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  1. #31

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post
    But that's like saying The Wizard of Oz is about a girl who "kills the first person she meets and then teams up with three strangers to kill again"--there may be some superficial factual truth, but in reality it is a misrepresentation, much like taking things out of context. Belle did not irrationally fall in love with the Beast as a survival mechanism due to abuse--she only did so after she began to understand what kind of a person he really was, and only after he began to treat her right and release her, no questions asked. Before this, she stubbornly stood up to him, and didn't take his side when he was doing bad things just to gain his favor.
    As I said, there's another side to the story. Let's remember however that the Beast makes Belle stay at the castle in exchange for her father's life, and actually refuses to let her eat at one point because she doesn't want to sit with him - those could very well be seen as abusive or controlling actions. He's also under the curse in the first place because of his cruelty. The fact that he's kinder later in the film and "grows up" doesn't mitigate his previous actions.

    This, to me, is a strange message to derive from Disney's Beauty and the Beast--Belle didn't love the Beast until he learned, like so many young people have to, not to be so self-absorbed. For contrast, Gaston was inherently this way, while the Beast just needed to grow up. Even Belle could not see past his initial behavior, and she hated his guts, but when he started to grow out of it, then she could see who he really was. It's nothing like the real-life cases that come up on Dr. Phil all the time.
    I wasn't talking about B&B specifically there. I was talking about the theme in general that abuse/poor treatment should be accepted because the abuser will change through love/effort. That's something that comes up in a lot of films; and not just those made by Disney.

  2. #32

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by DobbysCloset View Post
    Other than that I think that sometimes we Princesses & Queens confuse men with dogs; dogs will give you unconditional love, but humans of both genders are more primitive.
    Unconditional love among humans is only between parents and their children, and even then it has some limits in extreme cases. Any other kind of love (or active relationship, at least) should be conditional and mutual (a "two-way street"), or else something is truly messed up and unhealthy (e.g. marrying somebody who doesn't care about you and only takes advantage of you, just because you have "feelings" for them for some inexplicable reason). You have to love yourself, too, at least enough not to sacrifice everything for somebody who doesn't give a crap about you.

    And as much as I admire certain qualities that canines possess, some of which could even be called "noble," humans are not more primitive than they are. In real life, dogs can never truly be villains, but humans have reason and morality, and are therefore accountable for what we do and the choices we make (unless we've clinically flipped our lids).

  3. #33

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    As far as Snow (1938), Aurora (1959), & Cinderella (1950) go you have to remember the era in which they were originally created as well as the era the in which the movies were released. Those 3 are products of another generation and they (& the Princes) need to be recognized for what they are, the reflection of society as it existed then and not expect them to reflect modern values or attitudes.
    They did remake Snow White into two live versions, and in both of them, as I recall, Snow White was an action hero.

    Was it dated that Prince Charming was the one who kissed Snow White and woke her up from that death-like eternal sleep?

    I could see that magical aspect of the film still being used, but I guess they could make Snow White more "outdoorsy" and a survivor girl who has to live in the wild with animals for years, or something like that.

    Just brought up this whole true love's kiss thing as Disney is remaking Sleeping Beauty into a live action affair, and that seems to be a well known plot facet. It will be interesting to see how Maleficent handles the story of Sleeping Beauty.

    Though Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella are dated, they seem to be in the top five princesses that girls like maybe the DVDs make the story more modern.

  4. #34

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    As I said, there's another side to the story. Let's remember however that the Beast makes Belle stay at the castle in exchange for her father's life, and actually refuses to let her eat at one point because she doesn't want to sit with him - those could very well be seen as abusive or controlling actions. He's also under the curse in the first place because of his cruelty. The fact that he's kinder later in the film and "grows up" doesn't mitigate his previous actions.
    I think this is part of the plot for a straight to home video sequel. Belle fills a legal claim against the Beast for unlawful imprisonment, kidnapping, and probable LSD poisoning as she claims that the furniture seem to come to life. The beast, explaining his side of the story, claims that a nasty witch cursed him just because he was having a bad hair day and that he was not responsible for his actions as the beast as he was under the influence of primitive animal instincts. The story ends when Belle and the Beast put aside the lawsuit and instead file suit against the witch for endangering the village by creating a beast in the first place. OSHA then closes the beast's castle because the stairwells are too wide.

