer/Tower of Terror? My point is that not all drop rides are created equally, and I think that illustrates the point just fine.
    Theming makes all the difference in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    What's the difference which ride was built first? You'd really be okay with it if Demon Drop had been at Knott's already, and then they built Supreme Scream?
    Cedar Point had Demon Drop before their S&S tower, and I doubt anybody was saying "they already have a drop ride".

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    And I think we all know that Knott's knows this is not a new ride. It's new to Knott's, true enough. New period? Of course not.
    Knott's knows it's not, but you can't tell me they aren't going to try and sell this as "New for 2010". Of course they are.

    What are they going to do "New for 2010 - an all new 26 year old ride from Cedar Point" ... No.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    This is probably true enough. While I only got to visit Cedar Point a few times, though, Demon Drop seemed to be working every time. Can anyone else who lives in the area tell us about it's reliability? Let's not forget that SFMM is the only park left with a Deja Vu, because they were the only park that can keep it working. Being the last one left doesn't necessarily mean anything.
    I can only give you my experience from the one at SFMM. It was pretty reliable, but the amount of work that had to go into the ride to keep it running was not cost efficient. If it was it would still be there. Why do you think Cedar Point wants to get rid of it? Nobody rides it, it costs too much to maintain.

    Honestly, I can see Demon Drop lasting a year at Knott's, if not less.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    It's not rude to the ride, it's rude to the person who likes the ride. No one wants to hear that their opinion sucks, and that's what that post amounted too.
    I've heard people say things I like suck. I don't take it personally. We are all different. I'm going to say it now ... even though I haven't ridden Demon Drop, I rode Freefall at SFMM enough times to tell you ... Demon Drop sucks. In MY opinion. In your opinion it's great, which is great. Less lines for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    All this said, I'm not defending all of Knott's decisions entirely. I'm disappointed it'll be unthemed, and a bit sad at Ghost Town losing more theming. No arguments there. But let's also not forget that Knott's was "losing" it's roots well before Cedar Fair came along.
    On this point I agree with ... Although I don't think the park would be as bad as it is now without Cedar Fair. We would have gotten Windjammer and Supreme Scream, but I doubt we'd have the ruined Ghost Town/Camp Snoopy area with Silver Bullet, Pony Express and Sierra Sidewinder (which I do like 2 of the 3 rides, just not where they are located).


  2. #47

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    In comparing Demon Drop, Supreme Scream, Tower of Terror, and Maliboomer, I'm comparing ride sensations, not theming. While I agree theming can make or break a ride, a lot of people are saying Demon Drop Supreme Scream are both drop rides, and therefore identical. I'm just pointing out that not all drop rides are equal, even in pure sensations. Even I think you would agree that, if your eyes were closed, all those rides would feel different, even though they're all drop rides.

    And of course Knott's will promote this ride as "new for 2010". It is new to Knott's. Is that deceiving? Perhaps, but that's a different arguement. But maybe their other option was to have no new ride at all, given this economy.

    Also, everyone is acting so shocked we're getting a used ride. Six Flags used to rotate complete roller coasters all the time. So this practice is not exactly new.

    Even if the ride doesn't last that long at Knott's, what's the big deal? For all we know, maybe it's only meant to be temporary. The Hall of Alumnimum at Disney didn't last all that long.

    Granted, I probably got overly senstive at being offended at some one else's opinion. But it still could have been worded better, regardless.

    And the largest problem Knott's has is where to expand. Their space is so limited, even more than Disney. Where would you have put in the coasters you mention?
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  3. #48

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    This is even sad for Cedar Point, a park that used to have a nice variety of attractions that has been systematically replacing everything that is not a straight-up rollercoaster. I enjoy rollercoasters, but I don't much care for a park that doesn't have anything else to offer.

