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  1. #1

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    Big Band Beat Replacement

    Its my understanding that Disney and the OLC are working on a replacement for BBB. It will probarely debut during DisneySea's 10th Anniversary in 2011. BBB was only meant to have a limited run, but thanks to its suscess and the fact the OLC got cold feet with regards to the Snow Queen Musical, BBB has continued to entertain crowds. With it likely coming to an end soon what should replace the show currently playing in the Boardway Music Theatre. Disney has annouced its bringing the Toy Story Musical taken from the Cruise Ship to replace Aladdin at DCA. With a new Toy Story attraction in the process of starting construction would TS the musical be well suited for DisneySea too. Should the venue host another character show like BBB?

    What do you think?

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    Its my understanding that Disney and the OLC are working on a replacement for BBB. It will probarely debut during DisneySea's 10th Anniversary in 2011. BBB was only meant to have a limited run, but thanks to its suscess and the fact the OLC got cold feet with regards to the Snow Queen Musical, BBB has continued to entertain crowds. With it likely coming to an end soon what should replace the show currently playing in the Boardway Music Theatre. Disney has annouced its bringing the Toy Story Musical taken from the Cruise Ship to replace Aladdin at DCA. With a new Toy Story attraction in the process of starting construction would TS the musical be well suited for DisneySea too. Should the venue host another character show like BBB?

    What do you think?
    Anything but Toy story the musical , I loved big band beat... Please find something similar> I think Blast would go great at TDR>>>


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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by lighttragic View Post
    Anything but Toy story the musical , I loved big band beat... Please find something similar> I think Blast would go great at TDR>>>
    Please not Blast!

    I know there is a strong following of this show, but to me it seems to appeal to all the neverlandish band geeks from HS.

    OK, on a more serious note, what makes you think Blast would match with TDR? I don't see any connection, and those that do understand TDR and the majority of their Guests, know that they don't take too well to shows that don't feature the Disney characters.

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger55 View Post
    Please not Blast!

    I know there is a strong following of this show, but to me it seems to appeal to all the neverlandish band geeks from HS.

    OK, on a more serious note, what makes you think Blast would match with TDR? I don't see any connection, and those that do understand TDR and the majority of their Guests, know that they don't take too well to shows that don't feature the Disney characters.

    If blast incoprorated disney characters , I really think it would be a hit with tokyo disney. I am sure imagineering could think of something but its seems very concerning that what tokyo disney has in the pipeline is pixar based or repurposed attractions that already exist elsewhere. Mickeys Philharmagic, Cinderellas castle, Toy story mania, and Fantasmic... Some Imagination huh?


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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    I don't see any connection, and those that do understand TDR and the majority of their Guests, know that they don't take too well to shows that don't feature the Disney characters.
    How often has that theory been put to the test?

    As the Resort fails often to provide entertainment without Characters how do you know for certain the audience would not want to see a non character show like Blast. Mystic Rhythms doesn't feature Characters and its popularity speaks for itself.

    I am sure imagineering could think of something but its seems very concerning that what tokyo disney has in the pipeline is pixar based or repurposed attractions that already exist elsewhere. Mickeys Philharmagic, Cinderellas castle, Toy story mania, and Fantasmic... Some Imagination huh?
    To my knowledge the Cinderella Castle walk though is unique to Tokyo Disneyland. The rest are clones I'll give you that, but very popular clones that will only enhance the Guest experience. My real concern is that why does every themepark attraction recently or in the construction phase appear to have a Toy Story theme. DisneySea is getting Toy Story Mania, DCA is having the Musical and both poor Disneyland Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland are building new lands, enough already please.

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    How often has that theory been put to the test?

    As the Resort fails often to provide entertainment without Characters how do you know for certain the audience would not want to see a non character show like Blast. Mystic Rhythms doesn't feature Characters and its popularity speaks for itself.
    Just off the top of my head here...

