Six Flags in more trouble???

[sir clinksalot]

According to Yahoo, and the "15 companies that might not survive 2009", Six Flags is listed along with companies like Rite Aid, Chrysler, Sbarro and Blockbuster.

15 Companies That Might Not Survive 2009 - Yahoo! Finance

With consumers shutting their wallets and corporate revenues plunging, the business landscape may start to resemble a graveyard in 2009. Household names like Circuit City and Linens 'n Things have already perished. And chances are, those bankruptcies were just an early warning sign of a much broader epidemic.

Moody's Investors Service, for instance, predicts that the default rate on corporate bonds - which foretells bankruptcies - will be three times higher in 2009 than in 2008, and 15 times higher than in 2007. That could equate to 25 significant bankruptcies per month.

We examined ratings from Moody's and data from other sources to develop a short list of potential victims that ought to be familiar to most consumers. Many of these firms are in industries directly hit by the slowdown in consumer spending, such as retail, automotive, housing and entertainment.

Six Flags. (SIX; about 30,000 employees; stock down 84%). This theme-park operator has been losing money for several years, and selling off properties to try to pay down debt and get back into the black. But the ride may end prematurely. Moody's expects cash flow to be negative in 2009, and if consumers aren't spending during the peak summer season, that could imperil the company's ability to pay debts coming due later this year and in 2010.

[Dustysage]

I've been wondering about Six Flags and Cedar Fair. The bad economy can't be helping their debt problems. And a lack of funds and ability to borrow will keep them from making a lot of the big changes they need to lure in the bigger spending family market. Both companies have suffered from focusing on Teens and extreme attractions for too long at the expense of families, and now that they are trying to address those concerns, they may not have the time they need to make sufficient changes.

For the sake of the amusement industry, I hope Six Flags doesn't fail. But I think they may very well be on a path to derailment without sufficient brakes to stop the speeding train.

The only positive is that the company could possibly break back up into regional parks with individual parks being sold to local investors. Many of the parks in the Six Flags and Cedar Fair chains were quite popular before they were taken over and in many cases ruined by their new owners.

[sir clinksalot]

I dunno, with people not traveling I'm not sure if Six Flags won't see more "Local" people. Of course, as the influx of Disneyland AP's has shown us, an increase in attendance due to locals with Season or Annual Passes doesn't always equal more income when it comes to food and merchandising.

[Dustysage]

But focusing on "Families" does. Teens have a more limited income and don't spend as much on merchandise and food. Families come in larger groups and spend a significant amount on food and merchandise. Six Flags may have cornered the extreme coaster market, but at what cost to its bottom line? They turned a beloved family park into a gang hangout in LA. And ruined other local parks around the country.

[Mr. Yeti]

That's a shame. I never had the chance to visit a Six Flags park, but do want to one day. I hope they can stay in business.

[The Disneylander]

Yes, Six Flags have been in deep straits since a couple of years ago. However, they have been steadily improving since the coming of new management. They turned a profit for the first time in a while last year, if I remember correctly.

[sarki7]

A profit for the year, yes - but still not enough to pay down the interest on their multi-billion dollar debt. They continue to circle the drain, and while I hope of a day when local operators can buy parks back one-by-one, I fear too many will suffer the fate of Astroworld.

Originally Posted by Dustysage

Many of the parks in the Six Flags and Cedar Fair chains were quite popular before they were taken over and in many cases ruined by their new owners.

I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable lumping in Cedar Fair with the likes of Six Flags. Obviously the CF chain has more in common with SF than Disney, but there is still a noticable difference (i.e., improvement) in the overall guest experience.

Until they went all Premier Parks and bought up the former Paramount Parks, that is. We shall see.

[Uncle Bob]

This is too bad, they definitely did this to themselves in many respects, but it's too bad that just as they are starting to turn things around the economy had to go so sour. I don't know if they could have got themselves out of trouble even in a good economy, but at least they could have probably gotten a better price on assets they'll have to sale and possibly more credit at better rates. This will only make Disney more likely to rest of their laurals not having much real competition.

