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  1. #91

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    Removed
    Last edited by Another Voice; 06-30-2009 at 09:05 AM.

  2. #92

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    Quote Originally Posted by jedimaster7313 View Post
    At least we have Disney Sea to visit with it's intense themeing and beauty, while we only get new carnival rides with characters painted on them in the US lately- Sorry Mickeys fun wheel
    That's really unfair, Jedimaster.

    Yeah, they are retheming elements to Disney characters on some attractions that really don't fit the new direction but THAT is not all DCA is getting. The Little Mermaid attraction that just started getting built is a TDR quality attraction and last I saw, the budget was closing in on 120 mil. That's Pooh's Hunny Hunt kinda money there. Not to mention the Carsland area which according to Al will be close to 400 mil. That's two thirds what the park cost so I think it's fair to say the company is actually pumping some serious money into Anaheim's second park.

    I love DisneySEA more than any park except Disneyland, but since Iger has taken over a few years ago we've begun to get some stuff that Eisner, Pressler and the bunch would have never approved. That's great news and we don't have to be all negative about it. The way the Pier is shaping up in DCA it's really completely different that opening day.

    I really do like the decisions that Imagineers made in making TDS a complimentary park although I still would have liked to have seen Port Disney. I don't want a clone of it though. Now if Disney builds a third park I want something not done yet. Villain's theme park maybe?


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  3. #93

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    I think yedi's comment is more than fair. What's happening at DCA is too little too late in my opinion. WDC can do much better.

  4. #94

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    Fair TDLFAN?

    To mention one little refurb and not mention the large scale projects that have gotten underway, both of which will cost well over half a billion dollars? I'd say that's a little biased. Slanting something that way is like finding a solution before you've determined what the problem is.

    And I don't think it's too late. It's never too late and it's kind of nice that they've actually come around to spending money on projects. It's nice to see them spending budgets that are similar in scale to what Tokyo gets. I think for this they should be applauded as deservedly as I heaped scorn on them for DCA when it opened. While I don't believe it will ever be as good as TDS, in a few years it'll be a very good Disney park. And if it's successful and they start a second phase then it'll be even better when that one ends.

    If the WDC keeps up this kind of spending it'll be a good thing. I hope that Lasseter and Iger will pay some more attention to WDW in the next decade. But let's not judge what's been happening over the last couple years through the reflection of Eisner's reign. Iger deserves better than that.


    ImagineerWarrior

  5. #95

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    Quote Originally Posted by ImagineerWaryur View Post
    Fair TDLFAN?
    Yes, that is what I wrote. Time will only tell if DCA will redeem itself. But based on cut backs in the already announced improvements... I am not hopeful.

  6. #96

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    There are no cutbacks in DCA's budget. The plans and funding were approved before the economic downturn. The only thing that has happened with the money is that some of it has been redirected toward the two E-tickets instead of extra detailing for the Fun Wheel and Carousel. The only thing Disney has done that I don't like is let the rumor go fourth about the amount. Even though they didn't announce how much was being spent the rumor has been that it's 1.1 billion. It's actually closer to 900 million but they haven't lied about it, only not refuted the amount. There were proposals for a larger budget which was deemed too much for the board to approve and a much lower budgeted makeover. Iger chose the middleground. That's why things like a proposed makeover of Condor Flats area didn't make it this time.


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  7. #97

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    If the WDC keeps up this kind of spending it'll be a good thing.

    Hmmmmm.

    When I think of 'California', I see images of sunsets over the Pacific. I see fields of desert flowers stretching to the horizon. I see giant soaring Sequoias dwarfing the accomplishments of man. I see the glamour of an Art Deco Hollywood, the excitement of Gold Rush San Francisco, the calm of the central coast.

    Somehow a centuries old Danish fairy tale, an east coast amusement pier and a bunch of toy cars never really come up.

    Disney spent gobs of money on the original California Adventure. They’ve spent gobs of money after its opening on attractions and special events and other “fixes”. The place is still a disgrace.

    Just spending more money is nothing to cheer about. Until Disney understands the basic flaws in the park and the way Disney creates these days – the money for ‘Little Mermaid’, place making and ‘Carsland’ is just being flushed down the drain.