    1) Sindbad 1.0 and 2.0
    2) Encore in comparison to BBB
    3) I don't agree that Mystic Rythems is that popular. I don't see the crowds flocking to in en mass and waiting crazy lengths to see it.
    4) BraviSeamo is way less popular than DisneySea Symphony or even Candelight Reflections
    5) Enchanted Tiki Room before they Stitchified it

    I'm not saying any of these offerings are bad or flawed, just not as popular as shows with the characters. Even the rainy day character parade and Meet and Smile generate more interest than many of the non-character based offerings I listed.

    Sure, there will always be "some" people who would enjoy Blast. My point is that it most likey won't have any mass-appeal like something with the Disney characters.

    As far as adding characters to Blast??? If they were to do it in a cleaver way, I could see that working... but then would it even qualify as being Blast???

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    My real concern is that why does every themepark attraction recently or in the construction phase appear to have a Toy Story theme. DisneySea is getting Toy Story Mania, DCA is having the Musical and both poor Disneyland Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland are building new lands, enough already please.
    We all love John Lasseter and the postitive influence he has brought to Disney since the merger. What he did for Princess and the Frog alone should be welcomed by all. So we also have to understand that his beloved Pixar characters are going to have more and more presence in the Disney Parks and across the corporation. Lasseter I'm sure loves the fact that he now has a place where his characters can live way beyond theatrical and DVD release.
    Last edited by Roger55; 12-04-2009 at 04:13 PM.

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    Its my understanding that Disney and the OLC are working on a replacement for BBB. It will probarely debut during DisneySea's 10th Anniversary in 2011. BBB was only meant to have a limited run, but thanks to its suscess and the fact the OLC got cold feet with regards to the Snow Queen Musical, BBB has continued to entertain crowds. With it likely coming to an end soon what should replace the show currently playing in the Boardway Music Theatre. Disney has annouced its bringing the Toy Story Musical taken from the Cruise Ship to replace Aladdin at DCA. With a new Toy Story attraction in the process of starting construction would TS the musical be well suited for DisneySea too. Should the venue host another character show like BBB?

    What do you think?
    I am praying that OLC isn't stupid and will not be dumb by bring Toy Story the Musical to TDS. That would be AWFUL.

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Just off the top of my head here...

    1) Sindbad 1.0 and 2.0
    2) Encore in comparison to BBB
    3) I don't agree that Mystic Rythems is that popular. I don't see the crowds flocking to in en mass and waiting crazy lengths to see it.
    4) BraviSeamo is way less popular than DisneySea Symphony or even Candelight Reflections
    5) Enchanted Tiki Room before they Stitchified it

    I'm not saying any of these offerings are bad or flawed, just not as popular as shows with the characters. Even the rainy day character parade and Meet and Smile generate more interest than many of the non-character based offerings I listed.
    1) In regards to Sinbad no one can work out why it fails to attract an audience, unlike other non character attractions inside the park, and TDS has plenty that are character free but post some long stand by lines.

    3) What you mean is that you don't see a few fanatics lining up hours before a performance, Mystic Rythems still packs in the crowds and it certainly appears just as popular as Over the Waves or BBB, both Character shows. In fact I've actually attended many BBB and Over the Wave shows where the venue has sat half empty.

    4) I'll take your word on that because I've never seen DisneySea Symphony or Candelight Reflections in person. But I see no evidence to support the theory that BraviSEAmo is less popular because it features no characters, as Mickey's featured in the opening scene. I blame the reason on BraviSEAmo's lack of a fanbase more on the fact its a very repetitive show, and its not only the Japanese that don't hold much love for the show but most westerners who see it too. Do you think if DisneySea put on something like Illuminations it too would fail to attract an audience?

    5) Apart from a few months during the 25th Anniversary where park attendance was already up I have actually seen no difference in the number of crowds to either version, has anyone else?

    I'm not saying the Guest don't enjoy all the character stuff, but I also don't believe its what the majority of Guest want to see. I believe if the Resort was to put on a good enough quality show without the use of Characters, most people would still still visit the park to see it.

