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Thread: Why oh why???

  1. #16

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    Re: Why oh why???

    I guess I'm on the fence about this. On one hand, sure I agree with TDLFAN and people in general that builing yet ANOTHER park when every last one they built in the last 8 years, minus TDS, is in trouble now and all needs serious attention is ludicrous to me. Have they NOT learned their lesson with the last few parks?? Especially since the one that is failing now is the one that is already in China now?

    That said, IF the rumrs are true and they are really building a world class theme park like DLP, TDS, etc, then yes it could be a different story. I personnally have no problem if they build a Disney theme park in every country as LONG as they are built with the same care, craftmanship and innovation that they USE to build these parks. I never bought the argument that Disney parks are too special that only a very small minority of people deserve to have and enjoy them. That feels a little elistist to me (although its funny no one else would ever put elitist and theme parks in the same sentence lol) and I been to all the resorts multiple times. If they can give quality parks to the masses anywhere in the world, then great!!! I dont know how that makes park like the original, Epcot, TDS, etc less special just because there are similar ones in Latin America somewhere.

    But what the real problem and what the OP alluded too, that these parks (and especially HKDL IMO) are just cheap cookie-cutter parks and it dilutes the brand in general. They are building them like you build Ikea furniture basically and IF thats what Shanghai is getting here, then I would be bothered with this too.

    But I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we find out more and yes if done right, then it could be a good thing, not just for China or Disney, but for us as well. What I mean by that is if SDL is an expansive, full day park from the outset again and this it turns out to be a hit, then maybe other parks from this point on will get the same treatment. They might finally realize the horrible half-day-make-it-worth-paying-full-price-for-10-years-later model is simply not the way to go since those are all failing and they will have one that is sucessful and thriving from the outset.

    But, if this one flops too and big time, I suspect we wont see another Disny park built again for a very long time to come anyway.
    Last edited by WorldDisney; 11-10-2009 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #17

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    Re: Why oh why???

    I disagree....simply due to the fact that it is going to be in a very different area than Hong Kong and Tokyo...despite their relative closeness, their potential audience is very different.

    I do believe it's ironic though that HKDL is going to now move faster with its own plans in response to what is basically another park in the same company

  3. #18

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    Re: Why oh why???

    My debbie downer view on this:

    HKDL is already ruined. It's been ruined since it's opening and worst yet they planned and designed the park in such a way that would make serious expansion or improvements to the park very difficult. It's reputation will be downsized by the major plans for the major Shanghai park but they kinda brought it upon themselves. I guess it wont be so bad though. Now Hong Kong Disneyland will be kinda like a mini Disneyland. And the additional of a Shanghai park could ease crowded times (like holidays) at HKDL as chinese tourists spread out between the two or will even go to Tokyo Disney.

  4. #19

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Quote Originally Posted by toonaspie View Post
    My debbie downer view on this:

    HKDL is already ruined. It's been ruined since it's opening and worst yet they planned and designed the park in such a way that would make serious expansion or improvements to the park very difficult. It's reputation will be downsized by the major plans for the major Shanghai park but they kinda brought it upon themselves. I guess it wont be so bad though. Now Hong Kong Disneyland will be kinda like a mini Disneyland. And the additional of a Shanghai park could ease crowded times (like holidays) at HKDL as chinese tourists spread out between the two or will even go to Tokyo Disney.
    I see where you're coming from but don't feel as pessimistic. Imagineers, when building HKDL, were faced with an el-cheapo budget, and decided to sacrifice quantity but not quality. Also, they maintained the coherent layout (hub and spoke) of the original Disneyland. There was sufficient room left for expansion and the expansion pads could connect to each other to the existing park in a meaningful way. Comparatively, in my opinion:

    Disney-MGM - another park that initially sacrificed quantity but not quality. However, the layout is incoherent and there can be no expansion without tearing up existing structures.

    Disney's California Adventure - initially sacrificed quality but not quantity. Now making up for quality but still with a poor layout and overall theme.

    Walt Disney Studios Paris - built without quantity and without much quality, and hasn't improved a whole lot in either count. The layout is fatally flawed.

    Compared to these three parks I think HKDL is much more well thought out and has much more potential for the future. The park that HKDL strikes me as being most similar to in all these respects is Animal Kingdom, my favorite park in Orlando.

