Page 7 of 19 FirstFirst ... 4567891017 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 272
  1. #91

    • Roller coaster enthusiast
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    389

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    The problem with the sea pen idea is that the whales live virtually in a microb free environment that is continually filtered and so their immune systems have adapted to that environment. It would be wrong to introduce them to waters that are polluted and have a whole range of harmful bacteria. Would you put a family that was born and raised in a pure oxygen environment in the normal atmosphere you and I breath? It would certainly be harmful to them even if you give them all the antiviral shots they need simply because they're bodies hasn't ever encountered our normal atmosphere before.
    Current coaster count: 155
    100th coaster: Phantom's Revenge at Kennywood
    150th coaster: Intimidator at Carowinds
    last new park addition: Fun Spot America

  2. #92

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    701

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Thanks, evergreen!


    Many wildlife sanctuaries, for circus, roadside zoo and backyard refugees, exist around the globe for animals such as big cats, elephants and chimpanzees. The business (usually nonprofit) model for these types of facilities is therefore well-established for terrestrial species and can be adapted for orcas.


    Wildlife sanctuaries are sometimes open to the public, although public interaction with the animals is usually minimized. A visitor's center can offer education, real-time remote viewing of the animals, a gift shop, and in the case of whales and dolphins can even be a base for responsible whale watching if the sanctuary is in a suitable location for that activity.


    Marine theme parks do not need to lose out financially by phasing out orca shows; this is a transformative proposal, not a punitive one.

    -- Dr. Naomi Rose (I previously posted her response to Sea World's statement in this thread)


    Source: A win-win solution for captive orcas and marine theme parks - CNN.com

  3. #93

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    701

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    That's a good question, CoasterJunkie. I couldn't find a lot of information about it doing a quick search. Anecdotally, Keiko's health improved when he was transferred first from "dirty" aquarium water in Mexico to sea water-based aquarium water in Oregon and later to a sea pen.


    You will recall that he died of pneumonia in cold waters off the coast of Norway, five years after being released. However, his handlers still called his release a great success. You can read some FAQ about Keiko here: Keiko.com: Frequently Asked Questions about Keiko and you can read why his release (and the successful release of Springer) was the right decision here: Keiko (Free Willy): 20 Years Later, History Proves His Release to Have Been the Right Decision | Candace Calloway Whiting


    However, we're not talking about release into open waters. Their health can still be monitored in sea pens. They have been trained to "beach" on platforms for medical staff, after all.

  4. #94

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    701

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Quote Originally Posted by Coasterjunkie View Post
    It would certainly be harmful to them even if you give them all the antiviral shots they need simply because they're bodies hasn't ever encountered our normal atmosphere before.
    But isn't that exactly what we already do? We humans have introduced orca to "our" world, and we subsequently pack their fish with daily antibiotics. Why would we have to do that at all, if the water/habitat were as clean as you say it is?

    Trainers routinely stuff the gills of fish with antibiotics, antacids and vitamins, and inject them with fresh water, because freezing, storing, thawing and processing fish reduces its nutritional value and fresh water content and stress is a constant concern.- See more at: TALKING POINTS | DEATH AT SEAWORLD: Shamu and the Dark Side of Killer Whales in Captivity
    EDIT: Here is a peer-reviewed article discussing the mosquito-borne illnesses captive orca are susceptible to, the negative effects of captivity on the immune system, and the deleterious effects of long-term use of antibiotics. http://www.marineconnection.org/docs...&Ventre12).pdf
    Last edited by The First Star; 01-11-2014 at 02:36 PM.

  5. #95

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    701

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Quote Originally Posted by The First Star View Post
    Another leading researcher, Dr. Diana Reiss (who I believe I mentioned previously), proposes in her book The Dolphin in the Mirror, that Sea World end its breeding program but perform more animal rescues throughout the world (and not just sea turtles, but large sea mammals). The animals' rescue, rehabilitation, and release would be the show, not tricks for food.
    Here are a few quotes from her book. She writes specifically about dolphins, but keep in mind that orca are the largest living members of the dolphin family.