  8. #98

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    The site 'Progress City' has just posted their own article on the Port Disney project at Neverworlds Bicentennial Special - Port Disney | Progress City, U.S.A. . The article also brings together a lot of artwork that's been scattered around the Internet - including maps of the entire project and pictures of a site model that was created for a "presentation center" in the City of Long. It also includes more detail about the political back-and-forth that impacted the project. It's a good read.

    It's also nice that Port Disney is finally getting the attention it deserves.

  9. #99

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Voice View Post
    The site 'Progress City' has just posted their own article on the Port Disney project at Neverworlds Bicentennial Special - Port Disney | Progress City, U.S.A. . The article also brings together a lot of artwork that's been scattered around the Internet - including maps of the entire project and pictures of a site model that was created for a "presentation center" in the City of Long. It also includes more detail about the political back-and-forth that impacted the project. It's a good read.

    It's also nice that Port Disney is finally getting the attention it deserves.

    Thank you for the link - I'm very sorry that I hadn't seen your piece before I wrote mine. You do a much better job than I of giving that "on-the-ground" sense of being in the park. Not surprising, since all I have to work with are press reports, not memories

    You also have some wonderful details that I had yet to come across, so I might have to revise my article. I'm glad to see that my suspicion that those dome-like buildings on the harbor-front were in fact the research center.

    I've wondered recently why there seems to have been a sudden explosion in discussion about this park - more details are available about it now than ever before. It just goes to underline how disappointing the parks we've received since have been. I wonder if it'll ever be the same - as much as I'm glad they're pouring money into DCA I think your criticisms of the expansion are spot-on. No one looks at the big picture anymore.

    I will say, though, that I'm interested in the commentary on WESTCOT - I had always assumed Disney intended to build it instead of Port Disney but this discussion makes me think otherwise. I hadn't factored in Eisner's well-known disdain for EPCOT into the calculation. I must say, though, that I thought the plans for WESTCOT were spectacular and have long pined for it just as much as DisneySea. Then again, little was known about DisneySea until recently...

    Great article...

  10. #100

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    I wasn't trying to be unfair to Disneyland if it sounded that way, but it is somewhat true for the past few years. Yes I know with Lasseter & Iger at the reigns- bigger and better things are getting done now. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing the final result of California Adventure. I also love the Little Mermaid and am looking forward to a new dark ride. I'm all for the new Hollywood entrance as well- but with all you read these days- the cutbacks, the layoffs, the budgets, etc- I only hope most of what is proposed is actually built. There have been some cutbacks as well that I'm a little upset over, like the scaling down of Radiator Springs somewhat and the doing away with the Walt Disney story that was proposed for the Carthay Circle theater

    I actually really liked Calif Adventure the first time I saw it- but compared to the original plans for Disney Sea/Port Disney or Wescot- we sort of got the short end of the stick with DCA back then- but it is getting much better.

    As for my original point- which has well been said over and over on this site- The OLC was willing to invest more into it's parks and property- which is why they got the better attractions and they were willing to go out and build most of what was proposed for Tokyo Disney Sea- Did they get the fully blown out park that was described in the articles posted here by Another Voice- No, but they did get a well thought out, detailed and beautiful park with some killer rides, shows and attractions.

    I keep hoping that the Disney company keeps that in mind when planning for the future. I'm all for the major improvements, rather than quick fixes for the parks. I know cost is what keeps most of this from getting done & I'm always amazed at just how much it does cost to add new rides/attractions- but I feel that the investment is well worth it in the end. They really do need more attention to detail & to invest in keeping the US parks properly maintained and improved upon- that would ultimately benefit the company in the end.

    Don't get me wrong about Mickeys fun wheel- it's a thousand times more appealing than that old sun face-and the Victorian themeing is beautiful when compared to the old flat painted area- but still, those are quick fixes to a larger problem- Adding the Little Mermaid & Cars land are major improvements, which is needed there & I hope there is much more to come in the future.

    One thing I'm a little bummed about Tokyo is the Talk Turtle with Crush- they could have done a little better with that one- I hope they don't start cloning attractions in Japan next.

    Anyway, sorry to be sooo off topic- but I had to get my point across. Sorry I sounded a little harsh ImagineerWaryur.

