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  1. #31

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    1) Scale - WDW is orders of magnitude bigger, more complex, more involved, and much more to watch after
    Point taken but do they really need all the hotels? That's what I liked about the original concept for EPCOT: one big stinking hotel in the middle of it. Seriously the hotels are getting more work done on them then the actual show.

  2. #32

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    The pics are old... but still...

    The roof in the Maelstrom waiting room is rotting. By the way....
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  3. #33

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyTimmyTimmy View Post
    The pics are old... but still...

    The roof in the Maelstrom waiting room is rotting. By the way....
    To be fair considering the rain Florida gets it's pretty normal to see roofs rot. But yeah that's also disappointing to see.

  4. #34

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    It's a combination of things

    1) Scale - WDW is orders of magnitude bigger, more complex, more involved, and much more to watch after
    2) Perception - the fan community here never sees the daily and weekly refurbs going on all around the property because this site doesn't have people that cover the good or changes with any detail
    3) Lower standards then in the past

    If you follow other sources, you find FAR more work going on in the park. For instance have you been following the rebuilding of the resturant in Japan? Or how about the geyser in BTM? Or how about the MASSIVE overhaul of the Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse? Or the Adventure land rehabs? Or the Carusaul rehab?

    And this is all stuff just in the last month. This site is not representative of what is being done in the parks.

    So I think the answer is more about 'scale'. There is a TON of work being done, it's just dwarfed by the amount of things that need to be done on a regular basis so things fall behind the standards some expect.
    I understand that size takes a huge part in why something's get left for to long. I also understand that the humidity means that everything requires more maintanance. However, from what I've seen, even when something goes down for a refurb it seems like blarring problems from before the refurb aren't fixed during the refurb. Dirty space mountain, messed up path on Swiss family Robinson's, and other similar blatant left over maintanance problems are what really irks me. If you have it down for a month how hard is it to have it down for an extra day to clean it up?
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  5. #35

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Yes, WDW is bigger than Disneyland, and thus takes more to maintain. But due to that same greater size and greater guest capacity, it also takes in more money. I highly doubt that the income-per-square-foot ratio of WDW is less than DLR's. If anything, it's probably more ,because the percentage of annual passes to tourists is lower.

    ---------- Post added 12-14-2011 at 07:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco21 View Post
    I still don't understand why Disneyland's upkeep is so much better than WDW's. Is it just management not wanting to spend the money? I really think that someone would figure out that people are not happy with it and at least attempt to increase maintenance at least a little.
    There are probably several factors, but the main one I see is that DLR has more regular visitors than WDW. It's closer to highly populated areas, and so there are more people with annual passes coming more than once a year, and some coming much more often. They notice when something's in decline, and so it gets brought to management's attention.

    Also, fewer DLR guests are going to get upset if their favorite ride is down for maintenance, because they'll get a chance to ride it again soon. (However, WDW could work around that by doing more regular , minor, after-hours preventive work to keep rides from getting so bad they need to be closed for major work.)

  6. #36

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    There are probably several factors, but the main one I see is that DLR has more regular visitors than WDW. It's closer to highly populated areas, and so there are more people with annual passes coming more than once a year, and some coming much more often. They notice when something's in decline, and so it gets brought to management's attention.

    Also, fewer DLR guests are going to get upset if their favorite ride is down for maintenance, because they'll get a chance to ride it again soon. (However, WDW could work around that by doing more regular , minor, after-hours preventive work to keep rides from getting so bad they need to be closed for major work.)
    Makes sense but WDW's management also seems to want to always cut corners to fuel next gen (then again I don't recall seeing an ugly cable sticking out of the control booth for IASW). I'm not saying WDW is in horrible shape (it's far from it and the magic is still very present) I'm just saying I don't think the budget is placed in the right areas.
    Last edited by Twist1234; 12-14-2011 at 06:23 PM.

  7. #37

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by Twist1234 View Post
    Makes sense but WDW's management also seems to want to always cut corners to fuel next gen (then again I don't recall seeing an ugly cable sticking out of the control booth for IASW). I'm not saying WDW is in horrible shape (it's far from it and the magic is still very present) I'm just saying I don't think the budget is placed in the right areas.
    I totally agree. It seems odd to me to be spending so much on new bells and whistles when they aren't spending enough to keep the old ones in order.