    We all love John Lasseter and the postitive influence he has brought to Disney since the merger. What he did for Princess and the Frog alone should be welcomed by all. So we also have to understand that his beloved Pixar characters are going to have more and more presence in the Disney Parks and across the corporation. Lasseter I'm sure loves the fact that he now has a place where his characters can live way beyond theatrical and DVD release.
    The fact many Pixar attractions and shows are being added to the park makes no difference to me, its the ever growing Toy Story presence that I dislike. I know many people think John Lasseter is a god and I look up to him as a hero myself, although he's much more gifted as an executive producer than he is as a Director. Pixar has created much better movies than Toy Story 1 & 2 or Cars but these Movies get overlooked because Ratatouille doesn't sell much in the way of consumer products.

    I am praying that OLC isn't stupid and will not be dumb by bring Toy Story the Musical to TDS. That would be AWFUL.
    Why have you seen the Musical, and would it really be such a dumb move on OLC's part. Toy Story despite its ever growing presence is very popular in Japan and I don't see why anyone could consider it a bad move if its what the fanbase would want to see !

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    To my knowledge the Cinderella Castle walk though is unique to Tokyo Disneyland.
    That's my understanding, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger55 View Post
    Just off the top of my head here...

    1) Sindbad 1.0 and 2.0
    2) Encore in comparison to BBB
    3) I don't agree that Mystic Rythems is that popular. I don't see the crowds flocking to in en mass and waiting crazy lengths to see it.
    4) BraviSeamo is way less popular than DisneySea Symphony or even Candelight Reflections
    5) Enchanted Tiki Room before they Stitchified it

    I'm not saying any of these offerings are bad or flawed, just not as popular as shows with the characters. Even the rainy day character parade and Meet and Smile generate more interest than many of the non-character based offerings I listed.

    Sure, there will always be "some" people who would enjoy Blast. My point is that it most likey won't have any mass-appeal like something with the Disney characters.
    I completely agree. Since Joe's insightful post in the Duffy Show thread, I've been thinking even more about why the Bear has succeeded so incredibly while the Tiger remains so marginal. Shiriki Utundu is actually very popular (though nothing like Duffy), I think mostly due to his disappearing act and unique sinister personality, but you can't really love Shiriki Utundu. And, come to think of it just now, Mickey, Minnie, and Daisy - as well as other characters - actually appear in a LOT of ToT merchandise and on the ride photo for the attraction. In fact, they are predominant in some of the merchandise.

    This is not true for Storybook Voyage. I think I may have stumbled onto something, actually... What Sindbad needs is crossover merchandising with the Disney characters in their Arabian Coast costumes. I genuinely think this would have an impact. Weren't there some postcards or something that showed Mickey and Chandu together on snacks this past summer? The problem with that, though, is that it went across multiple rides and snacks, too. We need Mickey and Sindbad facing off against the thieves, Pluto and Chandu protecting the Rukh, Daisy bellydancing in the city, Donald playing (or being picked on) with the monkeys, Scrooge and the nephews playing with gold in the Genie's treasure room! If there was a series of merchandise like this, especially combined with a Sindbad face character and Chandu mascot* posing with Mickey and Minnie outside, I think the popularity Storybook Voyage would increase significantly.

    *Can't take credit for the face character and mascot idea; Ichigo mentioned it to me one day in the park, and I think she's right that it would make a difference.