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Also, everyone is acting so shocked we're getting a used ride. Six Flags used to rotate complete roller coasters all the time. So this practice is not exactly new.
    It's not a bad idea to rotate rides among a national chain. This way guests get to experience rides they normally wouldn't when said ride was across the country. The problem here is that the ride being rotated is not a very good or interesting one.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    And the largest problem Knott's has is where to expand. Their space is so limited, even more than Disney. Where would you have put in the coasters you mention?
    Actually the whole upper right hand corner of the park could be demolished for a Cedar Point coaster like Maverick or such. Xcellerator, Boomerang and the food stand could all disappear for one really good coaster from CP. For the record, I'd rather it not be a coaster but that's all CP seemingly has to offer.

  5. #50

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by vfire View Post
    It's not a bad idea to rotate rides among a national chain. This way guests get to experience rides they normally wouldn't when said ride was across the country. The problem here is that the ride being rotated is not a very good or interesting one.



    Actually the whole upper right hand corner of the park could be demolished for a Cedar Point coaster like Maverick or such. Xcellerator, Boomerang and the food stand could all disappear for one really good coaster from CP. For the record, I'd rather it not be a coaster but that's all CP seemingly has to offer.
    Wow, do I disagree! The ride being good or not is a relative thing (I happen to enjoy it a lot, but I know a lot of people don't), but being the only one left in North America isn't interesting to you? Doesn't matter to me at all that SFMM had one for years... living in the now, it's been gone for a number of years, and can't be ridden there anymore. Knott's will be the only location in the US.

    And you would really tear down Xcelerator? It's a great and relatively new ride. Besides, the question was, where would you have placed Sierra Sidewinder, Pony Express, and Silver Bullet, without destroying the theming of Ghost Town.
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  6. #51

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    In comparing Demon Drop, Supreme Scream, Tower of Terror, and Maliboomer, I'm comparing ride sensations, not theming. While I agree theming can make or break a ride, a lot of people are saying Demon Drop Supreme Scream are both drop rides, and therefore identical. I'm just pointing out that not all drop rides are equal, even in pure sensations. Even I think you would agree that, if your eyes were closed, all those rides would feel different, even though they're all drop rides.
    Your right, they are different sensations. And I do like the "Freefall" sensation, just not the pain that the 1st generation rides cause. Many people are going to remember that REAL quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    And of course Knott's will promote this ride as "new for 2010". It is new to Knott's. Is that deceiving? Perhaps, but that's a different arguement. But maybe their other option was to have no new ride at all, given this economy.
    It's not like they are putting this in an empty space. They are taking away a ride and replacing it with something different. I would have MUCH rather them keep Screamin' Swing.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Also, everyone is acting so shocked we're getting a used ride. Six Flags used to rotate complete roller coasters all the time. So this practice is not exactly new.
    Not 26 year old rides. Not even for a second. But again, that's not the point. If Cedar Fair had decided to give Knott's their Corkscrew or Magnum XL-200 that would be one thing. But they didn't. They decided to bring in a ride that is very well known and extremely un-popular in the SoCal market.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Even if the ride doesn't last that long at Knott's, what's the big deal? For all we know, maybe it's only meant to be temporary. The Hall of Alumnimum at Disney didn't last all that long.
    The $$ involved to gently take it down at Cedar Point, move it from Ohio to CA and re-construct it at Knott's has is NOT cheap. That is money that could better be spent elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    And the largest problem Knott's has is where to expand. Their space is so limited, even more than Disney. Where would you have put in the coasters you mention?
    They have more room than you think.


  7. #52

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Wow, do I disagree! The ride being good or not is a relative thing (I happen to enjoy it a lot, but I know a lot of people don't), but being the only one left in North America isn't interesting to you?
    It's the last of its kind for a reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Doesn't matter to me at all that SFMM had one for years... living in the now, it's been gone for a number of years, and can't be ridden there anymore. Knott's will be the only location in the US.
    I went on Freefall at Six Flags Great Adventure back in the high school day and didn't find it very impressive then, and I don't think I would now either.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    And you would really tear down Xcelerator?
    After that accident video... well... In any case, I don't like coaster's that are a one trick pony, unless the trick is really amazing like a Top Thrill Dragster. Xcelerator just isn't that good.