  8. #38

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco21 View Post
    I understand that size takes a huge part in why something's get left for to long. I also understand that the humidity means that everything requires more maintanance. However, from what I've seen, even when something goes down for a refurb it seems like blarring problems from before the refurb aren't fixed during the refurb. Dirty space mountain, messed up path on Swiss family Robinson's, and other similar blatant left over maintanance problems are what really irks me. If you have it down for a month how hard is it to have it down for an extra day to clean it up?
    What do you mean messed up path and dirty space mountain?

    I think another significant factor in the perception is because so often the rehab work done at WDW is just that.. Rehabs... not reimagining or plussing. They rebuild stuff constantly, and when the work is done, it looks like it did before. People get let down because it's not upgraded, etc.

    WDW has been operating in an 'overhaul' mode instead of 'continual improvement'. Attractions get worn down, they overhaul them, and the cycle repeats. They don't take every overhaul as an opportunity to change the attraction. Contrast that with a model that says 'heavy investment in upkeep constantly, take the attraction down for long periods only to upgrade it'. People get used to 'long downtime' = changes. That's how the parks originally operated... but the world of operating 6 days a week, and offseasons are mostly gone.

    Now you have the park operating for such long hours year round. They put off smaller downtime and roll it all into longer overhauls spaced further apart. I think that is the real difference.

    It's potaTOE, poTAToe for getting the things fixed - but it is a difference of WHEN things get fixed and the associated downtime it takes to fix them. Combine that with false exceptions of coming changes, and people think they never do anything - which isn't true.

    Its a decision management must make... prioritize availability or prioritize pristine.

    Who is right or wrong is debatable and a matter of what you value.

    ---------- Post added 12-15-2011 at 11:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    Yes, WDW is bigger than Disneyland, and thus takes more to maintain. But due to that same greater size and greater guest capacity, it also takes in more money. I highly doubt that the income-per-square-foot ratio of WDW is less than DLR's. If anything, it's probably more ,because the percentage of annual passes to tourists is lower.
    WDW also has much higher overhead. Check out WDW's transportation fleet vs DL for just one example. Or how about the amount of utilities, infrastructure, parking lots, landscaping, etc. I mean, landscaping alone I doubt all of DLR would match a single hotel at WDW.

    WDW isn't just a park that needs to pay for itself - it's in essence an entire city upon itself (and I'm not talking about the politics...) that must be sustained purely based on guest spending. Think of the armies of reservation agents, truck drivers, landscapers, trashmen, etc it takes to run that place... and that's just to keep the place going day to day.. not to speak of upgrades, refurb, etc.

    That's why staying on property and getting that revenue is so important to WDW.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    There are probably several factors, but the main one I see is that DLR has more regular visitors than WDW. It's closer to highly populated areas, and so there are more people with annual passes coming more than once a year, and some coming much more often. They notice when something's in decline, and so it gets brought to management's attention.
    The frequent visitor is definitely a major difference and influences what management will prioritize (keeping things operating vs perfection) but I don't think it changes what people will report or not. The difference is in what you notice...

    Drive down a street at 30mph... will you notice the window on the 3rd floor of the fourth house on the left is cracked? No.

    Drive down that street every day and the repetition will allow you to stop focusing on the large dominate things and free your brain to start to notice the smaller details. You'll also start noticing the variances between your trips.. so you'll notice something not because its significant, but because it's a change.

    It's the same here. Repetition allows you digest more and more of the information available - so lesser details can become more apparent.

    Same thing happens with guests in an attraction. There is a line so to speak about what will draw attention or not to guests. The standard is much higher when you have people are are very familiar with the attraction because the familiarity allows them to bypass information they already know.. and seek out new information. The mind is more free to find variations and distractions.
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  9. #39