[sir clinksalot]

Originally Posted by sarki7

I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable lumping in Cedar Fair with the likes of Six Flags. Obviously the CF chain has more in common with SF than Disney, but there is still a noticable difference (i.e., improvement) in the overall guest experience.

You obviously never visited Knott's before and after CF bought the park. I'd MUCH rather spend a day at Magic Mountain than Knott's these days.

[sediment]

Likely scenario is that they get bought at a deep discount (from previous sale) by an investment group that thinks they know how to run park, but will also fall to the same poor business strategy that has been causing the poor financials for, oh, about 14 years now. We can blame Pressler for the killing of SFMM and Knott's, in a roundabout way.

[sarki7]

Originally Posted by sir clinksalot

You obviously never visited Knott's before and after CF bought the park. I'd MUCH rather spend a day at Magic Mountain than Knott's these days.

No, my first visit to Knott's was in 2004.

I would also prefer to spend a day at SFMM than Knott's -but that has nothing to do with park operations and guest experience and everything to do with the coaster collection. But that's just me.

Besides, I wasn't saying that the CF parks are better as CF parks than they were when they were independent. I was saying the current CF parks are generally better than the current SF parks.

[sir clinksalot]

Originally Posted by sarki7

No, my first visit to Knott's was in 2004.

I would also prefer to spend a day at SFMM than Knott's -but that has nothing to do with park operations and guest experience and everything to do with the coaster collection. But that's just me.

Besides, I wasn't saying that the CF parks are better as CF parks than they were when they were independent. I was saying the current CF parks are generally better than the current SF parks.

Hmmm, that's a tough one for me.

The only CF parks I've been to are Knott's, Dorney and Great America. I'd take at least 4 or 5 Six Flags parks over those.

[sarki7]

Originally Posted by sir clinksalot

Hmmm, that's a tough one for me.

The only CF parks I've been to are Knott's, Dorney and Great America. I'd take at least 4 or 5 Six Flags parks over those.

I will readily admit the CF chain has been heading downhill as of late - which seems to have coincided with every new park they've taken on.

It's just hard for me to say they've sunken as low as Six Flags. Any chain that operates a park like Cedar Point is certainly doing something right. The top parks in the SF chain - probably SFGAdv and SFGAm really pale in comparison. And I'm not just walking coaster-wise.

[SafariRob]

Teens have a more limited income and don't spend as much on merchandise and food. Families come in larger groups and spend a significant amount on food and merchandise. Six Flags may have cornered the extreme coaster market, but at what cost to its bottom line? They turned a beloved family park into a gang hangout in LA. And ruined other local parks around the country.

Well said, Dustysage.

Six Flags is paying for years of bad decisions. Magic Mountain decided to ditch the family image and build one roller coaster after another. It's a shame, too. When I was a kid my family rotated between Disneyland, Magic Mountain and Knott's Berry Farm. As a father, I would think twice before taking my family to Magic Mountain now days.

Magic Mountain changed a lot between the mid-90's and mid 00's. Dustysage kind of stole my thunder but I will reiterate it. Unless you are a teenager or a gang banger, there's not much reason to be there. Very sad.

The same goes for Six Flags Marine World/Discovery Kingdom. It's really a shame to see what has happened to that place. You can barely even move around inside the park. It is absolutely flooded with troubled locals who paid their $69.95 for an annual pass and, by golly, they are going to get their money's worth!

[sir clinksalot]

Originally Posted by sarki7

I will readily admit the CF chain has been heading downhill as of late - which seems to have coincided with every new park they've taken on.

It's just hard for me to say they've sunken as low as Six Flags. Any chain that operates a park like Cedar Point is certainly doing something right. The top parks in the SF chain - probably SFGAdv and SFGAm really pale in comparison. And I'm not just walking coaster-wise.

Maybe it's because I haven't been to Cedar Point yet.

But I LOVE SFGAdv, SFFT and SFOG.