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  1. #76

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Just different perspectives I guess. You see potential and give the benefit of the doubt. I see more of the same and don't. We're basing this on plenty of experience, and I don't think either can be faulted for our view.

    I WOULD say we agree to disagree, but I think we agree on a lot more than this thread may indicate!
    Last edited by sarki7; 02-13-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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  2. #77

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by sarki7 View Post
    Just different perspectives I guess. You see potential and give the benefit of the doubt. I see plenty of the same and don't. We're basing this on plenty of experience, and I don't think either can be faulted for our view.

    I WOULD say we agree to disagree, but I think we agree on a lot more than this thread may indicate!
    Actually, I completely agree with that statement!

  3. #78

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Okay, in looking at the Tony Hawk coasters, it certainly looks like SFDK got the cheap end. First of all, according to RCDB:

    The SFSTL, SFFT and SFOT versions are all model 420/4 extended. SFDK's version is model 380/4.

    The St. Louis one certainly looks like the better version as far as where it's at (Grass underneath, etc) but it's also the one with most pictures. So I'm not going to count out the SFOT (that area of the park is nice) and SFFT (the whole park is nice).

    For the SFDK, did they put it where Zonga was??? But yeah, it's obvious it's built on cement and no effort was made to theme the underneath of the ride.

    The other interesting thing is that the SFFT and SFSTL versions opened in 2007, the other two in 2008.

    Here are some more pics of the SFFT version: http://sfftnet.com/attractions.php?id=tonyhawksbigspin The park is built in a rock quarry, so I actually think where they have it works. It has the same entrance as the St. Louis one.

    Some more pics of the SFOT version, looks nice: http://www.sixflags.com/overTexas/ri...ksBigSpin.aspx

    I looked for Pictures of SFDK's version, even on the Six Flags site, they show pics of the SFOT version. But here are pics of the SFDK version. http://www.themeparkreview.com/parks...=46&linkid=340

    I think it's official that SFDK is the red-headed step-child.
    Last edited by sir clinksalot; 02-13-2009 at 08:34 PM.


  4. #79

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    I have no idea what you guys are talking about anymore!!!


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  5. #80

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    I have no idea what you guys are talking about anymore!!!
    About different theming schemes of basically the same ride at different parks.

    SFStL = Six Flags St. Louis
    SFOT = Six Flags Over Texas
    SFFT = Six Flags Fiesta Texas
    SFDK = Six Flags Discovery Kingom

    All 4 opened up the same ride within the last 2 years (Tony Hawks Big Spin). The SFOT and SFSTL versions look relatively decently themed to a skateboard competetion, etc. The one at SFDK is built on concrete.


  6. #81

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    I have no idea what you guys are talking about anymore!!!
    agreed... this thread started good but then turned into a war over each others opinions and words... and after everyone went back and forth quoting everyone... I just stopped reading.

    Honestly I love coasters, But I also like theming and park experience to go along with them... The coasters at Six Flags Magic Mountain are awesome, but the way the park itself is and the reputation of Six Flags in general makes me just not want to visit... in fact they didnt even pave over the white lines or anything when it comes to Scream... I am sorry but thats just tacky not to mention the location for it was almost like no thought was even put into where to place it other than lets cram another coaster into the parking lot and try and beat Cedar Point for the most coasters records and have another B&M in our park with the typical B&M track layout and inversions... Not to mention Scream is built on a parking lot, totally cheesy... At least some trees, maybe some concrete and a nice few oversized items would look better... I honestly could make better Coasters in Roller Coaster Tycoon than Scream... Granted Cedar Fair parks are not much better and they did rip out lots of stuff from previous owners as in the case of Knotts... but I actually prefer Knotts over Six Flags as the park in itself has a good mix of stuff for all thrill levels so my non coaster riding friends can also enjoy a good time while I am on the coasters.

    Not to mention Cedar Fair does a lot better with their coasters than Six Flags IMO! From viewing the coaster tracks and layouts of Cedar Fair coasters vs. Six Flags... Cedar Fair knows what they are doing.

    Still though it would be sad to see Six Flags go under but if it does I hope they dont close Magic Mountain
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  7. #82

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by sir clinksalot View Post
    For the SFDK, did they put it where Zonga was??? But yeah, it's obvious it's built on cement and no effort was made to theme the underneath of the ride.
    My only trip to the park was last summer and to me it looked like they placed it in what used to be part of the parking lot. In fact, I remember seeing some handicap spaces on the ground within the fencing and immediately thought of Scream at MM.