    Maybe Gaston had it right when he decided to bring the pitch fork folks to the castle.

  5. #35

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post

    1. Gaston. Yeah, I know he's not a Disney prince, but it seems that as Disney wanted to break the princess mould with Belle, they juxtaposed her with a complete male chauvanistic pig to bring out her good qualities, Gaston was kinda a new low for Disney male characters.
    I do not understand the logic of this one...... Gaston is the BAD GUY of the movie! That is why he doesn't have any good qualities.

  6. #36

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    They did remake Snow White into two live versions, and in both of them, as I recall, Snow White was an action hero.

    Was it dated that Prince Charming was the one who kissed Snow White and woke her up from that death-like eternal sleep?

    I could see that magical aspect of the film still being used, but I guess they could make Snow White more "outdoorsy" and a survivor girl who has to live in the wild with animals for years, or something like that.

    Just brought up this whole true love's kiss thing as Disney is remaking Sleeping Beauty into a live action affair, and that seems to be a well known plot facet. It will be interesting to see how Maleficent handles the story of Sleeping Beauty.

    Though Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella are dated, they seem to be in the top five princesses that girls like maybe the DVDs make the story more modern.
    You mean like how they've portrayed all the characters in Once Upon A Time? I think that version of the fairy tales as Disney sees them has ushered in a whole new modern twist.
    Peter Pan: "You know, your hair is on fire."
    Me: "Yes. It happened after a recent trip to Neverland."
    Peter Pan: "Well, you can dunk your head in the pond behind us, if you want."

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  7. #37

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    What bothers me about some of the Disney princesses is their passivity - with Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc. they wait for someone to come and save them.

    With Merida in Brave, I agree that she is the heroine and villain in the same film.
    I don't think Merida was the villain (that is Mordu), yeah she tried to get a witch to solve her problems . . . but I think most of her problems stemmed from the fact that she's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Belle would be in Mensa, and Merida would be struggling to get her GED.

    A lot of people think that Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are passive, but they didn't spend the whole movie waiting. Didn't they have to eek out a living in a cottage somewhere? That's actually pretty hard to do, just bolt off into the forest to escape whatever wickedness. And I don't remember the prince doing anything in the original Snow White, other than waking her up. It will be interesting to see how they deal with Sleeping Beauty in Maleficent, it will be different in that Aurora will probably do more than dance and hang out with fairies.

  8. #38

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Maleficent blurb from wiki:

    The story revolves around a fairy, Maleficent, who is desperately searching for acceptance and desires to be the mistress of all fairies. However, will darkness prevail as she chooses her path to superiority?

    Well, well, well, fire breathing dragon Maleficent started off as a fairy. Something tells me that Juno Temple as "Thistlewit" is going to be one of her fellow fairies who tries to talk her out of going evil.

  9. #39

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    This is all just typical gender roles and stereotypes in media. It will never completely go away, be completely accurate, ideal, or what everyone wants to see or hear. Like, why do we never get to know the prince? They are all fairly interchangeable. Why does the princess need him so bad?

    I think all of that is fine. Disney should not be held responsible for what children may or may not take away from these fictional stories. Although Disney may seem like a big evil corporation you have to remember that behind every film put out by the company, there is an artist who has a story to tell. Whether that story has a inept slightly sleazy male lead or an innocent, weak, damsel in distress, it is still the story that some person wanted to tell. This isn't propaganda after all.