    Chandu has cuddly lovability, but is totally disconnected from the Fab 5, and I do think he suffers for it. Storybook Voyage is, for me, the most "Disney" ride in TDS - it's like being in a movie. Only it's not a movie, and there's no Mickey, and it shows in the queue that this matters. While I do think it's OLC's incredible costume designers and event planners that made Duffy a superstar, I think it would've still been impossible without the Mickey marks. I also think, upon recent reflection, that the generic "Disney Bear" would still have sold (never enough to have his own show, but enough to keep around) if the Mickey marks were all he had going for him. As Joe so wisely said, "But let us not forget the power that Mickey has in the hearts of Japanese." This is too true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger55 View Post
    We all love John Lasseter and the postitive influence he has brought to Disney since the merger. What he did for Princess and the Frog alone should be welcomed by all. So we also have to understand that his beloved Pixar characters are going to have more and more presence in the Disney Parks and across the corporation. Lasseter I'm sure loves the fact that he now has a place where his characters can live way beyond theatrical and DVD release.
    What is that, exactly? Sorry, but I do really wanna know. I'm still nervous about that one... And just as a by the way, old friends who are totally dismayed by my newfound Disney love, still totally agree that Pixar knows how to tell a story! I'm so happy to see Pixar in the parks, but I also think that Pixar has a lot more going for it than just Buzz and Woody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    1) In regards to Sinbad no one can work out why it fails to attract an audience, unlike other non character attractions inside the park, and TDS has plenty that are character free but post some long stand by lines.
    Could you list some of these, to give us an idea of what you're talking about? In my mind, we should really not be comparing ride attractions to entertainment attractions. I think this may be a semantics problem. Rides without the Mice & Ducks can do well because it's a totally different experience. For the shows, though, I think it's a nearly inarguable point to suggest that what fans want-nigh-demand of performances is to see these beloved characters singing and dancing in fresh costumes. I'd happily stand corrected, but I honestly don't even think it's debatable. Japan is a character-oriented society. Even the police stations have character mascots and construction warnings are illustrated by Osamu Tezuka, the creator of Astro Boy (Mighty Atom).

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    3) What you mean is that you don't see a few fanatics lining up hours before a performance, Mystic Rythems still packs in the crowds and it certainly appears just as popular as Over the Waves or BBB, both Character shows. In fact I've actually attended many BBB and Over the Wave shows where the venue has sat half empty.
    I can't say for sure what Roger meant, but to describe BBB's following as "a few fanatics" would be a GROSS understatement and extremely misleading for people who haven't actually seen the crowds it draws or waited in line for it (though after two stories of out-of-towner/other-side-of-the-worlders who lost out on BOTH lotteries, I'm having doubts about this as a solution). There is absolutely NO room for hype/hysteria comparison with Mystic Rhythms by ANY stretch of the imagination, although I personally Mystic Rhythms. Mickey drumming, and other characters singing and dancing, is a VERY important and effective draw. As for OTW, I think that show's just too long and out in the weather (and where you can kinda enjoy it without really waiting - although I've seen looong lines). I'm no seasoned TDS vet, but I honestly feel OTW is ready for retirement. That doesn't meant people don't want characters. I'm confident fans would prefer a character show to replace it; I just think people are ready for a new show. It's not interactive, narrative shows require more from an audience, and you don't feel as posh sitting on hard metal benches as you do sinking into the plush seats of the gorgeous Broadway Theater. It is an utterly different experience that is understandably less popular than BBB, and I think if it was not a character show, it would be looong gone already. I it, too, by the way, precisely because it is narrative and I love the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    4) I'll take your word on that because I've never seen DisneySea Symphony or Candelight Reflections in person. But I see no evidence to support the theory that BraviSEAmo is less popular because it features no characters, as Mickey's featured in the opening scene. I blame the reason on BraviSEAmo's lack of a fanbase more on the fact its a very repetitive show, and its not only the Japanese that don't hold much love for the show but most westerners who see it too. Do you think if DisneySea put on something like Illuminations it too would fail to attract an audience?

    5) Apart from a few months during the 25th Anniversary where park attendance was already up I have actually seen no difference in the number of crowds to either version, has anyone else?

    I'm not saying the Guest don't enjoy all the character stuff, but I also don't believe its what the majority of Guest want to see. I believe if the Resort was to put on a good enough quality show without the use of Characters, most people would still still visit the park to see it.
    I don't think we can count Mickey's tiny cameo in BraviSEAmo! as making it a "character show." In fact, I think this gets right to the heart of what Roger's talking about, and I think he's right. Mickey is TOTALLY unnecessary to BraviSEAmo!, but someone thought he needed to be there. And I think it's true. It "validates/certifies" the show to have Mickey introduce it. BraviSEAmo! is another personal favorite of mine, but I'm not surprised it's being retired. In fact, I'm hoping I'm still here for Fantasmic! because I can already imagine the crowd reaction.

    The Tiki Room is just boring either way, in my opinion. And for its length, "boring" shouldn't even be an option. I just cannot understand what anyone sees in it. I wish I could; I feel like I'm missing something.

