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  1. #16

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustysage View Post
    Hong Kong's new Mystic Manor will use the technology as may Disney Studios Paris upcoming Ratatouille ride (if they don't cheap out as rumored).
    About that... Um... Sir...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterpanfan1953 View Post
    Actually I have heard the opposite rumors... that Ratatouille is definitely getting the PHH ride system (and based on what has been rumored I'm not sure they could use a normal omnimover system without completely re-designing it) but they are "cheaping out" with Mystic Manor and going with a more traditional ride system.

    Of course these are all rumors so who knows. Hopefully they will both get the PHH system and it spreads to the US parks.
    I've also heard some things on that too.
    -Hale (wumbology)

    a.k.a. h2mc, omnimover.mousetalgia, omnimover, wumbology, hogbackmtn, hhmcsharry, Hale M., h2m, h2mc

    (I've never visited Disneyland Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, nor Hong Kong Disneyland Resort, so don't be fooled when I pretend to know what I'm talking about. [But I'm pretty good with the information, if I do say so myself. And you can hit me all you want with Walt Disney World.])



  2. #17

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Tokyo has it because Disney didn't have to pay for it, Oriental Land Company bought it. All the other parks, Disney would have to pay for it themselves, and the current Disney Company really isn't interested in spending that kind of money for an attraction.
    I'm kind of confused by that comment, with knowing how much $$$ the Walt Disney Company is currently investing back into its themeparks. In fact next year Star Tours II will be opening which is a project that the OLC have yet to commit too.

    People use money as a reason and in a way they may be right. But than I think about how much the Tower of Terror or Expedition Everest cost and I'm not too convinced. I think the problem is that in the last 10 years Disney has opened some crap parks. Parks that fail to draw attendance like the tried and tested Disneyland/Magic Kingdom concept. Since the Pooh attraction is a Disneyland concept, I believe the reason we've never seen Pooh copied is that Disney have been pouring money back into parks that were under funded in the first place and ignoring the Disneyland parks that continue to pull in the crowds. The other problem now of course is that we have John Lasseter and Bob Iger running the parks and both are huge supporters of the Pixar brand. So some of the traditional Characters are no longer getting a look in. Although the Little Mermaid at DCA and WDW's Fantasyland Expansion may address the balance.

    Anyway reason I'm visiting California next year and not Tokyo is because I know Disney has some rather interesting attractions opening. The only thing up to now that has me some what interested in Tokyo DisneySea's weak 10th Anniversary offerings is Fantasmic.

  3. #18

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malin View Post
    I'm kind of confused by that comment, with knowing how much $$$ the Walt Disney Company is currently investing back into its themeparks. In fact next year Star Tours II will be opening which is a project that the OLC have yet to commit too.

    People use money as a reason and in a way they may be right. But than I think about how much the Tower of Terror or Expedition Everest cost and I'm not too convinced.
    Star Tours II doesn't involve building anything new- It's just a new set and a new movie. The Fantasyland Expansion is just going to sell a lot of souvenirs and hopefully bring a few more people into the Magic Kingdom. Expedition Everest and the DCA Expansion are the only recent examples of good money going into the parks and they're both because both those parks just did not have enough when they opened. Tell me: when was the last time the Magic Kingdom got a new E-Ticket attraction? I believe it's coming up on twenty years.
    -Hale (wumbology)

    a.k.a. h2mc, omnimover.mousetalgia, omnimover, wumbology, hogbackmtn, hhmcsharry, Hale M., h2m, h2mc

    (I've never visited Disneyland Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, nor Hong Kong Disneyland Resort, so don't be fooled when I pretend to know what I'm talking about. [But I'm pretty good with the information, if I do say so myself. And you can hit me all you want with Walt Disney World.])



