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  1. #31

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    I don't think Dapper Dan was trying to argue that WDW is better than DLR because of its beaches, trails, boating, etc. - he was, in a roundabout way, making the point that this 1:1, A>B binary type comparison is silly. WDW and DLR are two different animals. I would agree - and I think most people here would agree - that for what it is, DLR at the moment offers a higher quality experience than WDW, but they are two very different things and judging them on the same scale misses the two very different cultures/audiences/purposes of the resorts.

    I would not follow from there, as Supermatt70 does, that WDW in its current state is ideal for a particular audience and/or meeting its goals as a resort. I think that WDW falls woefully short in many areas. But I come to that conclusion by comparing WDW to its own potential, purpose, and vision; not by comparing it to DLR. That would be absurd, and I think that was Dapper Dan's primary point.

    (And for the record, I do think there are some categories where WDW - even in its current state - equals or far surpasses DLR. I wrote extensively on that in another thread.)
    I knew if this business was ever to get anywhere, if this business was ever to grow, it could never do it by having to answer to someone unsympathetic to its possibilities, by having to answer to someone with only one thought or interest, namely profits. For my idea of how to make profits has differed greatly from those who generally control businesses such as ours. I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds.
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  2. #32

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Yeah I don't think you can really compare Disneyland to WDW and vice versa. To me, Disneyland is a 2 day resort, maybe 3. At WDW, you'd need at least a week to do everything.

    WDW is more of a resort than Disneyland is (as much as they try to paint it otherwise). The settings are different as are standards. I really enjoyed my time at WDW and I want to take my wife and kids there because like Clinks said, it's NOT Disneyland. There are a couple clones (Clinks missed BTMRR cause it's really a mirror of the one at Disneyland). I'll always be a Disneyland guy but I can't wait to go back to WDW.
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  3. #33

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Chesire View Post
    The beaches, the jogging trails, and all the other things you mention relate back to the same thing: the parks. People don't come to WDW for the hotels, jogging trails, water taxis, and whatnot, they come for the Animal Kingdom, Magic Kingdom, Epcot, and Disney's Hollywood Studios, which in my opinion, have less quality than Disneyland and DCA. You're just talking about the fluff of WDW, which yes, is better than Disneyland.
    Don't assume everyone thinks the same as you..

    There is a reason WDW was called a RESORT. For over a decade there was only one park, that you could finish in 1-2 days. How is it Disney got people to stay for 5-7 days? And continued to do so.. and now some stay upwards of two weeks?

    It's not 'fluff' its called 'taking a VACATION' - and not everyone is about parks, parks, parks, 24x7. That's the mentality that lead to the park commandos.

    Meanwhile others go on vacation and expect to relax, do other things, etc. Heck, I learned to kneeboard in Bay Lake many decades ago.

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  4. #34

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Don't assume everyone thinks the same as you..

    There is a reason WDW was called a RESORT. For over a decade there was only one park, that you could finish in 1-2 days. How is it Disney got people to stay for 5-7 days? And continued to do so.. and now some stay upwards of two weeks?

    It's not 'fluff' its called 'taking a VACATION' - and not everyone is about parks, parks, parks, 24x7. That's the mentality that lead to the park commandos.

    Meanwhile others go on vacation and expect to relax, do other things, etc. Heck, I learned to kneeboard in Bay Lake many decades ago.

    WDW - The golfer who buys the best clothes, the best clubs, and plays on the best courses, but is a mediocre golfer.
    Yes, it is a resort, but I can't think of one person who goes to the resort and doesn't go to one of the parks. The parks are the main attraction of the resort! Sure you don't have to do the parks every single hour of the day, but I just don't see the logic of the people who don't go to the parks at all.
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  5. #35

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Vacations are about different things to different people, and when all is said and done we can analyze this thing to death. The bottom line is that the OP has decided that he no longer wishes to spend his time at WDW. The people at Disney that make the decisions are offering the vacationers many different things. We all need to make up our own minds about how we spend both our vacation dollars, and our vacation time. It's not just one way, it's as many different ways as people can come up with, and be happy about. I respect everyone's choice if it makes them happy, and in return I expect them to respect mine.

  6. #36

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    I guess the thing I'm not getting here is why it seems like a number of the people who prefer WDW are seemingly ambivalent to the fact that the parks fall short at the present time.

