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  1. #1

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    I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    While I have no way of proving it, I suspect that Disney may be perpetrating a fraud with regard to the actual number of pins in their so-called "Limited Editions." I believe that they are making and selling more than they claim, and I'm guessing that it has been going on for quite some time. Here is the logic behind my thinking:

    It stands to reason that the fewer in the edition, the more valuable and/or pricey the pin. While this may be reflected in Disney's (over-priced) suggested retail value, the real telling is in the wholesale cost which is a percentage markup on the manufacturing cost. In manufacturing, price per unit goes down as the quantity in the run goes up.

    Yet, I have seen authentic Disney pins with supposed limited editions as low as 300 units listed by sellers outside of Disney parks, events and stores, sellers who do not have the same overhead to consider into their pricing, for the same dollar amount or less than the higher edition pins they sell, which indicates to me that these sellers are basing their pricing solely on their wholesale cost which appears to be the same for smaller and larger editions. And again, this would not happen if the manufacturer's runs were truly different in quantity.

    Have any of you thought about this before? Does anyone else here suspect and/or have evidence that this may be the case?





  2. #2

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Howdy HatboxGhost,

    I'm pretty sure that what you are experiencing is not fraud on Disney's part, but rather fraudulent pins (counterfeits) which are becoming a real problem online (often through ebay).

    Rule of thumb, if the price seems too good to be true, it probably is!

    FYI - Disney legal would never allow the company to fudge the size of a limited edition item, the risk would far outweigh the potential reward. They aren't above doing 2nd editions however.
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  3. #3

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Here's an article from a well respected pin site that explains it.

    While the pins aren't updated in the article often, IMO, it's still important and usefl information.
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  4. #4

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    You know, I'm sorry but, after reading the articles, it sounds even more like a lot of hooey to me. If Disney were really concerned with quality control, fraud and regulating the true size of their pin editions, they would bring the manufacturing of their products back to the United States where they can keep a watchful eye on their molds, discards, employees, etc. I still believe that, in some way, Disney profits by the release of excess pins or they would not allow it.

    How does a buyer distinguish between a first and second authorized run? Are pins labeled as such?





  5. #5

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    The same reasons everyone else outsources... money. You HAVE to give up some quality to save some money. But I don't think their risk of labeling a pin LE 1000 and really making 7,000 is worth the legal consequences (I am assuming there would be some)

    Now that they have second releases, the pins and the backing say first release. That is fairly new though.
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  6. #6

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Yes, but this is only done for open edition pins. Limited edition pins do not have second releases.

    I also have recently wondered about where some e**y sellers are getting there pins and selling them at significantly below the price at the parks. And I am not talking about older pins. I typically will see pins listed online on the day they are released for less than half of the retail price in the park. Are these employees who are getting a deep discount? Or are people trading cheap stuff for them then turning around and selling them? I know the second thing happens, but right when its released?

  7. #7

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverNeverland View Post
    The same reasons everyone else outsources... money. You HAVE to give up some quality to save some money. But I don't think their risk of labeling a pin LE 1000 and really making 7,000 is worth the legal consequences (I am assuming there would be some)

    Now that they have second releases, the pins and the backing say first release. That is fairly new though.
    No, you DON'T have to give up quality to save money.

    Claiming an item is part of a limited edition of X and releasing a larger edition of Y is called FRAUD. It's also false advertising.

    If there is a second release of a limited edition item, then, obviously, it isn't so limited, is it? Again, FRAUD.





  8. #8

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    I have been collecting pins for awhile now about 7 years. I am sorry, but I have not seen any evidence of what you claim. There are counterfeit pins made of the exact same pins. Sometimes of limited editions. I would love to see Disney put more control on these things.

    However, when they say they have only made a hundred of a pin, they mean it. There are exceptions to this.

    First are artist proofs. Usually there are only a few of these around 3 per pin. These are done so they can make sure the pin looks like they want it to, before they go into full production.

    Then there are scrappers. Disney may quality check pins and find one that does note meet muster. That pin will be "scrapped" or thrown away. Sometimes those pins will be pocketed by employees at the plant and sold. Another form of scrappers are pins made by the same manufacturer that made the regular edition. They use the same molds, but cheaper materials to make additional pins that they sell to dealers. These are not official disney pins.

    Frankly Disney should have better controls and put a stop to it, but I have seen no evidence that Disney is facilitating these fake pins or making any money off of them.

