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  1. #511

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    The existing rapid express bus aka El Rojo goes down Wilshire but now they're eliminating street parking to accomodate bus only lanes. Once the LA sections are done, Santa Monica and BH can install compatible lanes in their own city limits.

    But, will the Wilshire subway be cut and cover or completely tunnelled with a giant digging machine?

  2. #512

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    The existing rapid express bus aka El Rojo goes down Wilshire but now they're eliminating street parking to accomodate bus only lanes. Once the LA sections are done, Santa Monica and BH can install compatible lanes in their own city limits.

    But, will the Wilshire subway be cut and cover or completely tunnelled with a giant digging machine?
    Depends on the soil conditions - Tunnel Boring Machines do better with rock and hard-pack strata, and can't deal with sandy running soil worth anything. For cutting under the Santa Monica Mountains they are great, because sandstone cuts like butter and (if it isn't fractured) stays in place fine till the concrete tunnel liner segments are installed.

    You would have to bore holes and pump the sandy or loose ground where the tunnel will go full of cement or grout to firm it up before the TBM gets there. Works fine when you get a short band of sand between two rocky areas, not so good for long distances.

    If it's sandy, and there aren't a lot of subsurface utilities to deal with, cut and cover is far cheaper. Dig a big trench, drop in precast tunnel rings or panels (to make a square tunnel), bolt them together, and backfill.

    Call in some Sand Hogs from New York for a consultation, they've been dealing with this exact problem for 150-plus years.

    --<< Bruce >>--
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  3. #513

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Well, the red line from Union Station to NoHo was built by Californians.

    My understanding is the most difficult part will be digging through the La Brea / Fairfax areas with methane and who knows what else (tar pits?) down there.

  4. #514

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    Well, the red line from Union Station to NoHo was built by Californians.

    My understanding is the most difficult part will be digging through the La Brea / Fairfax areas with methane and who knows what else (tar pits?) down there.
    Prezacly. They used a Tunnel Boring Machine for the Red Line primarily to deal with the rock under the mountains - and if you remember they had a heck of a time through the softer soil in Hollywood.

    There was that big cave-in where Hollywood Boulevard proper sank unevenly between two and four feet for about a block... Then they switched to Cut and Cover for a ways.

    Around the Tar Pits is likely to be alluvial soils, meaning soft adobe and sand. There's bedrock under there somewhere, but how far down is a mystery. Century City, Westwood, Brentwood and the Wilshire Glitter Gulch
    - Look for clusters of high rise buildings, they need reachable bedrock or they can't go more than four or five stories. There are high-rises to the east of the La Brea Tar Pits, but nothing much to the west IIRC. If they could, they surely would.

    Or we have the big earthquake, soil liquefaction kicks in, and the tall building built on a foundation of chocolate pudding (without enough foundation) simply falls over. That would be bad, so they try and avoid it.

    --<< Bruce >>--
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  5. #515

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    I wonder if sediment will like that idea.
    I suggest using some other street without as much caché.
    Try heading northwest on San Vincente, west on Burton, to Santa Monica Blvd, then back on to Wilshire. I believe that is some kind of right-of-way.

    The other option is to go southwest on Schumacher to Olympic, almost to the sea.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  6. #516

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    But we want the transit where the people are: On Wilshire.

  7. #517

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    True - but the "Subway to the Sea" is going to get to the folks along Wilshire - eventually...

    Look at the old Red Car route map, and look at other places where there's an easily reestablished ROW and lots of population living near them in medium or high density housing, and start thinking about how to reestablish them.

    San Vicente has to be one of them, they didn't waste the space on a 25' wide median without a really good reason. And it passes the 'even grade' and 'sweeping turns' tests that mean a light-rail line used to go down the middle.

    And Santa Monica Blvd's Red Car ROW was used up to drastically widen the road through West LA, Beverly Hills used it all up through their downtown for city parking structures, and then it went into the middle of the road through West Hollywood and on to Downtown LA.

    Just keep Judge Doom and the Weasels from buying it up to milk it dry and shut it down - so they could sell cars & buses, and tires, and gasoline & diesel fuel. Once was one time too many.

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  8. #518

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    I thought sediment was suggesting a radical deviation from plans for the Wilshire subway extension.

  9. #519

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    A Subway to the Sea or Not? Looking at the Realities of the Westside Subway

    Ridership estimates basically show that the bigger the project, the more riders it will gain. A subway that goes down Wilshire and stops at UCLA (Alt 1) will have 72,200 trips a day. By adding one more stop West of the 405 (Alt 2) it adds another 8,000 trips to the extension. Pushing further West to "the sea" (Alt 3) would mean a total of 105,000 trips a day. By adding a West Hollywood spur (Alt 5), trips would increase to 120,000, but adding a West Hollywood spur to a system that only stops after the 405 (Alt 4) lowers trips significantly to 93,000 a day, which indicates that "to the sea" portion makes a difference.

    But more trips do not necessarily compute to a better project when it comes to federal funding, which partially emphasizes cost effectiveness. The three Wilshire-only Alternatives are all close to falling within federal guidelines while the two West Hollywood ones could threaten the funding.

    That funding is especially important because Metro's long range plan sets aside $4.2 billion, which part of it assumes money from the federal "New Starts" grant program.

    Two of the alternatives -- Wilshire to UCLA or just West of the 405 -- cost below $4.2 billion, while taking Wilshire to the Sea or adding a West Hollywood spur shoots the prices up between $5.7 and $8.4 billion.

    The voter-approved Measure R sales tax will also help fund the project, which if was a Wilshire-only subway to UCLA, would open in phases...
    A Subway to the Sea or Not? Looking at the Realities of the Westside Subway - LAist

  10. #520

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    High-Speed Rivalry Picks Up Steam

    As Foreign Operators and Equipment Makers Chase $8 Billion in U.S. Rail Projects, Amtrak's Role Remains Uncertain


    High-Speed Rail Rivalry Gains Steam - WSJ.com

  11. #521

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    I thought sediment was suggesting a radical deviation from plans for the Wilshire subway extension.
    My alternatives were for the busway down Wilshire, which will get bogged down in Beverly Hills in its current path. I take it that the busway would be temporary, until the subway is built?? No need for both.
    Anyway, people walking a block or two to work or shopping is good for them. We should encourage people (and not just nobodies) to go "walking in LA...."
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  12. #522

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    No, Wilshire's density supports BOTH believe it or not, I think they want people to get off the orange colored buses and onto more red ones.

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    No, Wilshire's density supports BOTH believe it or not, I think they want people to get off the orange colored buses and onto more red ones.
    I'd never travel on Wilshire, given all the options. Olympic is way nicer, all the way into downtown. Beverly, 3rd, etc. All better than Wilshire.
    I'm never in that area these days, though.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  14. #524

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    whoops, I guess I never got around to posting my proposed Orange County light rail system. I call it The ROCC or Rapid Orange County Connection.

    Following are two maps. They make reference to some LA Metro Rail lines that don't exist but I have thought of. Also, I have not thought of specific stations. The plan is largely centered around the future ARTIC.

    Here's is a geographically accurate map on Scribble Maps: (if you zoom in some lines may not be lined up exactly to where I would have it travel but from the view I linked, it is pretty clear.)
    LINK

    Here's a system map I drew that is not geographically accurate but shows the cities served:

    Also keep in mind that I do not live in orange county and do not have any data on pop. density/income so I don't know how high ridership would be for these lines. I just tried to create a plan that would evenly cover the county and provide appropriate connections to Metrolink/Amtrak/CAHSR/LA Metro Rail/airports.

  15. #525

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    Re: Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

    Thanks for sharing that, I wish Orange County had the political will to develop even one light rail line that would connect into the LA system.

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