    “Aquariums, if they are to be viable in the future, must develop educational venues that allow people to experience for themselves the remarkable cognitive abilities and social prowess of dolphins. Rather than putting on 1950s-style dolphin shows, educational and entertaining films could be shown to teach visitors about dolphins, including the traits that have made them so interesting to the public from ancient times to the present. Aquariums need to provide experiences and tell stories that create the pattern that connects us to dolphins in a visceral way. And it is also the responsibility of aquariums to educate people about the plight of dolphins in the wild and engage their participation in alleviating the problems. In other words, I think that any aquarium that maintains social groups of dolphins must commit not only to attending to the welfare of the individuals in its care but also to fighting for the welfare of dolphins in the wild, including the conservation and protection of wild populations. If these two conditions are met, I support this second, more complex proposal, that aquariums maintain the current population of captive dolphins. I support it now in the world we live in, because at this point dolphins and whales need to be in the public eye and heart. We need to fight for their protection.


    "The past half a century has seen an odd contradiction in the evolution of zoos and aquariums, at least as far as dolphins are concerned. The first zoos were little more than menageries, often established by noblemen as curiosities, displaying exotic animals captured from the Dark Continent. The animals were viewed as spectacles or even freaks, housed in small cages with prisonlike bars. Beginning in the twentieth century, zoos gradually became wildlife parks, providing animals with more space and richer environments that approximated their natural habitats in some measure. No one is fooled into thinking that he is in a truly natural environment when he goes to a wildlife park, but from an animal welfare point of view, these establishments are a terrific improvement over menageries.
    For dolphins in aquariums, the opposite has occurred. Where once they swam in the company of fish, turtles, seals, and other sea life, they are now too often housed in sterile tanks, in the interests of sanitation. Not all aquariums do this, of course, but most do. And most aquariums continue to see dolphin shows as not only appropriate but “as centerpieces of their aquariums. Many managers of aquariums maintain that dolphin shows are what the public wants. They want to see dolphins do higher and higher jumps to reach the omnipresent ball hanging from above. Frankly, I find dolphin shows to be old style rather than forward looking and transformational. They take us back to the mentality of menageries, with animals being held as spectacles to be ogled. Having dolphins jump higher and higher and do ever more clever tricks demeans them as objects; it does not respect them for the kind of animals they really are. I view aquariums that indulge in these archaic displays as letting down both people and dolphins."

    (Edit: that is a quote from chapter 10. I don't know the actual page numbers because I'm using iBooks.)

    I don't mean to confuse the issue by talking about dolphins, but I did want to present another viewpoint from another leading researcher who opposes the breeding program and performances for food rewards, yet who does not propose sending animals to sea pens. Again, orca are the largest living members of the dolphin family.
    Last edited by The First Star; 01-11-2014 at 05:37 PM.

  6. #96

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    140

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Quote Originally Posted by The First Star View Post
    I don't mean to confuse the issue by talking about dolphins, but I did want to present another viewpoint from another leading researcher who opposes the breeding program and performances for food rewards, yet who does not propose sending animals to sea pens. Again, orca are the largest living members of the dolphin family.
    You are not confusing the issue by including dolphins. The issue is confused, I think, by those who exclude dolphins from their criticisms of marine theme parks. Captive dophins experience the same hardships as captive orcas.

  7. #97

    • Ravenclaw
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Diego, California, United States
    Posts
    790

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Quote Originally Posted by evergreen View Post
    Her gripe was with the tone of the film and how it was explained to her before she did the interview. Nonetheless, her conclusion was the same as the makers of the film: "I would end animals for entertainment purposes, and stop the breeding program.”
    No, her gripe is that she was lied to by the filmmaker and the footage used was manipulated to lie to the audience. Her anti-captivity stance is what it is, but at least she doesn't lie to the public.
    Amnesia used to be my favourite word, but I forgot it.

  8. #98

    • "I Break Things"
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    12,366

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    I think this entire conversation will get a LOT more public if Blackfish wins at the Oscars. Ultimately that is what Sea World is trying to advertise against. Consider the fact that Sea World initially didn't respond at all until performers publicly cancelled on them. Now we're in "awards season"... and the mere rumor of a nomination generated full page ads. I find it fascinating.