    Some other thoughts about some of what I have read here:

    1) I would guess that Knott's was having some economic problems or the Knott family wouldn't have sold it. I think Cedar Fair realized that they had to change the direction, but had a serious problem with the fact that the land that they own is pretty small. To me, Perilous Plunge was a dumb idea in that it takes up so much space and eliminated a lot of the theme that was in that area, but I think that was done before CF bought the park. I also wonder if it would have been better for them to expand the theme park instead of building Soak City. I like the water park, but it is only open for a small portion of the year. From what I've read, I think that without the Holoween Haunt, Knott's wouldn't exist anymore as that is what makes the park profitable.

    2) Six Flags fatal flaw may be the mistakes that Premier Parks made. The chain was cash flow positive last year, but the interest on debt is crushing. Why would any park need two major coasters (X and Deja Vu) built within the same year? In fact, without the technical problems encountered on X, they would have opened in the same season! They did the same thing to Geauga Lake, and that park never recovered.

    3) How do you theme a roller coaster correctly? Even Disney Strikes out in most cases. Smaller coasters like the Go Coaster seem to be easier, but Big Thunder Mountain trades theme for the quality of the ride. California Screaming trades the quality of the ride for the quality of the theme. To me, the only way to adequately theme Mulhulland Madness is to enclose it like Space Mountain, Exterminator at Kennywood or Disaster Transport at Cedar Point. If the ride is big enough, it doesn't need a theme. As has been said elsewhere, the queues for Batman and Superman used to be great, but have been left in disrepair. The Riddler was also good, but it is in even worse shape than the other two. The last time I was there, the lighting fixtures were still turning, but the lights weren't on.

  8. #83

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by DifrntDrmr View Post
    Some other thoughts about some of what I have read here:

    1) I would guess that Knott's was having some economic problems or the Knott family wouldn't have sold it. I think Cedar Fair realized that they had to change the direction, but had a serious problem with the fact that the land that they own is pretty small. To me, Perilous Plunge was a dumb idea in that it takes up so much space and eliminated a lot of the theme that was in that area, but I think that was done before CF bought the park. I also wonder if it would have been better for them to expand the theme park instead of building Soak City. I like the water park, but it is only open for a small portion of the year. From what I've read, I think that without the Holoween Haunt, Knott's wouldn't exist anymore as that is what makes the park profitable.
    I think the best chance for expansion is south. the removal of the rapids ride would give them an acces point to the large parking area behind and south of the hotel. There would be no need to have a large street seperating the park into two sections. The land west of Knott's behind perilous plunge should be developed to accomodate parking space properly.

  9. #84

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    I think the best chance for expansion is south. the removal of the rapids ride would give them an acces point to the large parking area behind and south of the hotel. There would be no need to have a large street seperating the park into two sections. The land west of Knott's behind perilous plunge should be developed to accomodate parking space properly.
    On the rare occasion where the park is busy, most of the parking spaces are used up. Therefore, unless they build a Disney-style parking garage they can not use any of these for expansion, especially if that is going to bring in more people.

  10. #85

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by DifrntDrmr View Post
    On the rare occasion where the park is busy, most of the parking spaces are used up. Therefore, unless they build a Disney-style parking garage they can not use any of these for expansion, especially if that is going to bring in more people.
    True and during Haunt... that serves as Haunt Parking... because yeah... as we found... for Haunt... we parked back there and omg, when we came out, that whole parking lot was full and I am sure all the others were also!
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  11. #86

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by tamasurvivor View Post
    agreed... this thread started good but then turned into a war over each others opinions and words... and after everyone went back and forth quoting everyone... I just stopped reading.
    The debate was over if the chain was getting better or not, and what people saw as evidence one way or the other. Scream is an example of one part (that was talked about) but is also as I pointed out not the first time that something like that occurred (Shockwave at Six Flags Great America had the same issue from 1988 to 2003, ironically, the same year as Scream was installed) and was done under the previous management heads, which I think were extraordinarily inept. While the new management doesn't have the ability to wave a wand and change it, they seem to not make as many strange decisions.

