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  1. #106

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Excellent points, Kevin; good perspective.

    And with that, I'm out of this thread. askmike1 clearly has everything under control.

  2. #107

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Okay, folks, let's go over the things that DL has that MK doesn't. And I'm comparing original DL attractions, not WDW imports like Innoventions. Obviously, without WDW those attractions wouldn't be there at all. I'm also not comparing makeover attractions like Tarzan's Treehouse instead of Swiss Family Robinson, etc.

    So here we are:

    1. Alice in Wonderland (Opinion: Okay, I've always like this ride so it's disappearance is noticeable to me.)

    2. Casey Jr Circus Train (Opinion: I'm not sure why this attraction was built since simply revolves around the Storybookland area and there's real trains on property. I'm guessing it's probably because of Walt Disney and his love of trains. Personally, I think that without the fact that it's old and Walt touched it, this attraction wouldn't be here, and I don't think a clone to Florida would have the same impact.)

    2a. Storybookland Canal (Opinion: I doubt this attraction would actually work all that well in Orlando even if they tried to put it there. It's the weather. When the temperatures are high and the humidity is through the roof, do you really want to be on a slow ride to nowhere while some girl reads you a fairy tale and/or points out landmarks? I think this wouldn't be a logical idea.)

    3. Canoes

    4. Grand Canyon/Primeval World (Opinon: I'm putting them together because you can't experience one without the other. Personally, I'm beginning to find these to be ugly in recent years but the train travels over an office building and they needed some way to explain the long tunnel. Without the building, and without the dinosaurs being the World's Fair originals like at DL, I don't see why these ought be cloned for MK. It's another "Walt built this, don't tear it down" showpiece that lacks that impact if duplicated.)

    5. Indiana Jones dark ride (Opinion: Yep, major omission here)

    6. Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln (Opinion: Another 60s showpiece. Done better, and more following Walt's vision of what was to come, with the Hall of Presidents. At least consider them a push.)

    7. Matterhorn (Opinion: A point of "mountain envy" by WDW-goers for many years. This wasn't constructed in the MK becuase the Florida weather would shut it down often. That hasn't changed. Furthermore, the Matterhorn is now outdated, the track being first of it's kind and now needing constant TLC to stay online. A cloned Matterhorn would have no claim, so why clone it?)

    8. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride (A victim of Pooh The Rideslayer over in Orlando. But they still have the Country Bears, and neither of the missing attractions were that popular with the core audience so all in all I'd call it a draw.)

    9. Pinnochio (Okay, another reasonably big loss. I wonder why the cloned the incomplete-feeling Snow White but not this?)

    10. Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin (Another dark ride loss.)

    11. Columbia (Opinion: This ship traditionally only leaves it's dock when the crowds get high. That and it follows the same track as the Mark Twain makes it a negligable addition IMO, although others may vary.)

    We end with a dozen attractions, two of which wouldn't be successful in Florida's climate, 4 that get by on being historic when a clone can't be, a boat that floats around the Rivers just like the Twain/Belle do, and five actual missing attractions that ought to be added.

    Now as for the Magic Kingdom I have to say this: WEDway, Timekeeper, Stitch's Great Escape, Mickey's PhilharMagic, Aladdin's Magic Carpets.

    Five rides. And I didn't even include the Carousel because I included that in the Walt Built It clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill
    Ahem, the WDW MK would (and will) end up catering just as much to locals as Disneyland Park does if marketing did their job correctly in Florida. WDW's local following just isn't as large yet because it's newer. But it's getting there.
    Actually, Disneyland is kind of guilty of giving away the farm to locals, for few good returns and plenty of bad ones.

  3. #108

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill
    That's fine! Glad to have another perspective!

    Well, the first visit is always the one that gets you in awe of everything here... but just by looking at a map of the Magic Kingdom you should be able to notice that the Magic Kingdom Park has less to offer than Disneyland Park.
    I'm not going to quote everything you said here, but I will grant that, taken out of their respective surroundings, Disneyland Park has more to offer than MK Park. Yet their surroundings do help to define the experience one has there.