    For anyone who wants to see the orcas what is "better"... seeing them in the wild... or watching one splash around in a bathtub?
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"


  9. #99

    • New Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Tilikum wasn't rescued,he was bought and used as a breeder.Many times.Money was made of of him...Orcas stay with their family forever,but yet many of the orcas have been moved a few times and they are having to adjust over and over .These are Orcas that STAY with their family for life !Have you seen the list of Orcas that Sea World has had,have now,the ones that have died in captivity,the accident reports from the years,etc? Google them.Look at those.And yes I have seen Blackfish,I also have seen other documentaries on the subject as well read and inform myself.Not just with one documentary. Try THE COVE,or The Last Whale.Wonder about dolphin captivity?Do you wonder what s going on in TAIJI with the capture and slaughter of dolphins?Google that.Orca project,etc.,I could go on...It's NOT just ONE documentary. We have learned alot since the beginning of keeping these cetaceans in captivity.We have learned it's not right. It's not fair....And to me, 3 people killed is a big deal.That was three lives too many. A life has value.All life has value....It's not "three people". Those people had families and names....There were many accident reports made,Look those up.I am not saying Close Sea World. I am saying it is not right to keep them in captivity any longer.Sea Pens,releases,this is what they would want.It's not always our dream and what WE want.We don't need this kind of education from Sea World any longer..We can do without it. It's entertainment,plain and simple.It's time to stop.

  10. #100

    • New Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Football players have a CHOICE to play..These" wild Orcas,dolphins,etc" HAVE NO CHOICE.This is not the life I believe they would CHOOSE. They are separated from their families,they cry,they have feelings,they have communication within their pods in the wild,but yet many are moved from park to park,having to transition yet again.I've read how many have died in captivity,how many there are now,breeding program,etc. COME ON, whose happy? The trainers because its their own dream? I really don't think it's the orcas dream, or any other animal there.I do believe the trainers love them.I really do.Who wouldn't. But let's do a reality check.How far do they get to a swim a day,compared to the wild? collapsed fins in males,bad teeth from chewing on everything ,having to get them drilled constantly,not being able to catch their own food,not being a part of the family they would like to be with,etc....These wild orcas,animals,were not meant to be trained for our personnel pleasure. It is selfish! It is everyone's dream but the one's who have no voice.We,as thinking human beings,do not have to OWN everything and MAKE A PROFIT off of it at whatever cost! Even the cost of a life! Any and ALL lives.It's time to face the truth...Who's dream of this wonderful life in captivity is this really?

  11. #101

    • "I Break Things"
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    12,366

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    I certainly enjoy the back and forth. I'm grateful that Micechat is willing to wade into this. There are questions about misrepresentation in the film. That said, SeaWorld seems to be getting off "lightly" in the features. Had a comparable movie come out about Disney I highly doubt Micechat would keep the kid gloves on.

    Micechat is hard on Disney's management, and their decisions. But nothing has been discussed about the decisions of SeaWorld's management team. For example... trainer doesn't feel comfortable or feels an orca isn't behaving correctly. They decide not to get in the water. How is that viewed by management? Does that have an impact on a job performance review? Does that have an impact on future promotions or selections to other programs? That sounds like a reasonable question yet no one asked it.

    For that matter the open letter from SeaWorld got no coverage. Why? The facts in there are so skewed and the word play so pervasive that you'd think Uncle Marty was writing about not putting Disney characters in Small World... we all know how that turned out. Yet not a peep and certainly not a feature. No critique of SeaWorld. Had the name been "Disney" I assume the harder questions would be asked. Actually scratch that I don't have to assume. I remember how much press Uncle Marty's letter got on here! They took a harder look because as the site states it is a "Different look at Disney".

    What struck me about Bridgette's interview is that she doesn't want animals to perform, but wants to take her kids to SeaWorld. As a parent I can understand this. Such a place exists... it's called an aquarium. The problem is that orcas can't easily be displayed due to their size and migratory habits. Think of them like elephants, only substantially larger. As badly as I want my own kids to see these majestic creatures up close... I know that the needs of the animal must come before the whims of the parent.

    Mark had an interesting interview. I was very impressed. But there is a gap in the questions. If orcas exhibit specific precursors prior to violent behavior AND Dawn had substantial experience to notice these behaviors then why is she dead? The theme seemed to be "don't blame Dawn" and "don't blame the orca"... but both are not possible. Either the orca exhibited said behaviors and she missed them, or the orca is a wild animal and no indicating behavior was given. Mark also failed to mention if there were any repercussions if a trainer decided not to get into the water. How did SeaWorld management react when a trainer made that decision. Did it have an impact on promotion, job performance reviews, assignments etc. He skipped over that and it struck me as such an obvious question. Had it been Disney I know Micechat would have asked that one immediately. CM's have stated openly before what the "official" and "unofficial" stances are on various situations.

    What I would be interested in is the edited materials. They obviously recorded hours of interviews. Mark doesn't remember everything he said. I respect that. But we should be able to see it, all of it. Each interview in the full unedited glory.
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"


  12. #102

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    701

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    ^^^Great post, TechSkip. I made a point in the comments to Mark's interview that even if we disregard the high possibility that Tilikum has mental issues brought on by stress and boredom, then we're just calling him an unpredictable wild animal. Neither option makes the case for captivity.