    Although, as was then counter-pointed-out, Tony Hawk in SFDK seems to be rather unthemed and barren too.

    The rest of it was all details supporting and defending these arguments. If you are really interested in the history / potential future of the chain, it's worth a read.

    Quote Originally Posted by DifrntDrmr View Post
    1) I would guess that Knott's was having some economic problems or the Knott family wouldn't have sold it. I think Cedar Fair realized that they had to change the direction, but had a serious problem with the fact that the land that they own is pretty small.
    I think that the Knott family just wanted to sell the parks. Disney had actually been looking at buying it, but the family decided to sell to Cedar Fair because they thought they would keep more of the flavor.

    Cedar Fair as a company knows how to run carnival style thrill parks and is the best at the world at doing so. Knotts was really their antithesis, as it had very few thrills and was highly themed. It seems to me they just applied their method that works in other places and it has failed because they failed to understand the park itself.

    2) Six Flags fatal flaw may be the mistakes that Premier Parks made. The chain was cash flow positive last year, but the interest on debt is crushing. Why would any park need two major coasters (X and Deja Vu) built within the same year? In fact, without the technical problems encountered on X, they would have opened in the same season! They did the same thing to Geauga Lake, and that park never recovered.
    Exactly. The Premier idea was that by opening up multiple coasters like that, they would make a huge local splash and would make the parks remain a must-visit location.

    It did generally work for one year, but the lack of infastructure additions is what crushed those same parks the following year.

    3) How do you theme a roller coaster correctly? Even Disney Strikes out in most cases.
    Exactly. Six Flags (under Time Warner) did the themes that gave the backstory for the rides that you were about to encounter, but then did not follow up with the upkeep on them. It's nearly impossible to theme a ride throughout the course, with the exception of Alton Towers, I've never seen a ride that during the ride itself I thought the theme carried over really well. Even the IoA coasters which are quite good only out the lift / launch.

  12. #87

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by tamasurvivor View Post
    agreed... this thread started good but then turned into a war over each others opinions and words... and after everyone went back and forth quoting everyone... I just stopped reading.
    "War"?? That was probably one of the most civil discussions about Six Flags the internet has ever seen!

    Honestly I love coasters, But I also like theming and park experience to go along with them... The coasters at Six Flags Magic Mountain are awesome, but the way the park itself is and the reputation of Six Flags in general makes me just not want to visit... in fact they didnt even pave over the white lines or anything when it comes to Scream... Granted Cedar Fair parks are not much better and they did rip out lots of stuff from previous owners as in the case of Knotts... but I actually prefer Knotts over Six Flags as the park in itself has a good mix of stuff for all thrill levels so my non coaster riding friends can also enjoy a good time while I am on the coasters.
    That's pretty much all I've been trying to say. Even with the modest improvements SOME people have seen at SOME parks, it still doesn't match up with what Cedarfair has been, even at a place like Knott's - even if things have gotten worse. Maybe someday a rising Six Flags will overtake a falling Cedarfair, but in my opinion that day hasn't come yet.

    Not to mention Cedar Fair does a lot better with their coasters than Six Flags IMO! From viewing the coaster tracks and layouts of Cedar Fair coasters vs. Six Flags... Cedar Fair knows what they are doing.
    I'm really not sure what you're referring to here. Cedarfair has done a nice job with their coasters over the years, though most notably at Cedar Point. But Six Flags all-but-singlehandedly garnered this 2nd golden age of coasters, and while you may have your personal coaster preference - to say Cedarfair knows what they are doing and Six Flags does not, when it comes to coasters, seems completely unfounded.

    Still though it would be sad to see Six Flags go under but if it does I hope they dont close Magic Mountain
    I can only imagine that if Hard Rock Park was saved, SFMM will likely survive. Then again, I can understand the fear - SFAW is a sad reminder of how cruel this business can be.
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  13. #88

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by sarki7 View Post


    I'm really not sure what you're referring to here. Cedarfair has done a nice job with their coasters over the years, though most notably at Cedar Point. But Six Flags all-but-singlehandedly garnered this 2nd golden age of coasters, and while you may have your personal coaster preference - to say Cedarfair knows what they are doing and Six Flags does not, when it comes to coasters, seems completely unfounded.
    Well that was based on personal preference... I like the rides at Magic Mountain too but when you compare some of the stuff that Cedar Fair has built and stack it against Six Flags which does offer some good choices... I tend to prefer the coasters Cedar Fair is producing for their parks... I am probably basing this off of personal preference though

    For example I saw a video of a B&M Floorless called Hydra which was at a Cedar Fair park somewhere and I thought it was really nifty and neat that the coaster started out with a barrel roll right before the lift hill even started. Thats something I havent seen in a while and something kinda awesome to see.