    If, in addition to Mystic Manor, two other unique and exceptional E-tickets are added in the next 10 years or so, and if in the next 10-15 years they build a truly exceptional second gate without any of the compromises that we saw with the first park, then I feel HKDLR can be salvaged and can hold its own again SHDLR.
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  5. #20

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Quote Originally Posted by tasman View Post
    I see where you're coming from but don't feel as pessimistic. Imagineers, when building HKDL, were faced with an el-cheapo budget, and decided to sacrifice quantity but not quality. Also, they maintained the coherent layout (hub and spoke) of the original Disneyland. There was sufficient room left for expansion and the expansion pads could connect to each other to the existing park in a meaningful way. Comparatively, in my opinion:

    That may be true, but there is very little in Hong Kong Disneyland that stands out from a design/theming perspective. It may have copied many elements from the original Disneyland, but all the current lands are very ho-hum and forgettable in my opinion (including the very dated and unoriginal castle). Compared to say Disneyland Paris, where all the lands have their unique differences and charm. I know this will change somewhat with the upcoming expansion, but the current park holds neither amazing E-ticket attractions (like Disneyland and Tokyo Disneyland), nor superb theming and attention to detail (like Disneyland Paris).
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  6. #21

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Myself I'm also on the fence about this, on one hand Disney has been known to open up new parks too small and sacrifice number of attractions just to rush the opening.

    On the other hand, because of this HKDL is looking to open the expansions faster (Though I hope quality is not sacrificed because of that.)

    When it comes to what the park will be like, I will say it would be nice if it's not a cookie cutter mold and stands out in a good way.

    While it would be nice for it to go big on quality and detail like DLP, for some reason I honestly don't think it's going to hit the quality DLP posses as a main gate.
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  7. #22

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Disney in China works for me! But what doesn't work is the change to the Toad ride in Anaheim! They've taken out the devils from the trip to hell! Nobody noticed?

  8. #23

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Quote Originally Posted by TDR_Fan View Post
    That may be true, but there is very little in Hong Kong Disneyland that stands out from a design/theming perspective. It may have copied many elements from the original Disneyland, but all the current lands are very ho-hum and forgettable in my opinion (including the very dated and unoriginal castle). Compared to say Disneyland Paris, where all the lands have their unique differences and charm. I know this will change somewhat with the upcoming expansion, but the current park holds neither amazing E-ticket attractions (like Disneyland and Tokyo Disneyland), nor superb theming and attention to detail (like Disneyland Paris).
    I understand what you're saying, and I agree, but view things from a different perspective. The existing attractions at HKDL may not be unique or superlative, but they are not poorly designed or situated either unlike many of the initial offerings at DCA and WDS, and the park was designed to accomodate future expansions in an orderly fashion (unlike D-MGMS, DCA, or WDS). I feel, especially with SHDL breathing down its neck, that HKDL will add more unique and exceptional rides in coming years, and that the park when full-size will not feel haphazardly put-together like those other parks. From what I've seen thus far I've certainly not had any compelling urge to go there as I do with Tokyo, but I do feel that HKDL is not beyond repair. HKDL today strikes me as very similar to AK in the early 2000s, after the addition of the bulk of Asia including Kali, and before the addition of Everest. I hope that the combo of Mystic Manor and Grizzly Peak would have the same impact that Everest did at AK. My guess / hope is that these additions plus a DTD equivalent and new lodging could boost attendance to at least 7 million anually - maybe lagging much behind the other MKs, but still enough of a foundation to build upon in future.
    Last edited by tasman; 11-13-2009 at 07:15 AM.
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  9. #24

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    Re: Why oh why???

    There are already too many near-duplicates of Disneyland. Disney always used to be so careful about cheapening its trademark, but, over the last fifteen years, the jackasses running the company have continued to pull this crap without any regard for the damage they're doing.

    They've completely trashed the brand. I feel no affinity at all for Disney anymore. If the company in its current form disappeared off the face of the Earth, I'd say, "Good riddance."

  10. #25

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Very well stated idealist! I agree with you 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by tasman View Post
    Disagree - IMO Shanghai DL will be the best thing Disney has done in a while.
    You can disagree all you want but you have not given concrete reason as too why you feEL this way and do not offer a credible opinion as to why this is a good idea. only time will tell.

    Furthermore, where are the blueprints for this park? how do we know this is going to be an extravagant park with a high construction budgets? So this is JUST heresay from all of you as far as I know. In a land of great looking knock-off marketplaces, I get the feeling this SDL will be just that: another knockoff from the old chip in CA. And who knows.. maybe it will have the added incentive that we guests will be able to negotiate cheaper prices for souvenirs with the Cms at the Emporium... hAHAHAHAHA!!!

  11. #26

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Frankly, I'm sick of sending everything we do well overseas. (especially China) Its an AMERICAN icon, keep it American. Let the Chineese invent and build their own amusement parks.

    I've never been to a foreign Disney park, but somehow due to the culture differences, I don't think they will ever measure up to the bar we have set here in terms of friendly service and the overall guest experience that cast members here create.

  12. #27

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Quote Originally Posted by CMHusband View Post
    Frankly, I'm sick of sending everything we do well overseas. (especially China) Its an AMERICAN icon, keep it American. Let the Chineese invent and build their own amusement parks.