    Its one thing to not support media you don't agree with. But when you start holding disney accountable for supposed social repercussions or demanding media reflect your world views and opinions, what are you saying about that one writer or producer who had a piece of art he or she wanted to create? When you get down to it, this is all art created by individual artists with a vision. I would hate to live in a world where all artists are obligated to create a 100% accurate or ideal depiction of our world.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  10. #40

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    As I said, there's another side to the story.
    I saw that, but I wanted to point out how the "Stockholm syndrome lens" distorts the image and does not accurately reflect what is in the movie. At no point does Belle change her perspective or develop feelings for the Beast due to sheer terror of abuse. In fact, the moment he became physically menacing (although he had no intention of actually harming her physically, as far as we can tell from the audience perspective), she took off and attempted to escape despite having promised to stay. Belle is rational throughout, or about as much as one can be when emotions are involved. I just think it's irritating how people keep invoking Stockholm syndrome when it doesn't apply, at least in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Let's remember however that the Beast makes Belle stay at the castle in exchange for her father's life, and actually refuses to let her eat at one point because she doesn't want to sit with him - those could very well be seen as abusive or controlling actions.
    Oh, definitely. The Beast was effectively the villain at this point in the story, which of course enhances the drama. He was acting like a big selfish baby--or more like a toddler, actually, if you've ever had the experience of caring for one or more of those--and the rage resulting from being punished in this manner and the hopelessness he felt, along with whatever beastly qualities were added/enhanced by his transformation (a common element in most versions of the story), certainly didn't help matters. The point, though, is that Belle reacted normally to such behavior and treatment--not like somebody who "flipped her lid" psychologically as a survival mechanism, going to irrational lengths to appease her tormentor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    He's also under the curse in the first place because of his cruelty.
    All we know from the introduction is that he was "spoiled, selfish, and unkind," and that he had "no love in his heart"--in short, he didn't care about others. But we could see that Belle's selflessness in taking her father's place affected the Beast early on, even though he resisted allowing himself to feel any hope. The despair that he felt was palpable (showed up in several scenes when Belle was not present), and was expressed as passive-aggressive behavior that invited failure--this was more of an expression of his self-absorption and hopelessness than cruelty that was committed for pleasure (the latter would have made him a true villain, which I seriously doubt was the intention). All of this tells us something about the character--that he was not really evil and may in fact be capable of developing beyond the behavior he had exhibited, which he did later on. Belle eventually came to the same conclusion, albeit later because she was shown less than the audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    The fact that he's kinder later in the film and "grows up" doesn't mitigate his previous actions.
    It's a matter of understanding and forgiving, not mitigating as nobody can undo what they've done when they had a different perspective and outlook on life. What it does NOT mean is that Belle fell in love with the Beast when he was still behaving badly, and that her irrational love for him changed him fundamentally as a person. No, he fell in love with Belle first because of her noble qualities (and whatever other reasons people fall in love), and this gave him a whole new perspective on everything, bringing out a latent part of himself that had never come to the surface before, for whatever reasons. This was the guy--one who was capable of great sacrifice for the sake of others--that Belle, in turn, fell in love with subsequently.

    People do change in real life sometimes, and this is how it usually comes about--not a fundamental change, as one's inner personality is at some deep level immutable, but by changing one's perspective based on learning from life, especially when subjected to extreme experiences and conditions, such as struggling for one's life (in the case of the Beast, that and saving somebody else's). I've seen real people changing in this manner, myself. Youngsters growing into adulthood goes without saying, but even older people can change their views dramatically at times (doesn't happen frequently, but movies usually aren't about common occurrences anyway, and this movie involves young people on top of that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    I wasn't talking about B&B specifically there. I was talking about the theme in general that abuse/poor treatment should be accepted because the abuser will change through love/effort. That's something that comes up in a lot of films; and not just those made by Disney.
    I'll give this some more thought and do some pointed observation. Who knows, maybe it'll change my perspective. For now, all I can say is that even real, healthy love relationships involve accepting some things that you don't like about your partner but cannot change, as well as small things that one can change in order to have a better relationship. Although you weren't talking about Beauty and the Beast specifically here, there are examples of this in the movie as well, such as when the Beast tried to use a spoon but failed, and Belle compromised by sipping directly from the bowl (later on we see that the Beast has gotten better--not what Belle wants, I'm sure, but the effort was appreciated). I've long been under the impression that some level of compromise and acceptance is required of any type of relationship, since nobody is perfect or a perfect match for anybody else. Those who care about another will, within reason, try to accommodate them, either through changing behavior or acceptance. The question is where to "draw the line." Could you help me out by giving some examples, in Disney movies, where the proverbial "line" has, in your view, been crossed?
    Last edited by Robert Cook; 05-04-2013 at 06:14 PM.