    Generally I like coasters that take me around a bit like Ghost Rider or Jaguar. So, yeah, I'd rip out that corner of the park for one of the great CP coasters.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    It's a great and relatively new ride. Besides, the question was, where would you have placed Sierra Sidewinder, Pony Express, and Silver Bullet, without destroying the theming of Ghost Town.
    They shouldn't have touched Ghost Town with those coasters, just a huge mistake trying to compete with Six Flags when they should have stuck to theme. If they had to put in those three coasters, which I don't think are bad rides at all, then rip out a bunch of the boring flat rides instead to make room for the coasters. Pony Express could actually have been themed to fit into Ghost Town if they had tried a bit harder.

  8. #53

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    For the people comparing Top Thrill Dragster and Xcelerator... Top Thrill Dragster has a higher top end speed (and much taller tophat), but Xcelerator goes 0-82 FASTER than TTD does. During initial testing, Xcelerator's launch system (which IS the prototype rocket coaster launch) a train was shot up to 114mph. The "one trick" is the launch, not the giant phallic symbol that DICK Kinzel and the boys at Cedar Fair built in Sandusky.
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  9. #54

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by sir clinksalot View Post
    It's not like they are putting this in an empty space. They are taking away a ride and replacing it with something different. I would have MUCH rather them keep Screamin' Swing.
    But no one was paying or riding Screamin' Swing. You'd keep an upcharge ride that no one was going on? Good luck in the management world.



    Quote Originally Posted by sir clinksalot View Post
    They have more room than you think.
    Care to be more specific? That's a pretty sweeping generalization without any substantial back up.


    Quote Originally Posted by vfire View Post
    It's the last of its kind for a reason...
    I already addressed this question, many times. Go back and read earlier posts.


    [quote=vfire;1055637666]After that accident video... well... In any case, I don't like coaster's that are a one trick pony, unless the trick is really amazing like a Top Thrill Dragster. Xcelerator just isn't that good.

    TTD is amazing and Xcelerator isn't? Aside from the additional height, they're identical. I've been on both, many times. I actually think the Xcelerator ride launch is superior, height or no. The extra speed is TTD isn't really noticeable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by vfire View Post
    Generally I like coasters that take me around a bit like Ghost Rider or Jaguar. So, yeah, I'd rip out that corner of the park for one of the great CP coasters.
    So Montezuma's Revenge should go too? And Speed in Las Vegas?

    Quote Originally Posted by vfire View Post
    They shouldn't have touched Ghost Town with those coasters, just a huge mistake trying to compete with Six Flags when they should have stuck to theme. If they had to put in those three coasters, which I don't think are bad rides at all, then rip out a bunch of the boring flat rides instead to make room for the coasters. Pony Express could actually have been themed to fit into Ghost Town if they had tried a bit harder.
    Uh... SFMM took out virtually all their flat rides, and do you know how many people are complaining about that? A well balanced park has more than just coasters. I'd also love to hear your specific ideas of how Pony Express could have been better themed to blend in, as well as the cost reports for management and budgets to peruse.
    Last edited by JesterMn; 11-01-2009 at 01:13 PM.
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  10. #55

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterMatt View Post
    For the people comparing Top Thrill Dragster and Xcelerator... Top Thrill Dragster has a higher top end speed (and much taller tophat), but Xcelerator goes 0-82 FASTER than TTD does. During initial testing, Xcelerator's launch system (which IS the prototype rocket coaster launch) a train was shot up to 114mph. The "one trick" is the launch, not the giant phallic symbol that DICK Kinzel and the boys at Cedar Fair built in Sandusky.
    Yep and the parts ended up across the street in the fire department parking lot.