    I've never been to a foreign Disney park, but somehow due to the culture differences, I don't think they will ever measure up to the bar we have set here in terms of friendly service and the overall guest experience that cast members here create.
    Sorry dude, but HIGHLY disagree there! Take it from someone who has grew up with the original park all his life, but fortunate enough to hit every resort worldwide, Disney USA has lacked ALOT from what has been done overseas, specifically TokyoDisney Resort.

    TDLFAN can vouch for this as well, but TDR does things head and above shoulders than what the American parks been doing the last several years. Yes, it has gotten better, but the Japan parks is what really upholds the standards and quality we USE to expect from Disney USA, especially when it comes to customer service.

    Dont get me wrong, DLR is getting back on its feet in that regard as well, but for the original park, they should be leading the charge and not behind the others.

    And also, you dont need to speak a lick of Japanese to feel the magic or same vibe you find in the American parks. Its still very much Disneyland in all its magical form .

  13. #28

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Quote Originally Posted by TDLFAN View Post
    You can disagree all you want but you have not given concrete reason as too why you feEL this way and do not offer a credible opinion as to why this is a good idea. only time will tell.

    Furthermore, where are the blueprints for this park? how do we know this is going to be an extravagant park with a high construction budgets? So this is JUST heresay from all of you as far as I know. In a land of great looking knock-off marketplaces, I get the feeling this SDL will be just that: another knockoff from the old chip in CA. And who knows.. maybe it will have the added incentive that we guests will be able to negotiate cheaper prices for souvenirs with the Cms at the Emporium... hAHAHAHAHA!!!
    I somehow doubt...regardless of what reasoning is presented...that it would change your mind a tiny bit. I base my optimism on the statement that they are spending a sufficient amount of money to build a good park, on the fact that the Iger administration has some significant (positive) differences with the Eisner one, and that they will have a serious desire not to repeat the lack of quantity and originality that has had important (adverse) consequences for HKDL.

    I am willing to bet...five or six years from now...you will be visiting Shanghai DL and telling us that it is sooooo much better than WDW, just like you do with HKDL, even though I believe you were against the park in HK being built.
    Last edited by tasman; 12-02-2009 at 05:32 PM.
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  14. #29

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    Re: Why oh why???

    Quote Originally Posted by CMHusband View Post
    Frankly, I'm sick of sending everything we do well overseas. (especially China) Its an AMERICAN icon, keep it American. Let the Chineese invent and build their own amusement parks.

    I've never been to a foreign Disney park, but somehow due to the culture differences, I don't think they will ever measure up to the bar we have set here in terms of friendly service and the overall guest experience that cast members here create.
    I love MY Disneyland, but none of the Disney parks can measure up to Tokyo Disney Resort when it comes to quality guest experiences. I hate to admit it, but Disneyland Resort in Anaheim has lost most of it's charm when it comes to great guest service. My apologies to the few friends who work there, but even they would agree with me. I think it has to do with overall job satisfaction and morale.

    First, Anaheim needs to not be so lax when it comes to CM costume rules. Since when is it friendly or theme appropriate to allow CMs to wear their Raybans, carry their Coach purses or text their friends on their Blackberries while "on stage"? Also, I can't tell you how many times I have seen Anaheim CMs wearing their costumes, OUT IN PUBLIC! Tacky. This is a direct result of poor management.

    Also, it wasn't too long ago that DLR was plagued with basic maintenance issues. Bad show was everywhere. I think they only started to clean up after themselves once money started rolling in for the 50th celebration.

    Finally, the merchandise sucks. Lots of items are now being branded with the generic WDW/DL badge. Bo~ring. TDR has everyone beat in this aspect and HKDL's merchandise offerings weren't too shabby either. It helps that everything is less expensive in HKDL!

    I don't mind the idea of another Disney park in China. I just hope they build a bigger park (in comparison with HKDL) with different ideas for lands, so that it gives people a real reason to visit (no Toy Story Land please, unless they do it right). I doubt this will happen though. I'm personally hoping for them to build Beast's castle, but I'm not holding my breath. Oh, and I may need to hold my breath when they finally complete it because the pollution sucks in China. My proposal: Build the new SDL under a big dome and market it as the first Disney park to be fully enclosed.

  15. #30

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    Re: Why oh why???

    I, too, and worried about this new park. All of the Current Disney parks, (with the exception of much of the Tokyo Disney Resort), need some help. They may not be failing, but Disney needs to get back to Walt. Disney did not make billions by thinking "We're gonna make so much money on this new park!!" Walt went in with his dreams, and carried them out with QUALITY and magic, and that's what made the money. Disney used to know how to make money, and they did it amazingly. If they really want to make money, they need to get back to how it originally was.

    I'd also really really hate to ever see a Disney Park close. and this is bound to happen if Disney just keeps opening parks like they're nothing special.

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