    I do think it's true that Guests will accept something very high quality and beautifully fantastical, even without characters...on the Harbor. But I do not think people would be likely to line up for a non-character show at smaller venues in the parks (or even really like that those venues were being used for non-character shows), even if it was brilliant. I'd need to see photo evidence that this ever happens for a show like Mystic Rhythms more than 15~20 minutes before showtime, because I have never witnessed it. Maybe when it was brand new, but the Ducks and especially the Mice (and especially the Mouse) are truly what give live entertainment its staying power at TDR. Captain EO, I believe upon further reflection, falls into this latter category. It will be very popular for a time, Michael Jackson himself being a "character" of sorts (and in that era, actually kind of similar to the Mouse), but with no Mickey connection, its popularity will dwindle once everyone sees it a few times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    The fact many Pixar attractions and shows are being added to the park makes no difference to me, its the ever growing Toy Story presence that I dislike. I know many people think John Lasseter is a god and I look up to him as a hero myself, although he's much more gifted as an executive producer than he is as a Director. Pixar has created much better movies than Toy Story 1 & 2 or Cars but these Movies get overlooked because Ratatouille doesn't sell much in the way of consumer products.
    Ratatouille is my FAVE-o-rite of all the Pixar films! It's such a great look at the process of becoming a successful commercial artist, whether culinary or musical or fashion or whatever. I REMY!!! I actually secretly wish that Ristorante di Canaletto was converted into a Ratatouille-themed restaurant. I know it's Italy, not France, but I would love it just the same. Anyone know if Remy saw any love during Disney A La Carte? Seems like he should've, but I don't remember seeing anything. UP is wonderful, too! These two FAR more original and compelling for me than any of Pixar's other films, even the oft-hyped WALL-E, which I liked least of all the Pixar films so far although I totally support its message. In theory, at least...in reality, a year of being a Disney fan has vastly increased the amount of "future garbage" I own and my environmental footprint. NOTE: haven't seen Cars; just can't imagine liking it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    Toy Story despite its ever growing presence is very popular in Japan and I don't see why anyone could consider it a bad move if its what the fanbase would want to see !
    I thought you were, like me, not digging all the too much Toy Story? I'm confused by this last comment...

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    PLEASE DON"T MAKE IT A CHARACTER BASED ATTRACTION! Or even worse (Dare I say it) Toy Story The Musical... Shudders...

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    How often has that theory been put to the test?

    As the Resort fails often to provide entertainment without Characters how do you know for certain the audience would not want to see a non character show like Blast. Mystic Rhythms doesn't feature Characters and its popularity speaks for itself.



    To my knowledge the Cinderella Castle walk though is unique to Tokyo Disneyland. The rest are clones I'll give you that, but very popular clones that will only enhance the Guest experience. My real concern is that why does every themepark attraction recently or in the construction phase appear to have a Toy Story theme. DisneySea is getting Toy Story Mania, DCA is having the Musical and both poor Disneyland Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland are building new lands, enough already please.
    Once upon a time disney parks had a blend of clones and unique attractions that made that theme park unique. Tokyo Disney resort is a prime example of unique attractions or take on other attractions Poohs Hunny Hunt, Monsters inc. and just about all of disney sea is unique with the exception of tower of terror, raging spirits, and indiana jones ... yet each one of those attractions still have unique qualities different from the orginals... I just dont want the tokyo disney resort to lose that uniqueness. To be honest since the leadership change at tokyo disney resort a couple years back... alot of the projects that have been greenlit have been clones.. and yes the cinderalla castle walkthrough is unique to tokyo disney but I imagine it would be very close to the walk through at DL in anaheim. Bottom line Disney parks need to keep some level of uniqueness especially TDR


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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by lighttragic View Post
    .. and yes the cinderalla castle walkthrough is unique to tokyo disney but I imagine it would be very close to the walk through at DL in anaheim.
    I doubt this is even slightly close to being accurate statment.

    For those that have been in the DL "SLEEPING BEAUTY' walk-through, know that it is a series of small diorama like displays which have been plussed-up with some cool high-tech effects. You walk through narrow cramped spaces that reflect the dimunitive size of the DL castle.