    Disneyland was built to stand alone. A berm separates it from the outside world. Very little of Disneyland can be seen from outside the park, and little of the outside world makes it on.Walking through the tunnel into Main Street is a dramatic experience.

    By contrast the drama in entering the MK unfolds slowly. Instead of a berm, the MK appears surrounded by a lake and is connected to resort hotels. You can see the castle from afar and the views are expansive. The MK was never intended to stand alone. It's part of a much larger resort, even from the beginning.

    And that is the core of what makes them different. While I will agree that the MK alone has less to offer than Disneyland Park, it's far from horrible, and it's impossible to experience the MK separately from the resort that it's a part of.

    Isn't it wonderful that we are so passionate about it?

  4. #109

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Quote Originally Posted by speederscout
    LOLOL... "Disney makes a little mistake"?!?? I'm sure that explains the big push they're making to sell still more APs during the Christmas season. Obviously Disneyland has a much wider attendance base than you imagine. When was the last time you strolled through the park to come to your amazing conclusions?
    I think you misread what I meant (or more likely, I worded it poorly). I was just using a hypothetical example that if Disneyland makes a little mistake (like one of it's castmember's points with one finger), everyone jumps on them. (I hope you didn't think I was calling DL APers a bad mistake )

    Ahem, if Disney World ever did a Light Magic, you can bet we'd be all over it.
    That would be a big mistake. I was going for a little mistake (like what I wrote above). On a side note, the problem of LM wasn't only that it was a bad show, it was largly due to the fact that it went through too many changes, and it wasn't finished when they did the preview. (Or maybe because it was a crappy show )


    Do yourself a favor and look at a map. The designs are nothing alike. There is no such Hub in AK. A circular pathway is at the center of the park. Animal Kingdom doesn't even have remotely related themes to the Magic Kingdom unless you think a Magic Kingdom Style Park is entirely Adventureland with live animals. LOL
    A) Okay, I'm sorry the exact path layout isn't the same, but I was going for more of a general layout. They both have the hub spoke design with most lands connecting to the hub (discovery island/mk hub) and spoking out. (Yes, I know spoking is not a word)
    B) I never said they had the same themes

    Don't say the locals don't care.
    I never did.

    And with that, I'm out of this thread. askmike1 clearly has everything under control.
    Clearly.
    “You can design and create, and build the most wonderful place in the world. But it takes people to make the dream a reality.” - Walt Disney

  5. #110

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Hmm... MickeyMania, I think you're forgetting that the versions of attractions Disneyland does have are much better than the WDW Counterparts... Autopia, Peter Pan, Snow White, Fantasmic!, Haunted Mansion (Holiday), Pirates of the Caribbean, "it's a small world" (Holiday) Jolly Trolley, Goofy's Bounce House, Donald's Boat, Jungle Cruise, Mickey's House, Buzz Lightyear, Space Mountain, Wishes (Remember) , Disneyland: The First 50 Years, various shops, Blue Bayou, Club 33, The Subs, and Star Tours.

    I think you're leaving out a few things. And Casey Jr. RR would work fine in Florida as a kiddie rollercoaster. But it's really not needed, I agree. There's a lot more that I didn't mention. Disneyland has more than just what you mentioned.

  6. #111

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Wow, this topic moves fast! And now to reply to the stuff on page six so far...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinYee
    So the MK had 1971-1989 to hog the "plussing" budget; a mere 18 years. Disneyland had 1955-2001... a significantly-longer 46 years.
    Actually, I've felt that since 1988 when the GF and the CBR opened, with MGM following just after, that WDW as a whole was a crack monkey on DL's budget.

    Even when Disney was falling into disaster, Disneyland kept getting new things. Space Mountain in one year, redesigned Matterhorn the very next year, Big Thunder the very next year after that. Boy, you sure didn't see that again once WDW expanded beyond the MK. And this was after Walt had passed on, so Disneyland didn't keep getting new rides from Walt's deals with third parties ala Carousel and IASW.