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco21 View Post
    That's how I feel about it as well. They spend money on "plussing" rides at an extra cost when they really should be building all new rides. The Fantasyland expansion is huge but really doesn't add that much new stuff when you think about it. Another Dumbo, a C ticket roller coaster, a new dark ride (but also losing another dark ride), and more meet and greets. Really? Thats all they can do to compete with Potterland? I'm sorry but the Fantasyland Expansion should have been packed full of mind blowing rides and experiences but it just isn't. And Disney's latest greatest thing is... an extra cost fast pass system with a few other perks. Not really what I was hoping for at all.
    There's nothing wrong with plussing rides, mind you but when I think of plussing a ride, I am thinking more of finding a way to improve loading in hopes of shortening the lines. A silly idea but I wouldn't mind if they rebuilt the classic Peter Pan ride from scratch. Keep most of the ride the same except possibly expand the ride and have the ships increase capacity. This is of course the far opposite of Disney's approach which is interactive queues. Interactive queues may sound like a nice idea but the thing I don't like about them is that most of them involve touching objects and screens which turns these queues into germ factories. Getting sick in the happiest place on earth...what a way to spend a vacation.
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  10. #40

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Yes, WDW is bigger than Disneyland, and thus takes more to maintain. But due to that same greater size and greater guest capacity, it also takes in more money. I highly doubt that the income-per-square-foot ratio of WDW is less than DLR's. If anything, it's probably more ,because the percentage of annual passes to tourists is lower.

    WDW also has much higher overhead. Check out WDW's transportation fleet vs DL for just one example. Or how about the amount of utilities, infrastructure, parking lots, landscaping, etc. I mean, landscaping alone I doubt all of DLR would match a single hotel at WDW.
    Of course it has higher overhead. It also has a higher income to offset the higher overhead. The higher overhead brings in a higher number of guests, which creates a higher income.

    Jack runs a restaurant that seats 100. Jill's restaurant seats 300.
    Jack makes less money, but he has fewer expenses.
    Jill has to spend more money, but she MAKES more money as a result.

    ---------- Post added 12-15-2011 at 04:13 PM ----------

    They rebuild stuff constantly, and when the work is done, it looks like it did before. People get let down because it's not upgraded, etc.
    I sincerely doubt many people are let down by a ride not changing. As evidenced by the posts in this thread, the letdown comes when it's allowed to decay.

  11. #41

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by toonaspie View Post
    There's nothing wrong with plussing rides, mind you but when I think of plussing a ride, I am thinking more of finding a way to improve loading in hopes of shortening the lines.
    Totally agree, but if the lines were shorter, there wouldn't be any "demand" for XPa$$.

    And you know, come to think of it:

    Buzz Lightyear loaded extremely fast with waits almost never exceeding 20 minutes before Fastpass.

    Wait times for Small World increased exponentially when they reversed the queue a couple of years ago.

    Waiting in that horrible unthemed hallway in Space Mountain (introduced for the first time ever after its recent rehab) is pure torture. Who *wouldn't* want to pay to avoid that mess?

    And then there's Peter Pan. And Toy Story Mania.

    "Supply" and "demand." Coincidence or design?
    Last edited by Virtual Toad; 12-15-2011 at 03:42 PM.

  12. #42

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    Of course it has higher overhead. It also has a higher income to offset the higher overhead. The higher overhead brings in a higher number of guests, which creates a higher income.

    Jack runs a restaurant that seats 100. Jill's restaurant seats 300.
    Jack makes less money, but he has fewer expenses.
    Jill has to spend more money, but she MAKES more money as a result.[COLOR="#8b0000"]
    You are talking CAPACITY - not Overhead. Having more capacity generally requires more overhead but they are not the same thing. Second, revenues do not simply scale with your overhead. Guests do not decide to pay more for WDW because they have 300+ buses or because there is X more miles of highway to pay for, etc.

    The higher overhead I was referring to was to the larger infrastructure and operational needs of the parks. Yes WDW has a much higher capacity, but it's costs are not linear with capacity.. especially when WDW was built to support itself. Overhead is not a linear thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    I sincerely doubt many people are let down by a ride not changing. As evidenced by the posts in this thread, the letdown comes when it's allowed to decay.
    One only needs to read more threads here and otherwise to see people DO get upset over rides not changing. Want a recent example? Simple.. Space Mountain. People wanted the audio onboard and new track - they got neither and people slammed the refurb.
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  13. #43

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    Re: New Xpass fastpass Details discussed and elaborated on

    I do applaud a lot of this Nextgen tech. Just look at how many people opt to take the scenic route at the Haunted Mansion, see how much strangers get into playing the games with other strangers at Space Mountain.

    That being said, I would love to see them get some of the shine back. Like sparkling sidewalks, working light bulbs, extra Cast Members stuff like that.
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