    Not to mention Cedar Point is home to one of the few Giga Coasters in the world that broke so many records [Millenium Force], They have Magnum XL which from what I hear is a classic and if it wasnt for that we wouldnt be seeing Hyper Coasters and now Giga Coasters all over. Granted this is their flagship park, but from having this place and basing their coaster building model off what they have in there its safe to say they know what they are doing when building coasters.

    Not to mention from viewing videos of the newest Cedar Point coaster Maverick, this is a prime example of using some bit of theme on a coaster... It doesnt have to be drastic, big, or anything out of this world since the ride and theme in itself is the coaster... but having a lake under you in a few parts, some minor rockwork along the way, and a dark tunnel for the launch halfway through is a lot better than a generic plot of land housing a coaster. Not to mention, it just looks amazing. Just imagine what they could do to Scream if they were to rip out the parking lot from under it and instead plant some trees, add a little pond, and maybe add some funky looking cut out sign things around the coaster that read "Now Scream"... or "SCREAM" near the end of the coaster in the areas that can be seen but still dont intrude too much... anything is better than generic parking lot.

    And you are right that Six Flags does have Cedar Fair beat in height and speed for having Kingda Ka... but I was reading somewhere that the difference between that and Top Thrill Dragster is still a matter of preference because Kingda Ka uses shoulder Restraints while Top Thrill dragster does not.... and some people prefer the more open feeling of Top Thrill Dragster while others prefer the experience of Kingda Ka.
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  14. #89

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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by tamasurvivor View Post
    For example I saw a video of a B&M Floorless called Hydra which was at a Cedar Fair park somewhere and I thought it was really nifty and neat that the coaster started out with a barrel roll right before the lift hill even started. Thats something I havent seen in a while and something kinda awesome to see.

    And you are right that Six Flags does have Cedar Fair beat in height and speed for having Kingda Ka... but I was reading somewhere that the difference between that and Top Thrill Dragster is still a matter of preference because Kingda Ka uses shoulder Restraints while Top Thrill dragster does not.... and some people prefer the more open feeling of Top Thrill Dragster while others prefer the experience of Kingda Ka.
    Unfortunately, that barrell roll right before the lift hill is the best part of that ride. It's just kinda ... blah. The ride is at Dorney in Allentown PA.

    The only "Cedar Fair" parks I've been to are Knott's and Dorney (and Great America before it was Cedar Fair). Honestly, other than the coasters they have been putting at Cedar Point, I haven't really seen a coaster at one of their parks that I need to ride.

    Although, the new woodie they are building at Worlds of Fun looks pretty sweet.

    I thought Kinda Ka was great, but a one-trick pony.


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    Re: Six Flags in more trouble???

    Quote Originally Posted by tamasurvivor View Post
    Well that was based on personal preference... I like the rides at Magic Mountain too but when you compare some of the stuff that Cedar Fair has built and stack it against Six Flags which does offer some good choices... I tend to prefer the coasters Cedar Fair is producing for their parks... I am probably basing this off of personal preference though

    For example I saw a video of a B&M Floorless called Hydra which was at a Cedar Fair park somewhere and I thought it was really nifty and neat that the coaster started out with a barrel roll right before the lift hill even started. Thats something I havent seen in a while and something kinda awesome to see.
    Well, not to make this about the coasters themselves, but...

    I wouldn't put too much stock in what you see and what you read when it comes to coasters. Preferences are such a personal thing and you really need to ride to be able to make any serious judgement. For example, Hydra, in my experience, was quite disappointing. When the pre-lift inversion was a let-down, more uncomfortable than fun. But when looking at Batman Knight Flight, a Six Flags floorless (Now Dominator at KD), you've got an impressive experience, probably the best of its kind.

    So when it comes to preferences, ride and see for yourself, but you may want to steer clear of making sweeping judgements until then.

    BTW - I'm one of those people who prefer TTD to KK, though both are fun 20 seconds.
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