    After WDW started building up, DL started getting one big ride a decade. 80s? Splash Mountain. 90s? Indy. The end.

    Bill: There'd be no point in building a Star Tours in the MK tomorrow now that another park in the resort already has it. That's a done deal, like it or not, and I'm looking at the rides that COULD be added to MK tomorrow.

  7. #112

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill
    Hmm... MickeyMania, I think you're forgetting that the versions of attractions Disneyland does have are much better than the WDW Counterparts...
    I think your forgetting that "better" is in the eye of the beholder.

    And Casey Jr. RR would work fine in Florida as a kiddie rollercoaster.
    Yeah, but then you'd have everyone b****ing that Disney put another kiddie attraction in (need I bring up the Pooh's Playground threads?).

    -Michael
    “You can design and create, and build the most wonderful place in the world. But it takes people to make the dream a reality.” - Walt Disney

  8. #113

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    That would be a big mistake. I was going for a little mistake (like what I wrote above). On a side note, the problem of LM wasn't only that it was a bad show, it was largly due to the fact that it went through too many changes, and it wasn't finished when they did the preview. (Or maybe because it was a crappy show )
    Nah. Don't say that. It would have been an amazing show if it wasn't for all the problems that happened. Most of the bad stuff that happened wasn't the producer's fault. And you can easilly tell this by the other projects he did.
    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    A) Okay, I'm sorry the exact path layout isn't the same, but I was going for more of a general layout. They both have the hub spoke design with most lands connecting to the hub (discovery island/mk hub) and spoking out. (Yes, I know spoking is not a word)
    B) I never said they had the same themes
    Umm... go over to AK and take a walk. You should see how the park is nothing like the Magic Kingdom. The layout isn't even remotely similiar. and there is no hub in AK. The spokes aren't even straight, and they connect to basically nothing... The reason I'm so careful about this subject is because AK's pathways were designed specifically to NOT be anything like the Magic Kingdom's paths or layout. The park was designed with the mindset for you to explore. The Magic Kingdom style is organized beyond belief. Though Tokyo's hub is huge, it's still nowhere as large as the gaint circle on Discovery Island. It's not even a hub, it's more like the inner part of a spiked tire leaking air and covered in motor oil. Don't even try to compare the parks... they aren't even the least alike. And don't you dare try to show me a map and tell me, "look, it's the same." Not that you'd even try such a thing, because I know you're pretty darn smart. But maybe if you got an arial shot of both parks, you'd see just how different they are. I think you just kind of chose a really bad example and I jumped on it. Sorry about that.

  9. #114

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    I think incendiary nature of the wording of this thread has some people feeling very threatened. I wouldn't call the park horrible, but I also understand the post was made somewhat in jest after Bill pointed out just how magical he found DL to be.

    I still greatly enjoy the MK. Even the wretched current management hasn't destroyed the inate wonderfulness of the place (oh, but they're working on it.)

    I was about to completely agree with Kevin Yee (hey, that rhymes!) when he said by his logic it was the size of the WDW resort that made it an apples and oranges discussion. I don't agree with that, even if I agree with all his logic leading up to it. There's no doubt that after the 90s began, and after the EuroDisney financial debacle ended all those grandiose Disney Decade dreams, something profoundly different happened at WDW.

    The business model changed drastically. From what some would term as little things, like attractions like the Penny Arcade needing to show a certain level of profit to exist, to cutting corners on things, to overbuilding resorts and timeshares, it became apparent that Eisner and Co. weren't willing to adequetly invest in existing parks by plussing them. The goal was to keep people on property longer so they'd spend more and that meant more resorts and higher caliber dining and, oh yeah, DAK too! It didn't mean a new E-Ticket every 2-4 years at the existing parks.

    The problem is that much of the online WDW fan community knows Disney from only one thing -- WDW largely in the past decade. They don't know what WDW used to be like. They have never been in Anaheim, let alone Tokyo or Paris.