  4. #19

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Star Tours II doesn't involve building anything new- It's just a new set and a new movie.
    The existing structure remains but much of it will be replaced. If it was as simple as you suggest it being with a new movie and set. The attraction wouldn't need to be closed as long as it currently is being. Also Al Lutz this week discussed the difficulties Imagineering is having at Disneyland removing the simulators. There is a lot more happening in this Star Tours upgrade then I feel your giving credit too.

    The Fantasyland Expansion is just going to sell a lot of souvenirs and hopefully bring a few more people into the Magic Kingdom.
    I can't comment too much on the Fantasyland plans because a lot of it has been shelved. But it does seem that Disney will now be spending more money on the project than originally thought. What I do know is that the Mermaid attraction does appear to be on a grand scale that would match some of the recent Tokyo Disney attractions that we've seen.

    Expedition Everest and the DCA Expansion are the only recent examples of good money going into the parks and they're both because both those parks just did not have enough when they opened.
    I think Toy Story Mania was a good investment. I think the Tower of Terror's in both DCA and WDS were good investments. I feel the upcoming expansion for Hong Kong is a good investment. Yeah I agree non of this would be needed if the parks were not built on the cheap in the first place. And these parks have seriously taken away money that should of been spent on the Magic Kingdom or Disneyland parks. But that all goes back to my argument on why Disney never got round to building Pooh else where. All the money on expansion has gone into the newer parks and left the older parks with nothing. But still despite the lack of investment some of the parks have had over the last 10-20 years. I look at whats happening now and see Disney spending millions on new attractions in California, Orlando and Hong Kong. And I see no sign of a Disney company not being interested in spending money on its parks. A few years a go I would have agreed. But now after viewing over a lot of concept art and models for upcoming attractions at all its parks. I just can't see your point that the Disney company is currently not interested in spending money on its parks. Especially since I know each park has several current and rumoured projects coming up.

  5. #20

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeInJpn View Post
    I hope SuperDry comes by to tell us his interesting anecdote concerning PHH.
    Sorry for the delay in responding. I accidentally had the ringer on my White Courtesy Phone turned off.

    Back in 2003, as I was in the midst of my transformation from regular Disney fan into a full-fledged fanboy, I went to one of the special Haunted Mansion Holiday merchandise events at Disneyland. I had the top package, and it included a limousine ride from the GCH to New Orleans Square on stage (obviously, after the park was closed). Each limo had one Imagineer in it along with the guests to provide chit-chat, and then there was a reception. At that point in time, I didn't know any of the individual Imagineers by name (not that I know any of them now personally, but I at least recognize names and know who some of them are).

    In any event, a very nice gentleman in my limo introduced himself as an Imagineer, and told us his name was Tony Baxter. He asked if he had any questions. Pooh at DL had recently opened, and was widely panned and the basic conclusion was that "it sucked big-time." I wanted to ask him how things like this happened, but I decided to be diplomatic. So, I formulated my question:

    "Can you comment on the differences between Pooh in Tokyo vs Anaheim?" The look on his face was priceless. He looked like he had just seen a ghost. He said "The difference? About a hundred million dollars!" I think I had caught him off guard with the question and he soon remembered that he was speaking with guests, regained his composure, and then went back to giving only company-approved talking points. I tried to get more out of him about how things were being done on the cheap in Anaheim (remember this was the tail end of the Pressler/Harriss era) without actually being rude and asking directly, but he kept his game face on after his initial gaffe and wouldn't respond directly to what I was really asking.

    It was such an interesting interaction, both in how telling it is about why things turn out the way they do, and also when I later found out that he's one of the most senior Imagineers there is.

  6. #21

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fukai View Post
    It's not "track-less" technology: it's line-wire. The track is a wire buried in the floor directly beneath the vehicles. They can only move on a pre-programmed pattern directly above the wires embedded in the floor. Just because you can't see the track doesn't mean it's not there.
    Not quite. The vehicles are free roaming, and their routes could be changed in software alone if need be. I know what you're talking about regarding line-wire, but that's not what's used in HH.