  11. #41

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post
    I'll give this some more thought and do some pointed observation. Who knows, maybe it'll change my perspective. For now, all I can say is that even real, healthy love relationships involve accepting some things that you don't like about your partner but cannot change, as well as small things that one can change in order to have a better relationship. Although you weren't talking about Beauty and the Beast specifically here, there are examples of this in the movie as well, such as when the Beast tried to use a spoon but failed, and Belle compromised by sipping directly from the bowl (later on we see that the Beast has gotten better--not what Belle wants, I'm sure, but the effort was appreciated). I've long been under the impression that some level of compromise and acceptance is required of any type of relationship, since nobody is perfect or a perfect match for anybody else. Those who care about another will, within reason, try to accommodate them, either through changing behavior or acceptance. The question is where to "draw the line." Could you help me out by giving some examples, in Disney movies, where the proverbial "line" has, in your view, been crossed?
    We're not talking about compromises made in normal friendships and romantic relationships. We're talking about abuse. Two different things. There's a marked difference between accepting people's flaws and accepting abuse and maltreatment. There's neither call nor justification for accepting, compromising on or accommodating ANY situation in which someone is being physically or emotionally abused, regardless of familial or marital link.

    And is this an issue in film? Well, it's not a Disney film but when we have little girls who think Edward from Twilight is dreamy - when he meets every single diagnostic criteria for abusive/controlling partners (http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/books-to...hy-should-care) - it becomes problematic. When we think that a character who kidnaps someone, is controlling, physically violent and has an explosive temper just needs to "change and grow up", as the Beast does, it's a problem. End of debate, for me, at least.
    Last edited by Malina; 05-04-2013 at 06:38 PM.

  12. #42

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Disneyland. Shouldn't these be in some other section of the forum?

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    ^ Good point, Mojave. Thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps a mod could move this thread to the Walt Disney Studios section?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I don't think Merida was the villain (that is Mordu), yeah she tried to get a witch to solve her problems . . . but I think most of her problems stemmed from the fact that she's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Belle would be in Mensa, and Merida would be struggling to get her GED.
    I would definitely disagree that Mor'du is the villain. Through most of the movie, he's non-existent. A villain does something to oppose the protagonists of the film to create conflict, and quite frankly, Mor'du doesn't do that until the very end of the film (besides a few extremely brief seconds in the middle), and even then, it's not really something "villainous"--he has no immoral intentions or schemes, he's purely an animal bear acting on his brutal instincts. It's more of a coincidental encounter that puts Merida in danger. I don't think makes him the "villain" of the film. It's only during the very last portion of the movie that his presence in the film is anything significant and even then his contribution to the film barely adds anything to Merida's conflict with her mom and growth as a character. He's in no way involved in the spell, no way involved with her mom's transformation, and only contributes to the conflict by acting as a threat to Merida during the climax, but he is in no way deliberately involved with putting her into that situation, he has no control over his actions and no structured thoughts--he is not what the protagonists must overcome to defeat the conflict, he is not the driving force behind the characters' struggles, he does not directly oppose them besides a few fleeting seconds of battle as he acts on his animal instincts. I don't think that Brave really has a pure villain in the traditional sense--and though I'm not the biggest fan of the film, I really do admire that. In each of the characters, there are villainous traits, and it is these flaws (mainly their stubbornness, in this case) are what create conflicts and oppose the character's chances at a happy ending--not Mor'du.

  14. #44

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I don't think Merida was the villain (that is Mordu), yeah she tried to get a witch to solve her problems . . . but I think most of her problems stemmed from the fact that she's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Belle would be in Mensa, and Merida would be struggling to get her GED.
    Merida's also in an environment where learning is not prized and emphasized the way it is in Belle's home, so we can't really compare. Plus Belle would be smart enough to know that Mensa is boring and isn't worth her time (and I am speaking as a former Mensa member who finally decided the org is useless, LOL!).

