Mass Transit 2 the Disneyland Resort

[sediment]

HSR ain't gonna happen. Just too expensive. (As I have been stating in this and the prevvious thread.)
The only way it will be built is if the government simply takes away land and forces the costs down with an aggressive bidding process.
You know, like in Japan, China, and Europe.

[PragmaticIdealist]

HSR ain't gonna happen. Just too expensive. (As I have been stating in this and the prevvious thread.)
The only way it will be built is if the government simply takes away land and forces the costs down with an aggressive bidding process.
You know, like in Japan, China, and Europe.

Ugh... Equivalent highway and/or airport capacity is more than twice the cost of high-speed rail. Can we stop with the misinformation campaign?

Every other industrialized country in this world apparently can "afford" high-speed rail, but ours, evidently, is full of too many politicians who are in the pockets of the oil industry. This country will never get its act together as long as we continue allowing moneyed interests to dictate public policy.

[sediment]

You'll have to provide numbers and sources to back up your "misinformation" claim.
I'll need to you project number of passengers on this one-trick pony as well. Because, there won't be enough passengers.
Our country is just too big geographically, unlike Europe's countries.

[swampymarsh]

You'll have to provide numbers and sources to back up your "misinformation" claim.
I'll need to you project number of passengers on this one-trick pony as well. Because, there won't be enough passengers.
Our country is just too big geographically, unlike Europe's countries.

Europes rails aren't limited to each country, they go interstate and Europe is bigger than the US.

Everytime you land at an airport you pay that airport a tax. The airport is built with tax money and municipal bonds. The FAA is paid for with federal tax.

Roads are paid for with federal tax and gas tax. Spending about 40B a year.

Take away those subsidies to current transit and give them to railroads. The roads will far apart, the airports will no longer be safe. Ridership on trains will sky rocket as they will be able to pay for faster rail, nicer trains and stations, have more routes, and be the best transportation available.

[sediment]

Interesting theory.
There is a road out in front of my house. Not a rail.

If it's going to be subsidized, then someone is gonna make that money. (Rich people, essentially).

Quick analysis. Paris to Berlin.

Google says:
1. 1051 km.
2. 10 hours of driving.
3. 157.77 euros cost.

eurorail says:
1. same distance.
2. 8 hours 15 minutes.
3. $280. Currency exchange is 0.80 euros per US dollar, so 244 euros.

One person might take a train, but with two or more people, that's a lot of money saved to drive, for just a couple hours.
Same analysis could be made for LA to SF.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Presumably, if all the HSR riders were on the road, the highways would be clogged.Also, cars aren't free. You need more than gas, you have to buy and insure the car, there's wear and tear, it could break down. All the different drivers on the road increases the risk that some will die or be injured on the road. Driver and passengers will be more tired upon arrival in Berlin.The bigger picture is lost when you only compare the gas price with ticket price.Also, cars have to be replaced with greater frequency than the trains and rails.

[sediment]

Most of those costs will happen whether I drivethe car or not. If you're assuming that someone can go without a car, then sure. If someone doen't need a car, then they shouldn't own one. Save a lot of money that way.
Now, LA-SF is still only a 1 hour flight, plus 1.5 hours sitting around and waiting in the airport. And inexpensive, too.

And, it still costs to much to construct! And 20 million passengers per year is way too high of an estimate. That's 55000 passengers per day!

[Bruce Bergman]

Mark my words, if they can get the California HSR Project back on the ballot, as it's currently shaping up to be built and run it's Dead.

The price keeps going straight up, the speed keeps going down and the time end-to-end going longer and longer - and now they want to build the first section of the line out in the middle of nowhere Central Valley from Chowchilla to Vacaville or something like that SOLELY to get the support of those two Congressmen for the system.

Might be lovely country, but that track will be a waste of billions and totally useless if the system never gets built out. Even if they put small intercity light rail cars on it and call it a commuter line it'll be an utter money pit.

You want to actually get Electorate support? They need to start at one end or the other (or both ends and work toward the middle) and make it useful for regional commuting as sections are ready to open.

And make it true grade separated High Speed double-tracked, with all the platforms off on sidings from the Mainline. So they can also run Locals to all the little towns along the way - but the End-to-end runs don't go next to the platforms and can blast on through at 160 plus without the air-blast bowling over the people standing there, while the Local trains are holding and loading at the stations and sidings. Then they can offer the little towns service and at the same time not compromise the high-speed runs with station stops every fifteen minutes.