    I think you misinterpretted something Neverneverland said. When she was referring to a second release, she did not mean of a limited edition pin. On open edition (meaning Disney will make as many as they want) pins, the first time an open edition is offered, they put a first release on the back. After those sell out, if they want, Disney will have more made. These new ones will not have the first release on them. Open edition pins are never stated to be limited edition. Limited editions do not have the first release stamp on the back, since there is only 1 release of them.

    Now why can a dealer sell a pin at the retail cost? Well there are ways. For example, they could have got a sale on them. It does happen, not so much with park pins, but pins from Disneyshopping.com routinely go on sale. They could also buy collections from people who no longer want them. They could pay a single rate for a big pile of pins. Like I sid earlier, it is possible they are selling fake pins. There is a dealer on ebay who is always selling the Jessica Rabbit Cayman Island police officer pin. I bought one and found it to be a scrapper. I will not deal with that person again and have pretty much sworn off pin buying on ebay. Also there is supply and demand to consider. Just because a pin is limited edition does not mean it is popular. A dealer may be selling the pin at or below cost just to get rid of it.

    Like I said, these are all possibilities. I have seen no evidence to support your theory. So I ask, do you have any evidence to support your theory?

  9. #9

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    If you're asking me your final question, I believe that I opened my initial message with, "I have no way of proving it."





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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Excellent. I have supplied numerous ways that you could have been able to find the pins you did. If you have any questions about what I typed, feel free to ask. However, since you have no real evidence that Disney is committing fraud, I think we can consider this issue resolved.
    Last edited by Melonballer; 09-10-2009 at 08:02 PM.

  11. #11

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    The pins are counterfeited, because the bootleggers know there is a lot of money that can be made. There are even counterfeits of cast member service pins, especially of the 10 year and higher ones. Good thing nobody bothers to counterfeit cast nametags, or I would be in trouble!

  12. #12

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonballer View Post
    Excellent. I have supplied numerous ways that you could have been able to find the pins you did. If you have any questions about what I typed, feel free to ask. However, since you have no real evidence that Disney is committing fraud, I think we can consider this issue resolved.
    Not really.

    It seems to me that you're presenting your point-of-view with no hard evidence either, just your personal opinion. So, in actuality, nothing is resolved and I'm not sure that it can be.





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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceDad View Post
    Yes, but this is only done for open edition pins. Limited edition pins do not have second releases.

    I also have recently wondered about where some e**y sellers are getting there pins and selling them at significantly below the price at the parks. And I am not talking about older pins. I typically will see pins listed online on the day they are released for less than half of the retail price in the park. Are these employees who are getting a deep discount? Or are people trading cheap stuff for them then turning around and selling them? I know the second thing happens, but right when its released?
    Another example of what I'm talking about, and more evidence to support my suspicions.





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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHatboxGhost View Post
    Not really.

    It seems to me that you're presenting your point-of-view with no hard evidence either, just your personal opinion. So, in actuality, nothing is resolved — and I'm not sure that it can be.
    What hard evidence would you like? I can supply pictures of fake pins.

    For example, here is a side by side picture of a fake and real Jessica Rabbit pin. The real one is on the left.





    There are Artist Proofs. I do not own any personally, but I know people who do own some. Several in fact.

    Proof that Disney sales pins at a discount so a reseller could sell them at the original price? Here is an example of one currently for sale on Disneystore.com.

    July Birthstone Dangler Tinker Bell Pin

    If you could tell me more about the pin you saw that caused you to have this concern, I might be able to help. Without that knowledge, I can only offer what I already know about pin trading.
    Last edited by Melonballer; 11-02-2009 at 02:43 AM.

  15. #15

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    Re: I'm Beginning To Have My Doubts

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonballer View Post
    What hard evidence would you like? I can supply pictures of fake pins.

    For example, here is a side by side picture of a fake and real Jessica Rabbit pin. The real one is on the left.





    There are Artist Proofs. I do not own any personally, but I know people who do own some. Several in fact.

    Proof that Disney sales pins at a discount so a reseller could sell them at the original price? Here is an example of one currently for sale on Disneystore.com.

    July Birthstone Dangler Tinker Bell Pin

    If you could tell me more about the pin you saw that caused you to have this concern, I might be able to help. Without that knowledge, I can only offer what I already know about pin trading.
    The fact that there are counterfeit pins has NOTHING to do with my suspicions that Disney deliberately exceeds the number of units that they claim to be in their "limited" editions. That is the point that I'm making, NOT whether some pins are fake. And again, this all goes back to my reasoning as expressed in my original message.





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