    So when you gently, or not so in my case, try and lay things on the table, people feel like you're attacking them. 'I love Test Track. WDW1974 says it's for bumpkins and was a waste of a hundred million dollars. Therefore he must think I'm an ignorant rube. Defense mechanism on. Let's attack him.'

    In other words, they don't think. They just respond from pure emotion. It makes threads like this super tough to navigate.

    This is about a whole lot more than whether Pirates at DL blows the Orlando version away or whether you think McPoohland is a proper fit for the MK.

    It goes to the heart of what I have been posting online for a couple of years now, perspective. Some of us have it, some of us have a lot less of it. Perspective comes from experience and as I've said before if I was about to be wheeled into surgery, I wouldn't want DoogieMikey operating on me (I'm sure he'd give me a labotomy!). When I get on a plane I feel very good when I see my 767 is being piloted by a 50-year-old, not a hotshot 25-year-old. Does anyone see where I'm going with this? It's late and I'm awfully tired after wading through all of Mike's posts (OK, insert smilie).

    I honestly -- and very strongly -- know that some posters viewpoints deserve a bit more thought because of their perspective, their track record and what/who they know.

    So on that note, goodnight everybody!

  10. #115

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Heh, well, let me share my perspective of a DL vet looking far east and why I feel the way I do:

    I have already mentioned the past of DL. The place used to get new things to look at constantly. The mid-60s, of course, provided a bunch of attractions to Disneyland but they weren't built with Disney's money but paid for by sponsors at the World's Fair. But even then, Disneyland had a lot changes. And then in the 70s, I've mentioned that the park received two new E-tickets and an E-ticket makeover in three consecutive years. And then WDW built a lot more hotels and a third park and one could hear the giant sucking sound of funding in Anaheim.

    It's odd that the MK's version of Pirates is so crippled compared to DL's, since Post-1988 WDW is "The Park that has the Better Version Of (X)." Splash? DL's version is cute, but the ride vehicles are less comfortable and they clearly saved a lot of money by recycling old America Sings figures.

    When Disney buys a new property or creates a new star, you can be sure it will be paraded around WDW immediately and possibly given it's own attraction within 18 months. At DL, they'll create a temporary-looking Meet & Greet, add them to the character parade, and maybe there'll be rumors about a ride but they never get around to making it due to lack of funds or politics, etc.

    When Disney gets an agreement to create an attraction based on the Twilight Zone, who gets it? WDW. When Disney creates their first serious coaster with loops and inversions and everything else, who gets it? WDW.

    I can not even figure out where to begin with the hotels. Tour the increasingly run-down looking Disneyland Hotel for an idea of what we considered to be the gold standard here. I'm sure the Grand Californian is nice (no, I haven't visited since the expansions opened) but it's alone as far as quality goes (unless you want to start comparing to the neighborhood Hyatts and Westins), and no matter what the case something as large and detailed as Coronado Springs, "moderate" by WDW standards, would blow the doors off almost everything in Anaheim.

    Downtown Disney for DL works well considering the increased targeting of locals as a core audience, but the one in WDW is a miniature Vegas strip when it comes to shopping and entertainment (minus the boobs and the blackjack. ) Cirque du Soleil, House of Blues, Planet Hollywood, Rainforest Cafe, nightlife and a bunch more all packed together in one stretch.

    I know all this happens for a reason, and I'll be the first to tell DL fans that WDW has to fill a lot of Disney rooms and needs to get large shares of advertising, large shares of funding, and large shares of important attractions in order to keep afloat. But things weren't like this before they began building out like madmen in the late 80s.

    In essence, when someone starts complaining about WDW being lousy and why can't it be like DL, I begin think that they're out of their minds. Actually, I think like the DL people who finally got the paint and refurbs they've wanted but now have new issues to complain about, some people are never satisfied. Logical arguements to that claim that WDW is falling have surfaced lately (such as housekeeping,) but a full trash can or missing some C/D tickets from the 1950s don't factor into that equation.
    Last edited by MickeyMania; 12-20-2005 at 01:18 AM.

  11. #116

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    What a fun thread. And the sight of WDW1974 making even the slightest nod to peacemaking just warms the cockles of my curmudgeon heart! (And I'm loving the "insert smilies"!).

    I won't jump into the debate as to which MK style park I love more, as I love 'em both. But I just wanted to say to mike that if a park has a train going around it, and an entryway via Main Street, and a castle in the middle, and a Tomorrowland to the right, and a Fantasyland on the other side of the castle, and a Frontierland to the left that has a sternwheeler going around a playground island, and an Adventureland to the left that has a Jungle Cruise and a Tiki Room, then yes, I think it's fair to compare them apples to apples. They're not the same, and no one said they are. But their similarities make comparisons easy.

  12. #117

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Okay, then it is entirely fair to compare WDW resort to DL resort.

    -Michael
    I think 34 years is more than enough time for any park (and especially WDW) to have reached it's highest level of quality, and I am not talking about just adding attractions every so often but also about the upkeep and maintenance of the facility and park look, which is the problem I see at WDW's Mk right now. Reason why TDL looks like it just opened yesterday after 22 yrs in business.. Do we need to see broken light fixtures in Tomorrowland??? I think not.

  13. #118

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Quote Originally Posted by TDLFAN
    Reason why TDL looks like it just opened yesterday after 22 yrs in business.
    OLC really does take care of the parks, no doubt about it, and no argument from me.

    Still, I wonder. What will life be like in a couple of decades, when TDL has had to split the budget with TDS for twenty years? Then, and only then, will we have something to compare MK to in Japan.
    Kevin Yee
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    Walt Disney World Hidden History - tributes, homages, and ride remnants at WDW
    Your Day at the Magic Kingdom
    Mouse Trap
    Tokyo Disney Made Easy
    101 Things You Never Knew About Disneyland
    Magic Quizdom (The Disneyland Trivia Book)

    “The press [should be] a watchdog. Not an attack dog. Not a lapdog. A watchdog. Now, a watchdog can't be right all the time. He doesn't bark only when he sees or smells something that's dangerous. A good watchdog barks at things that are suspicious.” – Dan Rather

  14. #119

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it To WDW1974 again.
    Fabulous post.

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    Re: Holy cow, WDW's Magic Kingdom is Horrible! (Compared to Disneyland Park)

    Hi Bill,

    I just got back from WDW. I had a wonderful time. I don't want to hurt any feelings, but I do agree with you. Disneyland has many more things that are better than MK with one exception. I thought that the Wishes Holiday edition was better than Remember the Dreams Come True. It hurts me to say that because I love RDCT at Disneyland, but Wishes Holiday edition pretty much topped that.

    Now I hate it when someone says something is better and does not explain why. So, here is my reasons:

    1) Pretty much the same selection of fireworks but there are MORE of them, Happy faces, boxes, stars and double color ones.

    2) Projections are on both castles but the grander of the MK castle makes for a nicer backdrop.

    3) Disneyland has fireworks around the rim of the hub, MK only has a half circle. I think this is almost as good.

    4) Both shows feature pinwheels, but DL has four and MK has six.

    5) Tinker Bell does fly much better in RDTC than in Wishes Holiday. This part is better in Disneyland.

    5) DL has real fire in its show, but MK uses fireworks explosions right from the castle. I evaluated both shows as about equal with that.

    So now Wishes Holiday out-does Remember Dreams Come True. So I say keep the competition going. Now Disneyland has to step up to develop an even more.

    Also, I agree with you that MK just needs more, as do the rest of WDW parks. They need more attractions add rides. Not that what is there is bad. Don't get me wrong. I love WDW. It is just that the things to do are SO spread out.

    Thanks again for all your commentary on WDW. I always enjoy reading it!
    Jiminy Cricket Fan
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