  7. #37

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by ztonyg View Post
    I guess the thing I'm not getting here is why it seems like a number of the people who prefer WDW are seemingly ambivalent to the fact that the parks fall short at the present time.
    Do they really fall short though? Compared to their previous incarnations WDW's parks do for sure. But compared to DLR meh it's different not necessarily better, not necessarily worse. To me even with EPCOT in its sorry state, I still place it above DCA based on the architecture, food, and pure awesomeness that it has going for it. Animal Kingdom is an amazing park and Magic Kingdom is beautiful as well. So based on visual asthetics I would probably give WDW the victory. However, as far as upkeep and number of rides/ shows, DLR wins everytime. My point is that perhaps those that say WDW's parks are still better may be seeing it from a different perspective. No ones opinion is more or less valid than mine or yours because it is opinion.
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  8. #38

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco21 View Post
    Do they really fall short though? Compared to their previous incarnations WDW's parks do for sure. But compared to DLR meh it's different not necessarily better, not necessarily worse. To me even with EPCOT in its sorry state, I still place it above DCA based on the architecture, food, and pure awesomeness that it has going for it. Animal Kingdom is an amazing park and Magic Kingdom is beautiful as well. So based on visual asthetics I would probably give WDW the victory. However, as far as upkeep and number of rides/ shows, DLR wins everytime. My point is that perhaps those that say WDW's parks are still better may be seeing it from a different perspective. No ones opinion is more or less valid than mine or yours because it is opinion.
    I agree with what you're saying. I'm a DL guy (as I live in AZ and it's my "home" park) and while I love DLP probably more than any other theme park on the planet (and that includes the MK) I agree that DLP and DLR falls short. DCA seems like a strange blending of themes without any real cohesiveness or over arching theme. Adventureland, New Orleans Square, Frontierland, and Critter Country at DLP kind of merge into one another without much of a transition. Having the Haunted Mansion next to Splash Mountain (literally next door with little space in between) is probably counter to what Walt would've intended.

    However, that being said, from everything I've learnt, DLR is better maintained than WDW from a theme park perspective and the # of E Tickets per park is higher. DLP has (Indiana Jones, Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain, Matterhorn, Star Tours, and Space Mountain) and DCA has (Tower of Terror, Soarin', Radiator Springs Racers, California Screamin', Grizzly River Run, and Toy Story Midway Mania).

    DLP's newest E Ticket attraction (and I will not count the Star Tours re-working) was Indiana Jones (1995) versus MK's newest being Splash Mountain (1992) so really the two parks are not that dis-similar in that regard.

    The biggest complaint about WDW though is that only one park: MK, is truly an all day venture whereas EPCOT has less to do than before and DAK and DHS are really 1/2 day parks.

  9. #39

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    ^^Disagree. If you only go to the studios and Animal Kingdom for rides, as opposed to enjoying the exhibits, shows and other outdoor entertainment, then yes, you just cut your experiences there to only half a day. You want to talk about a Disney park that is truly half day? Then head to Hong Kong Disneyland.. and even that little park seems to be catching up with the new additions this year.

    Maybe I misunderstood this topic. I thought we were comparing the theme parks, NOT the properties. While it is understood that Disney World is a city per se.. with beaches, golfing, hotels, etc, I am yet to experience those areas of Disney World because we don't go there to do that. We like the parks. If I wanted to go to the beach of play golf, then i would do that somewhere else outside Disney. My interest lies in the unique stuff you can do at at a Disney resort and not what you can do there AND everywhere else. C'mon, really, is there anyone here who has done "everything" Disney World offers?

    So with that said, YES, it's fair to compare the Disney parks as equal but as someone said before, they are not. Disney wants to market their theme parks as "equal experiences" and basically they do meet that criteria. But when you dissect it, NO they are very different in the levels of quality and equality. The problem with the Magic Kingdom is this: the park is antiquated. The New fantasyland brings a much needed dose of "new Disney theme" to that park, but it's a bit too little and too late. This type of elegant and more elaborate theme has already been done at DLP, and the Magic Kingdom is merely catching up. Also, in regards to mood and atmospheres, the Magic Kingdom will never compare to DL's effortless charm. If you truly want to compare more indepth, then compare more important things like, maintenance, staffing levels, CM training and procedures, attractions and show qualities.. and the amount of things to do while in the park, and you will see that in many of those areas, the Magic Kingdom is deficient when compared to Disneyland, Tokyo Disneyland and Disneyland Paris. And while Hong Kong Disneyland is a small park short in rides, it does have more charm and better executed themes when compared to the Magic Kingdom. But that's only my opinion.

    So yes, Disney World has lovely beaches, nice hotels (maybe too many of them), and other areas not found at the other Disney resorts... but the Disney World parks themselves are not up to speed when compared to their sister parks world wide. Take the Tokyo Disney Resort example.. as that resort is located in the most un-glamorous area of Tokyo near warehouses and other unsightly buildings, yet, the resort offers what I believe to be the finest entertainment, atmospheres, and best managed/operated Disney parks I have ever visited and i am itching to go back again. The Magic Kingdom? Not so much.

    A lot of works still needs to be done to make the Magic Kingdom as equal in quality to it's sister parks in CA, Tokyo and Paris, and in some ways, Hong Kong. The new Fantasyland is a great way to start a new trend towards quality at the Magic Kingdom, but wasting all the precious resources into experiences that only appeal to the kids' demographics will not cut it.

  10. #40

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Chesire View Post
    Yes, it is a resort, but I can't think of one person who goes to the resort and doesn't go to one of the parks. The parks are the main attraction of the resort! Sure you don't have to do the parks every single hour of the day, but I just don't see the logic of the people who don't go to the parks at all.
    they exist as well... but what you describe as 'fluff' is what causes many people to stay at the resort longer than they chose to visit the parks.. and know that UP FRONT. People enjoy the spa, they visit the different resorts, they soak up the sun, they shop, they exercise, they ride horses, they go boating, etc.

    Disney fans tend to get this warped sense of reality that all vacations must mean going to a theme park! Yet reality is they represent just a tiny fraction of how people actually vacation. And that doesn't change entirely when people step on property.
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  11. #41

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotphks View Post
    So with that said, YES, it's fair to compare the Disney parks as equal but as someone said before, they are not. Disney wants to market their theme parks as "equal experiences" and basically they do meet that criteria. But when you dissect it, NO they are very different in the levels of quality and equality. The problem with the Magic Kingdom is this: the park is antiquated. The New fantasyland brings a much needed dose of "new Disney theme" to that park, but it's a bit too little and too late. This type of elegant and more elaborate theme has already been done at DLP, and the Magic Kingdom is merely catching up. Also, in regards to mood and atmospheres, the Magic Kingdom will never compare to DL's effortless charm. If you truly want to compare more indepth, then compare more important things like, maintenance, staffing levels, CM training and procedures, attractions and show qualities.. and the amount of things to do while in the park, and you will see that in many of those areas, the Magic Kingdom is deficient when compared to Disneyland, Tokyo Disneyland and Disneyland Paris. And while Hong Kong Disneyland is a small park short in rides, it does have more charm and better executed themes when compared to the Magic Kingdom. But that's only my opinion.
    I agree with most of this; however, the problem you're referring to is not that MK is "antiquated" - it's that it's poorly executed. You listed TDL as being superior to MK and in nearly all respects I would agree with that, but TDL is still rocking the Fantasyland and Tomorrowland theming/aesthetics that MK opened with in 1971! What sets TDL apart is the quality of the CMs, CM training, maintenance standards, staffing levels, and caring about the details and getting them right. As a "WDW guy" I'll wholeheartedly admit that WDW falls woefully short in these areas and it frustrates/saddens me to no end.

    ---------- Post added 09-12-2012 at 10:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ztonyg View Post
    I agree with what you're saying. I'm a DL guy (as I live in AZ and it's my "home" park) and while I love DLP probably more than any other theme park on the planet (and that includes the MK) I agree that DLP and DLR falls short...

    DLP has (Indiana Jones, Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain, Matterhorn, Star Tours, and Space Mountain) and DCA has (Tower of Terror, Soarin', Radiator Springs Racers, California Screamin', Grizzly River Run, and Toy Story Midway Mania).

    DLP's newest E Ticket attraction (and I will not count the Star Tours re-working) was Indiana Jones (1995) versus MK's newest being Splash Mountain (1992) so really the two parks are not that dis-similar in that regard.
    Just for future reference, it appears you're using DLP to refer to "Disneyland Park." On MiceChat, people generally use DLP to refer to Disneyland Paris and just DL to refer to Disneyland (Park).
    I knew if this business was ever to get anywhere, if this business was ever to grow, it could never do it by having to answer to someone unsympathetic to its possibilities, by having to answer to someone with only one thought or interest, namely profits. For my idea of how to make profits has differed greatly from those who generally control businesses such as ours. I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds.
    -Walt Disney



  12. #42

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    My point is that the Disneyland resort and Walt Disney World resort have fundamentally different purposes. At Disneyland, the parks are everything. There is no reason to go there other to visit the parks. Fortunately they have a really great park to go to and another one that I hear is getting better. While the parks are the primary focus of Walt Disney World and are the main reason most people go there, (mostly because the marketing is awful) there are people that vacation in Walt Disney World to enjoy the other things. If you want to argue that Disneyland is better than the Magic Kingdom, that's fair. To say that The Disneyland resort is better than The Walt Disney World resort always comes with the caveat of, only in regards to the parks. This is like saying a regular car is just as good as a luxury car if you don't count the blue tooth comparability, wood panels, leather interiors and seat warmers. If you need to take things away from Walt Disney World to prove how Disneyland is better, that just means that Disneyland is not better.

    Can you find better golf courses elsewhere? Probably. Are there better beaches? Definitely. Are there places that offer all these things with free transportation between them? No. The beauty and purpose of Walt Disney World is that all these diverse recreational activities (including theme parks) are in one place. The golf player can take his family to Walt Disney World and let the kids go to the parks while he plays a round of golf and catch up with him later in the evening. There is nowhere else where that sort of thing is so easy because there is nowhere else designed to have all those things together.

    There are people that go to Walt Disney World without visiting the parks. They probably aren't a huge percentage and they're not a target demographic but the fact that they can get an enjoyable vacation out of the activities they choose is proof that Walt Disney World isn't just 4 parks. There's actually a community of folks who go to Fort Wilderness during the holiday season just to decorate and see how other people have decorated their campsites.

    This was not some idea Eisner had when he was trying to squeeze every penny out ot the resort. This wasn't even something the Imagineers threw together after Walt's death to justify the massive amount of land they bought. This was the plan from the very beginning. Even in the days of Walt's EPCOT film he talks about the tourist area with a theme park and "...a variety of recreation activities." Phase 1 was the magnet that was to draw people to Walt Disney World and have to travel through EPCOT to get to and Walt didn't just want theme park visitors, he wanted campers, fishers, joggers, tennis players, shoppers, everybody to see this thing he built.

    When Walt Disney World opened it was billed as The Vacation Kingdom of the World not just because it's a catchy slogan but because the place was specifically designed to offer almost every common activity that people do on vacation in one place. You can go sailing one day, play golf the next, then ride Mission: SPACE until you throw up or catch a Cirque du Soliel performance. Vacationers are free to sample a little bit of everything or just focus on the one or few activities they really like. Just because some people only go for the parks doesn't diminish any of these other things. They are still there and many people still enjoy them.

    If such a diverse offering isn't your thing, maybe Disneyland is the better fit for you. It does what it does very well. Walt Disney World does a lot more. It may not do them perfectly, but there is enormous potential for it to offer that complete escape and some of us aren't quite willing to give up on it just yet. Walt Disney World was once better than it is now. It's gotten a little lost with all its many divisions fighting with one another with no clear vision for what the property as a whole should be but I've always believed that if something can happen once it can happen again. The resort can be as great as it once was, maybe even better.

    There's also the sad fact that the original poster is a Magic Kingdom fan so he has the luxury of abandoning the park when things get rough, since there are many other versions of it to pick from. I happen to be an EPCOT Center fan, so there's nowhere else for me to go. I'm stuck here doing what little my rantings actually can to try to make things better. Does that make me a foamer?
    It bothers me when people selectively edit quotes to support whatever point they are trying to prove.

  13. #43

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Dan View Post
    If such a diverse offering isn't your thing, maybe Disneyland is the better fit for you. It does what it does very well. Walt Disney World does a lot more. It may not do them perfectly, but there is enormous potential for it to offer that complete escape and some of us aren't quite willing to give up on it just yet. Walt Disney World was once better than it is now. It's gotten a little lost with all its many divisions fighting with one another with no clear vision for what the property as a whole should be but I've always believed that if something can happen once it can happen again. The resort can be as great as it once was, maybe even better.
    Excellent, excellent post, Dapper Dan. I agree wholeheartedly.
    I knew if this business was ever to get anywhere, if this business was ever to grow, it could never do it by having to answer to someone unsympathetic to its possibilities, by having to answer to someone with only one thought or interest, namely profits. For my idea of how to make profits has differed greatly from those who generally control businesses such as ours. I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds.
    -Walt Disney



  14. #44

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    Isn't the point of this post is NOT to compare the resorts, but to acknowledge that being a "foamer" is a complete waste of time? Just go to the parks that gives the best experience as Disney intended. To me, the original Disneyland would be the pinnacle. WDW is nice, but there are too many negatives in terms of the theme parks (rides, upkeep, layout, transportation, and weather). The hotel resorts are worth visiting, but that's not the central reason for visiting WDW.

    It's the theme parks.

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    Re: An Open Letter to Foamers Like Me

    On the last 5 day trip that my wife and 21 year old daughter took to WDW, I visited the parks daily, but my wife and daughter spent just 4 hours at Epcot. The rest of the time was spent at the pool (at Wilderness Lodge), DTD and the Boardwalk, walking and jogging throughout Ft Wilderness, and visiting the other hotels.....so yes, there are those that don't focus on WDW parks when visiting WDW. Obviously not the majority, but still, they're out there.
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