    For those who have been to "CINDERELLA" castle at TDL and remember the Mystery Tour, they know that the interior space available is nothing like DL's castle.

    Why on earth would they choose to emulate the tiny "show" wedged into DL's castle when the space, layout AND theme of TDL's castle are so different from DL?

    Besides, there has already been concept art released for the Cinderella Castle walk-through and it shows ZERO similarity to DL's walk-through.

    If anything, I would think the experience could be similar to DLP's walk-through, at least when it comes to scale.

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    Smile Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger55 View Post
    I If anything, I would think the experience could be similar to DLP's walk-through, at least when it comes to scale.
    Well I guess we will have to wait and see what happens when it opens. perhpas it will use some of the same technology.


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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Since Joe's insightful post in the Duffy Show thread, I've been thinking even more about why the Bear has succeeded so incredibly while the Tiger remains so marginal.
    While Joe brought up some very interesting theory's in his Duffy thread, I'm not convinced Chandu would be a suscess if you tie him in with Mickey. A big part of the Duffy suscess is down to Guest at the park having an opportunity to meet and interact with the Bear. I feel a walk around Chandu character would push interest in the attraction and his merchandise. Guest don't feel any connection to him, because he doesn't come across like a real character in the same sense that Mickey and Duffy do.

    Could you list some of these, to give us an idea of what you're talking about? In my mind, we should really not be comparing ride attractions to entertainment attractions. I think this may be a semantics problem. Rides without the Mice & Ducks can do well because it's a totally different experience. For the shows, though, I think it's a nearly inarguable point to suggest that what fans want-nigh-demand of performances is to see these beloved characters singing and dancing in fresh costumes.
    In one of Roger's post he brought up ride attractions and both parks have a number of these that don't have any Character presence but are incredibly popular. The point in regards to entertainment featuring no Characters is that its never done at either park, so how can anyone say Guest wouldn't want to see it. Using Character shows is what I refer to as safe, because these do go down well with the fanbase, but it does not mean that Guest wouldn't want to see a non character show either. Problem is the park prefers to go with the safe option all the time so this point will likely never be proven right or wrong, unless a non character show is planned for the 10th Anniversary.

    I thought you were, like me, not digging all the too much Toy Story? I'm confused by this last comment...
    While I'm not a big Toy Story fan, I can't ignore the fact Toy Story the Musical would probarely be a hit with Resort Guest. So I can't see why giving the majority of Guest what they want to see would be a dumb move.

    Once upon a time disney parks had a blend of clones and unique attractions that made that theme park unique. Tokyo Disney resort is a prime example of unique attractions or take on other attractions Poohs Hunny Hunt, Monsters inc. and just about all of disney sea is unique with the exception of tower of terror, raging spirits, and indiana jones ... yet each one of those attractions still have unique qualities different from the orginals... I just dont want the tokyo disney resort to lose that uniqueness. To be honest since the leadership change at tokyo disney resort a couple years back... alot of the projects that have been greenlit have been clones.. and yes the cinderalla castle walkthrough is unique to tokyo disney but I imagine it would be very close to the walk through at DL in anaheim. Bottom line Disney parks need to keep some level of uniqueness especially TDR
    In defense to the Management at OLC, these people are trying to offer Guest in Japan the same experience that can be enjoyed in the States. Not everyone in Japan can aford to fly of to Disneyland to watch Turtle Talk with Crush or ride and play Toy Story Mania. While TDR offers some very unique attractions, its also important to remember it has to cater first to its local fanbase and offer attractions that fanbase want to see. Also I agree with Roger the Cinderella walk tho will be nothing like the Sleeping Beauty Castle walk tho. I imagine the Cinderella walk tho tour will be more similar to some of these interactive envioments WDW are bringing to its own Fantasyland.

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    Re: Big Band Beat Replacement

    Yes, I am willing to bet that some of the "Cinderella" interactive items will be shared between WDW's Fantasyland makeover, and TDL's castle walkthrough. It just makes sense. Now, I don't know who will ask who for shared cost or not, but I'm sure some of it will overlap.

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