    I'm not sure that the Wiki is correct regarding using radio-based LPS in HH. I know that Disney developed two different systems for location for this same basic ride system. Both rely on on-board inertial guidance for micro tracking, with regular updates from an external system to correct for drift. They had two different external systems developed: one was the radio-based LPS technology, and the other was an embedded "puck" system where RFID tags were embedded in a grid in the floor. My understanding is that the puck system is used for HH, and the radio system is used for Aquatopia, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure that the radio system is used for Aquatopia - perhaps they developed both and decided that the radio system was superior and used it for both, or perhaps they tried one of each to see how they worked in production.

    In any event, the puck system that was developed (that may or may not be used in HH) was based on embedded elements in the pavement, but they are not "tracks" in the sense of the line-wire system. Instead, the vehicles know where they are based on inertial guidance. That is, they start from a known position, and by constantly measuring acceleration in the X and Y directions, an on-board computer can constantly update where it is on the grid. This is highly accurate in the short term, but over longer periods of time, it tends to drift due to measurement error. That's where the embedded pucks come in. Every time the vehicle passes over a puck, it knows *exactly* where it is at that moment in time, and resets its internal location based on that. The point is, the pucks are not laid out along any particular path, but simply in a grid pattern. It's entirely up to the software to decide what the paths should be, and this could be changed without changing the layout of the pucks in the floor.

  7. #22

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Another thing that makes this type of ride system expensive as compared to others is power. Since the vehicles are completely stand-alone with no track, they not only have to have self-contained motors to drive around, but self-contained power to run the motors.

    Navigation issues aside, compare this to something like a roller coaster: all motion force is provided externally, with no on-board power (except perhaps for lights and sound). Then consider the classic dark ride, including the other Pooh's: on-board motors cause the vehicles to move, but they draw power from the "bus" (track) on the floor, which serves the triple purpose of providing: navigation, control, and power.

    With HH, all three functions are self-contained on board, with some basic control functions being controlled by radio from off-board (such as system health and most importantly E Stop). Many of these are just software and electronics issues, but there is one big issue that has no easy solution: power.

    The honeypots have to provide their own power for the entire ride cycle. Providing the acceleration and precision movements that they do for the entire ride cycle takes quite a bit of power as compared to what can be stored on board in the space available (consider that the honeypots aren't all that large, carry 4 passengers, and the "under the hood" space also has to contain the motors, wheels, and electronics). That doesn't leave much room for batteries, which are the only viable source of power.

    Since the vehicles must run more or less continuously (well, at least for 14+ hours a day without a break), there's no way that any sort of overnight charging system would work. The batteries would have to be the size of a tractor trailer. Instead, the batteries are rapid-charged while in the station, adding just enough charge to make it through the next ride cycle. You can see the large copper charging contacts in the floor (surrounded by green plastic) at both the unload and load stations. Basically, whenever the honeypots are at rest in either the unload or load stations, they rapidly charge their batteries. Considering that the ride is 4+ minutes long, and the vehicles are stationery in the stations for a much shorter period, and that they can run continuously with these charge/discharge cycles, it's really quite amazing.

    I would guess that the whole power system was not cheap to develop, and not cheap to deploy and maintain. The batteries probably have to be replaced on a regular basis, making the percentage of parts and cost of a ride vehicle that must be regularly replaced higher than a typical ride system. Also, unlike the development of the navigation system and related costs, the power system costs would be mostly duplicated with each new ride deployed, both in terms of up-front and ongoing costs. I suspect that this is one reason we've not seen this ride system used elsewhere up to now. One can only hope that they'll decide the cost is worth the experience for Mystic Manor and Ratatouille.

  8. #23

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Super Dry, nice to see you in this neck of the woods. My information about the line-wire system comes directly from an imagineer I spoke with at length while at the D23 Expo. He was working on Mystic Manor at the time, so I figured he knew what he was talking about. But your description sounds far more technically detailed, so I'm going to assume you're right.

  9. #24

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Was that the bid deal Pooh-related story we were supposed to get from Superfry? Big yawn.
    I thought it would be a tale bordering on comical and along the lines of the utterly ridiculous.. like.. taking a taxi from Maihama to the Ambassador hotel or so. Boring!

  10. #25

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Thanks, SuperDry!

    I didn't think about the power. That definitely is one major factor. But even in that front, the quicker re-charge batteries are coming down in price (thanks to the hybrid and electric car market).

    btw. those would've cost major $$$ back in 2000....

  11. #26

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDry View Post
    The honeypots have to provide their own power for the entire ride cycle. Providing the acceleration and precision movements that they do for the entire ride cycle takes quite a bit of power as compared to what can be stored on board in the space available (consider that the honeypots aren't all that large, carry 4 passengers, and the "under the hood" space also has to contain the motors, wheels, and electronics). That doesn't leave much room for batteries, which are the only viable source of power.

    Since the vehicles must run more or less continuously (well, at least for 14+ hours a day without a break), there's no way that any sort of overnight charging system would work. The batteries would have to be the size of a tractor trailer. Instead, the batteries are rapid-charged while in the station, adding just enough charge to make it through the next ride cycle. You can see the large copper charging contacts in the floor (surrounded by green plastic) at both the unload and load stations. Basically, whenever the honeypots are at rest in either the unload or load stations, they rapidly charge their batteries. Considering that the ride is 4+ minutes long, and the vehicles are stationery in the stations for a much shorter period, and that they can run continuously with these charge/discharge cycles, it's really quite amazing.
    Ah, so maybe with the average "western" guest being a lot heavier than the average japanese guest, the weight difference would cause a lot of issues. I'm not trying to be facetious here, but it could be a realistic possibility. We've already seen what happened to DL's IASW (If the rumors were true).

    As for why there's no other ride systems in the U.S. parks with it....think about what Disney would be researching...build a $40 million attraction to get an increase of 5% of guests, or build a $130 million attraction to get an increase of maybe 6-7% of guests....is it worth it to them. That's how the pencil pushers/bean counters think.

  12. #27

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    There's a pretty stark contrast in the the wait times for the Pooh ride at Disneyland versus Pooh's Hunny Hunt at Tokyo Disneyland. 5 minutes versus ... 120 minutes to 180 minutes. Even a pencil-pushing imbecile bean counter can understand that.

    The only way we'll see this technology in the states is if the Ratatouille ride or Mystic Manor make it over here.

  13. #28

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fukai View Post
    The only way we'll see this technology in the states is if the Ratatouille ride or Mystic Manor make it over here.
    Well, scratch out Mystic Manor since it's pretty much the Haunted Mansions CA and FL have.

  14. #29

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    I think the initial constuction costs easily explain why they don't copy this ride. I don't think maintenance costs (a different funding source entirely) would be as much for PHH as for American Idol, which employs a full television crew, four talents on stage, and pre-production staff. That is one huge operation.

  15. #30

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    Re: Why no 'Copies' of Pooh's Hunny Hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fukai View Post
    There's a pretty stark contrast in the the wait times for the Pooh ride at Disneyland versus Pooh's Hunny Hunt at Tokyo Disneyland. 5 minutes versus ... 120 minutes to 180 minutes. Even a pencil-pushing imbecile bean counter can understand that.
    Well.. let's be fair here.. The only reason why PHH's wait times exceed over 2 hours at times is because of Fastpass. If FP was not available, the wait times would be on average 45 mins to one hour max.
    Quote Originally Posted by captainEo,ATIS
    scratch out Mystic Manor since it's pretty much the Haunted Mansions CA and FL have.
    Not quite. Mystic Manor is said to be a different take on the old Haunted mansion.. and the ride system is supposed to be the same as Hunny Hunt... so saying "it's pretty much the same FL and CA have" is not accurate.

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