    Another Voice- once again, great article- looking forward to any more insights- I'll have to check out the link later- Thanks again for all your efforts

  11. #101

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    It's been noted that one of the reasons DL's sister park was DCA rather than DisneySea is that the Company was unwilling to pay for a park like the one in Tokyo. But, why-oh-why couldn't they have leveraged all the design work presumably paid for by OLC and notched down the level of detail, knocking maybe $500 million of the parks pricetag and built it here. Does OLC have a no-copy-our-attractions clause?

    As seen in the 3 links below, "God is in the details" applies to theme parks as much as to writing or film-making or architecture.

    Level I: Out-of-this-world, extraordinary level of detail beyond even the Gold Standard originally set by Disney's American parks. Examples: Tokyo DisneySea, Maharajah Jungle Trek, DLP at opening:
    Flickr Photo Download: Tokyo Disneysea - American Waterfront Details

    Level II: An admirable level of detail - not of the standard of TDS, but quite acceptable. Examples: HKDL, MK:
    http://www.laughingplace.com/files/l...g/P12-0003.jpg

    Level III: Then there is WDSP, with its Six-Flags level of detail:
    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/4...fffd5589_b.jpg

    I think the attendance figures of these parks partly reflect that people either consciously or subconsciously appreciate the details.

    I agree with some here that DCA is fundamentally a lemon in several ways, and while I hope the makeover can turn it around, I have serious doubts. Had a $900 million version of DisneySea been built instead (with Level II detailing, rather than Level I and a couple of ports left for Phase II) TDA would be in such a better position right now.

  12. #102

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    Re: The Lost DisneySea

    MiklCraw4d - let me return the compliments on your excellent article as well. I really like how you captured all the political forces that affected the project – the primary cause why the plans were never close to being set. It was such a strange mix – so many forces wanted to see it happen, so many forces were opposed for reasons that had nothing to do with the project itself, but just for the symbolism (and a lot of personal power issues).

    I'm interested in the commentary on WESTCOT - I had always assumed Disney intended to build it instead of Port Disney but this discussion makes me think otherwise.
    The desire for a second gate at Disneyland went back at least until the 1970s. Obvisouly after opening EPCOT Center at Walt Disney World the idea came back to opening a similar attraction at Disneyland (and even perhaps just the ‘World Showcase’ section or just a ‘Future World’ section). No one really liked that idea. It just didn’t seem good enough for Disneyland. People wanted something amazing, something fresh.

    From the very beginning WESTCot was really treated like a “this will do until we come up with something better”. People worked on it because, well, if you weren’t on a project you’d be getting a pink slip soon. And Disney wanted some pretty pictures that might pry cause Anaheim to cough up more tax payer dollars. Disney had to come up with something to spend all those billions soon to be pouring in from Euro Disney, and WESTCot was a good enough place filler.

    Of course, Disney and ABC soon took care of any excess cash flow problems the company might have faced. I personally doubt that Michael Eisner had enough personal interest in either project to see them through. The parks had made him rich and famous, but his real prize was to run a network. Through that he would finally be taken seriously in Hollywood. In the end, he gleefully strip-mined the theme parks to prop up all his other scams at Disney.

    I've wondered recently why there seems to have been a sudden explosion in discussion about this park..
    When Tokyo DisneySea opened so soon after the parking lot carnival in Anaheim, there was an immense and childlike ‘sour grapes’ response throughout fandom (and it fully encouraged by Disney itself). We got the lies about how Disney always built small, how all those cookie tin sales let the Japanese build more, about how TDS was just a half day park and not “Disney”…the full works.

    Now I think people have finally gotten over it. California Adventure has not only not “grown on people”, it seems even more shallow and cheap than back in 2001. The vast expansion of the Internet allows more people to see more of Tokyo DisneySea for themselves. And as the standards in the U.S. continue to plummet, more and more people are coming back from Tokyo and shouting with joy over that real “Disney” is still possible.

    People – in the broad general public sense - want the good times back. People are tired of Hanna Montana, people are tired of pretending that ‘Midway Mania’ is the best Disney could offer, people are tired that everything is aimed at the “never been kissed” crowd.

    Port Disney is a reminder that things can be different.

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