    A lot of people think that Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are passive, but they didn't spend the whole movie waiting. Didn't they have to eek out a living in a cottage somewhere? That's actually pretty hard to do, just bolt off into the forest to escape whatever wickedness.
    Snow White does flee, but only after the Huntsman tells her to run. Up until that point she's resigned to her fate as a servant. Then she lives in a cottage in domestic bliss until she eats an apple, gets Sleeping Deathed-out and waits for the cavalry.

    Sleeping Beauty spends the entire film doing what she's told. She goes to the forest for the day but returns to her cottage, sniffles a bit but gamely complies when she's told "sorry, you can't have the nice boy you met in the woods. You're betrothed and get to marry a complete stranger! Lucky girl!" gets hypnotized by Maleficent, falls asleep and can't do anything, and then wakes up when Phillip comes to the rescue. Neither character really has much agency.

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    Re: Why are a lot of the Disney Princes such Creeps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Merida's also in an environment where learning is not prized and emphasized the way it is in Belle's home, so we can't really compare. Plus Belle would be smart enough to know that Mensa is boring and isn't worth her time (and I am speaking as a former Mensa member who finally decided the org is useless, LOL!).
    If you define intelligence as being able to adapt and successfully navigate everyday circumstances, then I wouldn't define Merida as being very intelligent. There's an aspect of intelligence that is emergent, irregardless of whether or not education is emphasized. We also don't have any reason to believe that Merida's education hasn't been neglected, she is a princess after all, and as the king's daughter we might assume she had private tutors available to her. Whether she avails herself of said opportunities is another question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post

    Snow White does flee, but only after the Huntsman tells her to run. Up until that point she's resigned to her fate as a servant. Then she lives in a cottage in domestic bliss until she eats an apple, gets Sleeping Deathed-out and waits for the cavalry.

    Sleeping Beauty spends the entire film doing what she's told. She goes to the forest for the day but returns to her cottage, sniffles a bit but gamely complies when she's told "sorry, you can't have the nice boy you met in the woods. You're betrothed and get to marry a complete stranger! Lucky girl!" gets hypnotized by Maleficent, falls asleep and can't do anything, and then wakes up when Phillip comes to the rescue. Neither character really has much agency.
    While Snow White doesn't have much moxie, she also is quite young and inexperienced in the ways of the world. And while the prince wakes her up, he's also a sort of just a two-dimensional character. The heart of Snow White, in my opinion, is Snow White's interaction with the dwarfs and the nuttiness of that. Without an innocent and kinda clueless Snow White, some of the scenes wouldn't have worked. Snow White is really a fish out of water sort of story, and I think because Snow White isn't involved in the action of hunting down the witch (she's unconscious, good excuse) people think the movie is dated.

    Newer princess movies such as Brave seem to be a lot more serious, we wouldn't see Merida playing with, say her brothers after they are transformed into bears, but rather the feel of the whole movie is of an action movie.

    I really loved Brave, and I fully expect to love Frozen . . . but I think that princess movies are becoming more like animated Die Hard films where there is a lot of thick drama, personality conflicts and action. I think that in order to draw in boys, who are exposed to a lot more action in films, Disney sprinkles on the warrior princess angle, Merida has her bows, Rapunzel seemed like she was trained in martial arts in some scenes. Of course, many girls will like the Xena princess warrior vibe too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post

    Sleeping Beauty spends the entire film doing what she's told. She goes to the forest for the day but returns to her cottage, sniffles a bit but gamely complies when she's told "sorry, you can't have the nice boy you met in the woods. You're betrothed and get to marry a complete stranger! Lucky girl!" gets hypnotized by Maleficent, falls asleep and can't do anything, and then wakes up when Phillip comes to the rescue. Neither character really has much agency.

    I haven't seen Sleeping Beauty in a while, forgot about her being in the Merriwether witness protection program, doubtlessly Disney will rewrite the story some. Scripts have also changed, there's a lot more humor, sarcasm, wit . . . the old fairytales where kinda bland. Nowadays everything third line needs to be a joke.

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