  13. #103

    • New Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post


    Mark had an interesting interview. I was very impressed. But there is a gap in the questions. If orcas exhibit specific precursors prior to violent behavior AND Dawn had substantial experience to notice these behaviors then why is she dead? The theme seemed to be "don't blame Dawn" and "don't blame the orca"... but both are not possible. Either the orca exhibited said behaviors and she missed them, or the orca is a wild animal and no indicating behavior was given.
    If I may respond to the question of Dawn and the precursors to aggressive behavior, I was able to help Eric Davis write up Mark and Bridgette's interviews for publication and thus have access to the entire audio. Mark did address the issues of Dawn's last session in another way that we were unable to include in the written version.
    When Tilikum was first captured and held at SeaLand, he was abused. He was confined nightly (as shown in the film) and his training for the extent of his life there included punishment, food deprivation and social isolation. As a result, when he was living at SeaLand, any toy he may have been able to access had to be kept away from the trainers and the other whales at all costs, because it would be removed from him if his behavior was not satisfactory. This possessive behavior was developed very strongly in him, as he was still very young when these training techniques were being practiced with him. Mark states that when Tilikum first arrived at SeaWorld, he had to be taught to retrieve toys and other objects that were in his pool. It took Tili a long time to learn that his trainers would return his playthings to him and not remove them as a punishment.
    This relates to Dawn's death in the following manner. During her last session, Dawn was lying on the slideout very close to Tili, an action that was fully within protocol at that time (this has obviously changed since.) Mark states that when Tilikum first grabbed ahold of Dawn, he was not violent or aggressive with her. He pulled her into the water, but not roughly. The trainers around the side of the pool recognized immediately that this was not a safe situation for Dawn, and reacted such, by running, alerting spotters, alarms, ect. Their actions (as is Mark's conviction) alarmed Tilikum and caused him to regress to his previous possessive behavior, as evidenced by the fact that he refused to allow Dawn to go for a long time after she had already passed.
    If Mark is correct in this assumption (and with his experience, I am inclined to at least consider it), this would mean that it was Tilikum's history of abusive training that really lead to Dawn's death, not a mistake on her part nor an intentionally aggressive move on his. I wasn't there at the time, obviously, nor am I a killer whale behaviorist, just trying to clarify the explanation of the apparent double standard of "how can it not be Dawn's fault, but also not be Tili's."

  14. #104

    • MiceChat Round-Up Crew
    • is in Antarctica
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    4,450

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Thank you for your post EMikinney
    Get the latest and greatest theme park news by


  15. #105

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    701

    Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Quote Originally Posted by emckinney21 View Post
    If Mark is correct in this assumption (and with his experience, I am inclined to at least consider it), this would mean that it was Tilikum's history of abusive training that really lead to Dawn's death, not a mistake on her part nor an intentionally aggressive move on his. I wasn't there at the time, obviously, nor am I a killer whale behaviorist, just trying to clarify the explanation of the apparent double standard of "how can it not be Dawn's fault, but also not be Tili's."

    In a moment of duress, he regresses to prior learning? It's certainly possible, and it does simplify matters (Occam's razor) if we ignore or lessen the possibility of mental illness in Tilikum.


    It's a good theory but it still doesn't provide a satisfactory explanation. It still implies that Sea World accepted Tilikum as a show animal despite knowing that he had a questionable background, to say the least. He was abused, displayed possessive behavior, was disobedient, and had to undergo significant re-training. Add that to the fact that they knew he was involved (directly or indirectly) in the death of a trainer at Sea Land. The mistake is still in Sea World's insistence on using him as a show animal. Especially after the incident in which a drunk snuck into his pool at night and wound up beaten and drowned.

Page 7 of 19 FirstFirst ... 4567891017 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-03-2009, 05:33 AM
  2. [Question] going to seaworld. what shoild i do?
    By lovedisney33 in forum SeaWorld California
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-28-2008, 11:51 AM
  3. [Question] going to seaworld. what shoild i do?
    By lovedisney33 in forum Other Destinations
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-28-2008, 11:51 AM
  4. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-01-2007, 04:21 AM
  5. Anyone Going to See Herbie?
    By Am_I_Demon in forum MiceChat News Archive
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-13-2005, 10:05 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •