Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

[Bruce Bergman]

Really? I think that will be the most difficult one to build. So much urbanization between them.

Thinking more like, say, SF to Modesto or LA to Bakersfield.

As good a place to start as any, or at least be in the first phase of construction - If they can't get the route through the congested LA / Orange County corridor, why continue with the rest of the system? You would end up with a gap to bridge.

It would be the sorry state that AMTRAK is in now, where certain historic routes can't be run with trains for various reasons - either the track washed out or deteriorated to an unsafe state, and there's not enough freight traffic on the route to pay for rebuilding the rails (and AMTRAK doesn't have the money to start rebuilding tracks), so they run buses instead of trains.

--<< Bruce >>--

[sediment]

As good a place to start as any, or at least be in the first phase of construction - If they can't get the route through the congested LA / Orange County corridor, why continue with the rest of the system? You would end up with a gap to bridge.

Alright. Make a route. Non-stop. No need for this to be some commmuter train. (Unless a stop is at Commerce Casino!) Tons of right-of-way. Trip needs to be as fast or faster than driving, which implies "not-at-grade" at lots of points. I'll help. It will be a collaborative effort.
Option #1: along the existing AMTRAK and Metrolink tracks. Lots of at-grade crossings and overpasses.
Option #2: ???


Next leg will be to Burbank Airport. Easy one-stop (maybe two) from an airport to DL? I think it would be pretty popular. No driving required for a tourist in SoCal? Wonderful.

[Bruce Bergman]

Alright. Make a route. Non-stop. No need for this to be some commmuter train. (Unless a stop is at Commerce Casino!) Tons of right-of-way. Trip needs to be as fast or faster than driving, which implies "not-at-grade" at lots of points. I'll help. It will be a collaborative effort.
Option #1: along the existing AMTRAK and Metrolink tracks. Lots of at-grade crossings and overpasses.
Option #2: ???

Next leg will be to Burbank Airport. Easy one-stop (maybe two) from an airport to DL? I think it would be pretty popular. No driving required for a tourist in SoCal? Wonderful.

Option #3 - Follow the existing ROW, widen it where possible, and build a cut-and-cover tunnel where you can't. Eliminate all the grade crossings - Half the street crossings can easily be eliminated, the others become either a bridge over the rail lines or a tunnel under. Or put the train tracks in the tunnel and let the street stay at grade.

Where you have room, go 4 tracks wide at grade (or in an "Alameda Corridor" style trench) - 2 for HSR and (backup) Local Passenger Only, 2 for freight and (primary) local passenger. And one roadway overpass or underpass every mile or so to clear them all.

AFAICT even at the choke points the ROW is at the least wide enough (40' or so) that they can shove the at-grade tracks to one side, build the Cut and Cover tunnel on the other side. Then you put the freight trains in the tunnel, trench the other side, and make a second totally seperate tunnel. (Yes, a few crossover ports for emergency access, and a set of crossing switches outside the stations.)

And once the two tunnels underneath are done, they can build two more tracks on top at grade - Metrolink and local station platforms at grade, and the freight trains use the above ground. The tunnels are electrified, and reserved for the HSR except in emergencies - then you can shunt the Metrolink service down there while they clean up the freight train crash/derail.

Oh, at each local above-ground passenger platform or station there is a backup underground platform along the HSR tracks too - but the doors are kept locked except when they need to use it. Gives a convenient evacuation point. Designed flexibility.

Oh, and all rail lines get electrified - but all passenger trains have a small diesel generator set on board, the freights pull one combination locomotive with a full size engine. Enough power for passenger consists to limp to the next station after the Earthquake or Power Failure, enough for the freights to get to a siding or a safe stop.

This stuff isn't Rocket Science, you just have to think it through.

--<< Bruce >>--

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Not rocket science, civil engineering, which you obviously know a lot about!

Everything I ever learned in life was in this thread, lol.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Via the San Gabriel Valley Tribune: " Just over a week after the groundbreaking for the Gold Line light rail extension from Pasadena to Azusa, the commuter line's builder could get another $650,000 toward taking the tracks all the way to Montclair.

The money was included in a funding bill by Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Pasadena...The funding would pay for the preparation of environmental documents needed to begin construction on 12 miles of rail from Azusa to Montclair." This second phase of the Foothill extension which would reach Montclair and quite possibly Ontario Airport, has long been talked about.

· Gold Line light rail extension gets more funding [San Gabriel Valley Tribune]

http://la.curbed.com/uploads/2006-01-goldline.jpg

[sediment]

Option #3...

Sounds more like a fancy option #1.
I was thinking about other routes.
If we agree with the current ROW route as optimal, then let's start constructing. You get a pickaxe, and I'll bring the dynamite.

[sediment]

http://la.curbed.com/uploads/2006-01-goldline.jpg

They should start planning the extension to Ontario Airport now. I think we've done some preliminary work here in this thread.

Gold Line will be following old Pacific Electric ROW (now a bike trail of similar name)?
Euclid Avenue (north/south) has a nice median to use to get to the ROW that runs right alongside Ontario Airrport. I'm sure there will be lots of opposition to that.

[Bruce Bergman]

Sounds more like a fancy option #1.
I was thinking about other routes.
If we agree with the current ROW route as optimal, then let's start constructing. You get a pickaxe, and I'll bring the dynamite.

You'll get the dynamite? In your dreams... They've really tightened up on all that stuff. Blasting caps and other initiators, Detcord and fuses, "high purity nitrate compounds" and other "system components" are darned hard to get - even with all the proper permits and licenses.

You might be able to get away with blasting the trench open in a rural or industrial area with enough blasting mats (basically a huge rug woven out of 1" or larger steel cable) and tire mats to stop the flying rock, but no blasting when you're 50' or 100' away from occupied homes...

No, if they hit rock it'll have to be dealt with the old fashioned way - some sort of a breaker hammer. The hydraulic ones that go on the boom arm of an excavator would be optimal.

The current ROW might not be optimal, but it's there and it's been used for trains continuously for 100+ years - the NIMBY's can complain about the "added noise", but they won't get any traction.

If you try a "new" route reusing an old rail/trolley ROW that would work better for current commute patterns, or blaze a brand new trail across unused land, the NIMBYs will be out in force fighting it on general principles. It might have been a Red Car or LaRY Yellow Line tracks, or an old freight line that was abandoned in the 1930's, 40's, 50's... But that was then, now it's going to be touted by the NIMBYs as "a pristine greenbelt that should be left as a nature preserve" or other such garbage.

You might be able to eventually re-route the line, but if there's any even semi-credible resistance to the "new" route it's going to add several years and several millions in costs to get around the protesters and get it done.

--<< Bruce >>--

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Also it's in San Bernardino County, and although LA owns Ontario Airport, I don't think the LA MTA has jurisdiction outside LA County.

[sediment]

You'll get the dynamite? In your dreams... They've really tightened up on all that stuff. Blasting caps and other initiators, Detcord and fuses, "high purity nitrate compounds" and other "system components" are darned hard to get - even with all the proper permits and licenses.

You might be able to get away with blasting the trench open in a rural or industrial area with enough blasting mats (basically a huge rug woven out of 1" or larger steel cable) and tire mats to stop the flying rock, but no blasting when you're 50' or 100' away from occupied homes...

No, if they hit rock it'll have to be dealt with the old fashioned way - some sort of a breaker hammer. The hydraulic ones that go on the boom arm of an excavator would be optimal.

The current ROW might not be optimal, but it's there and it's been used for trains continuously for 100+ years - the NIMBY's can complain about the "added noise", but they won't get any traction.

If you try a "new" route reusing an old rail/trolley ROW that would work better for current commute patterns, or blaze a brand new trail across unused land, the NIMBYs will be out in force fighting it on general principles. It might have been a Red Car or LaRY Yellow Line tracks, or an old freight line that was abandoned in the 1930's, 40's, 50's... But that was then, now it's going to be touted by the NIMBYs as "a pristine greenbelt that should be left as a nature preserve" or other such garbage.

You might be able to eventually re-route the line, but if there's any even semi-credible resistance to the "new" route it's going to add several years and several millions in costs to get around the protesters and get it done.

--<< Bruce >>--

Don't you worry about where I get my dynamite. The important thing is I get to play with it, while you have to do hard work with a pickaxe.

I think we're discussing the HSR. Can't have too many sharp turns. And it wouldn't be for commuters. Non-stop from Union Station to Anaheim. Then non-stop to San Diego. (that's the pie-in-sky goal -- some (every?) town is gonna want a stop).

[sediment]

Also it's in San Bernardino County, and although LA owns Ontario Airport, I don't think the LA MTA has jurisdiction outside LA County.

This fact chokes just about every good idea regarding mass transit in the area.
This just means more negotiations. Or it doesn't get done. History is on the latter's side.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

First phase of Gold Line extension begins on Saturday

First phase of Gold Line extension begins on Saturday - latimes.com

[ClarabellaLA]

If this has been addressed already and I missed it, I apologize. Just a quick tip for anyone going to Disneyland Resort from LA: take Amtrak or Metrolink to Fullerton, not Anaheim. Walk across the parking lot and take the Harbor Boulevard OC Transit bus to D'land. Stops at entrance to Bus Plaza. Much easier than trying to get from Anaheim stadium. A caution tho: last Northbound train is at about 10:20 weeknights.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

/\
Welcome to Micechat and thanks for sharing that, I hope you'll come back to visit us.

[Bruce Bergman]

If this has been addressed already and I missed it, I apologize. Just a quick tip for anyone going to Disneyland Resort from LA: take Amtrak or Metrolink to Fullerton, not Anaheim. Walk across the parking lot and take the Harbor Boulevard OC Transit bus to D'land. Stops at entrance to Bus Plaza. Much easier than trying to get from Anaheim stadium. A caution tho: last Northbound train is at about 10:20 weeknights.

1) Welcome to Micechat!

2) Now you can see why the thread got started - when transit ALMOST runs to the places you need to go, and ALMOST at the times you need it, and ALMOST faster than walking (and nowhere near as fast as driving there) people won't take it unless they are forced to.

It's a simple thing, but you can't even stay late enough for the Disneyland fireworks at 9:25 to about 9:50-ish (or the first show of World Of Color) if you want to (or have to) take public transit home any distance - You can't count on getting out the gates, out to Harbor and a bus stop, on a bus (OCTD 42?) and up to the Fullerton train station by 10:20.

Even staying for First Fantasmic! (9:00 to 9:25) you'd be seriously pressing your luck - try getting out through the crowd watching the fireworks in a hurry...

And if you miss the last train of the night... You just busted your budget big-time - depending on how far, your $10 bus/train trip could easily go over $100 when you call a cab...

TaxiWiz Los Angeles (link) says it would be about $160 (after 15% tip) for me to catch a cab from Disneyland to the Woodland Hills area. Just a hop from Disneyland to LA Union Station (to catch a later night Subway or light rail to continue your trip) is about $80.

Or you have to drop $40 - $80 on a motel room for the night, plus incidentals because you didn't pack for an overnight stay.

--<< Bruce >>--