--<< Bruce >>--

[jsmith11618]

Rail can work in the US, people just need to accept that the currently status quo is not going to work in the future.

Flying should be reserved for long haul and we should embrace alternatives to short haul travel such as rail.

I mean if Amtrak can attract 30 million people with its rail network, I have no doubt a proper high speed system can't attract even more.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Congress reaches tentative agreement on transportation bill - latimes.com

Los Angeles appears to be sucessful in getting federal loans to build Measure R projects now - finishing in 10 years instead of 30. The Feds get the money back with interest and LA gets moving 20 years early. Win-win!

[Sandy P]

HSR ain't gonna happen. Just too expensive. (As I have been stating in this and the prevvious thread.)
The only way it will be built is if the government simply takes away land and forces the costs down with an aggressive bidding process.
You know, like in Japan, China, and Europe.

Appreciate your views...........
Regards............

[jsmith11618]

State lawmakers approved funding for the project today, bill just needs to be signed by Gov. Brown.

Also includes 1.9B in funding for local rail projects.

State Lawmakers OK Funding For High-Speed Rail - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego

[sediment]

LA Times had an article today about the company that builds and operates the French HSR. Let me link it and post a few major points.
In short, it has lost interest in operating the line once it's built, because it says the line is being in the wrong place, which increases the costs.
They say, "Along The 5" (well, we say the "The" part).

High-speed rail officials rebuffed proposal from French railway - latimes.com

Nuggets of interest:

As state officials accelerated their effort to design a high-speed rail system in 2010, they were approached by the renowned French national railway with a suggestion: The project could use the help of an experienced bullet train operator.

And that's just the first paragraph!!

Dan Richard, chairman of the rail authority board, declined to answer specific questions about SNCF's proposal or critiques of the project. In a statement, however, he dismissed the railway's ideas.

"Our business plan is predicated on having private operations after the initial system is built," Richard said. "Turning the design of the system over to a private operator would have been a bad financial move for California taxpayers. SNCF's proposal was self-serving and not in the public interest."

"self-serving and not in the public interest" in this case = "profit," which I guess is considered a "bad thing."
So, the current proposal is "in the public interest"? Winding through farms and small towns whose citizens have, for the most part, no interest in going, on a regular basis, to SF or LA? Or is that the only way it gets approval to be built, by "creating jobs" in senators' and assemblymen's districts?
"Public interest," in this case = "public officials' interest."

One more, and I'll let you read the whole thing via the link:

McNamara said the I-5 route would have been the shortest, fastest and lowest-cost alignment, with a price tag of about $38 billion — sharply less than the rail authority's current route, which has been estimated at various times to cost $34 billion, $43 billion, $98 billion and now $68 billion.

According to SNCF, the I-5 route could use state-owned right of way or utility easements, reducing conflicts with property owners.

Public interest, shmublic shminterest.

[Bruce Bergman]

Public interest, shmublic shminterest.

Exactly. This whole boondoggle is in the Public Union and Labor Union intersts (Prevailing Wage jobs!) and the Political Intersts - all the jobs running the HSR Board. They don't give a rip about the Public Interest, they just want the Public Capital.

This started out as a good idea, a true grade-seperated and Electrified HSR line that would blast straight through from LA to SF in a couple hours, faster and cheaper than taking a plane (especially when you add in the Screening and Waiting times for a plane) or driving yourself...

But it has metastasized into a Slow-Speed, At-Grade with Grade Crossings, share-the-line-with-Freight, Local Stops, Goes-Nowhere-to-Noplace Frankenstein Monster that IMHO is beyond saving and must be destroyed. Before it kills our economy.

--<< Bruce >>--

[sediment]

I just wish this would be exposed to more public than just to those who read the front page of the LA Times. Yes, the French company wants to make a profit, but it knows it can't if the HSR costs two or three times as much as it has to, and that has to be made up in ticket prices, which then are too expensive relative to the alternatives' prices and conveniences.

As I've stated many times in this and the prior thread, I'm not against HSR in general. I'm against it at this cost level and lack of high speed and of its own rail.