    Care to be more specific? That's a pretty sweeping generalization without any substantial back up.
    South side of the park, behind big foot. The midway from Ghostrider exit looping south around to Ghost town BBQ. Screams for a ride, or two.
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  11. #56

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Care to be more specific? That's a pretty sweeping generalization without any substantial back up.
    Back-up you say ... here you go.



    Okay ... the red is Bigfoot Rapids, just to give you some perspective.

    The Blue is warehouse space they use for Haunt. This year this is where the Lockdown and Club Blood mazes were. That space coupled with the Green (employee parking/storage) easily gives you enough space for a few rides.

    The Orange buildings are also warehouse space. Much of it Haunt, much of it day-to-day operations stuff. Not as easy to get rid of, but possibily moved from that area to open up that area for more park space.

    The Yellow is currently guest parking. There have been rumors of them building a parking structure and using that area for the park for years.

    So as you can see, if they REALLY wanted to invest in the park, rather than ruining what's there, they can EASILY do so. But Cedar Fair doesn't really care about the history of the park (at least IMO).


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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    I will say, I appreciate your level of detail. And I think you have many good points. But there's still some problems.

    I know the blue area you are talking about as the haunt warehouses. As I recall, though, they are currently not directly connected with the rest of the park, they are backstage. There is a large building to the north of them that is also backstage, isn't it? How will you get people back there while continuing theming? That point raised, I'd agree that if they can get people back there smoothly, it could be a good expansion point.

    Even if the yellow area does get used for park expansion, you again have the problem of working around the existing orange buildings, which you yourself state would be difficult to move.

    But let's say it does work, and that Sierra Sidewinder, Pony Express, and Silver Bullit are all placed there (as they are the rides that ruined Ghost Town, according to an earlier post. I know Sierra Sidewinder isn't in Ghost Town, but it was brought up nevertheless). Now, you need to build a new ride for 2010, and you'd better have something planned for 2011 and 2012. Where do they go?

    Now, in a point I somewhat agree with you, Cedar Fair probably isn't investing as much in Knott's as it could be. But their bread and butter is at Cedar Point, so I can't say I'm much surprised, nor would I blame them much. It seems to parallel to how Disneyland will go to greater lengths for investment (Little Mermaid, Carsland, WOC, Ghost Galaxy), and WDW cuts back (shoddy SM upgrade).
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  13. #58

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterMn View Post
    Let's not forget that SFMM is the only park left with a Deja Vu, because they were the only park that can keep it working. Being the last one left doesn't necessarily mean anything.
    Not to interrupt too much with the Knotts argument your all having but SFMM is NOT the only park that still has an operating Deja Vu. The one from the Chicago Six Flags was sold and reassembled at Silverwood (youknow the park in Idaho that also has Knotts old corkscrew).


    Anywho, it'll be interesting to see how the marketing of this move will work out I think.
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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by sir clinksalot View Post
    Since when is ACE the deciding factor in anything? Certainly not for me. So by that rationale, Calico Mine Train is also a roller coaster.
    No upstops on the mine ride. The ACE definition is as good as any, and better than most.


    They will have to move in the southern direction if they want to grow. The only question is do they do it in one big jump, a Toontown or Cars Land.

    Or

    Do they do it incrementally, and if so, how will they break it up. And that makes for this fun discussion.
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  15. #60

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    Re: Cedar Point's Demon Drop to come to Knott's in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider View Post
    Not to interrupt too much with the Knotts argument your all having but SFMM is NOT the only park that still has an operating Deja Vu. The one from the Chicago Six Flags was sold and reassembled at Silverwood (youknow the park in Idaho that also has Knotts old corkscrew)..
    I ended up realizing that later. Still, nearly all of the other installations of this ride have been taken down. And I thought Silverwood was having trouble with theirs. Is that true?

    Screamscape just posted that the ride may get upgraded to magnetic brakes. If that's true, it would improve ride quality quite a bit. Let's hope for it!
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