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  1. #16

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Celebration and Golden Oak are both master planned "over priced" real estate developments. Don't perceive it as anything other than the development of existing property in the WDW area. Disney has every right to develop its lands as they are not in the conservation business.

    I must add that property development is full of risks. I really don't think Disney made much money with Celebration and Golden Oak. They tried to plus up their housing with styles and features that drive up the cost. Sure, the properties are sold at top dollar, but there aren't enough units to make big profits.

    I not sure what "potential" there is if they don't do an occasional housing development. What else can they do? Another shopping center like "Flamingo Crossings"? Another DVC timeshare development? Another hotel resort? Another theme park? I think Disney maxed out.

    Disney needs to focus on plussing their existing theme parks and investing in their transportation system. That's what holding up their potential.
    Last edited by StevenW; 02-06-2013 at 01:32 PM.

  2. #17

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by jcruise86 View Post
    Swampymarsh/Lazyboy:

    Do you really equate a college degree with skills?
    (asks Jcruise86, J.D., M.F.A., M.A., B.A.)

    Again regarding “unskilled labor”: experience at any job will require skills, even if they are new and/or quickly attained. The mindset of thinking of any (sometimes experienced) full-time workers as "unskilled" may have helped Eisner/Wells/Iger/Rasulo/Staggs to lead Disney to the forefront of America's rapidly metastasizing income inequality.

    Interestingly, nations' income inequality is correlated with their murder rates.

    But the upside is this benefits our booming gate industry and increases the # of private security guard jobs.


    I did not use a college degree as the definition, but I stand by what I stated. It has nothing to do with what you're getting angry about. A "skill" has a definition. A welder engages in skilled labor. It's why people apprentice or get outside training, because it cannot be quickly and easily taught on the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by swampymarsh View Post
    I don't think it's exaclty that. I do think they see the vast land as an asset that doesn't produce income and want it to produce something.
    This is part of the issue with Walt Disney World's current business model where every small component must make money versus the old model of looking at the whole. The land used to be an asset which contributed to the whole experience, now it is a liability that should be developed or sold.

  3. #18

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    I not sure what "potential" there is if they don't do an occasional housing development. What else can they do? Another shopping center like "Flamingo Crossings"? Another DVC timeshare development? Another hotel resort? Another theme park? I think Disney maxed out.
    They could make an attempt to tie everything together; try to give the resort a distinct singular identity instead of everything being its own island in the swamp. A better transportation network and putting an end to haphazardly developing and selling off land to third parties would go a long way toward helping that. They don't need another shopping district, hotel, dvc, or theme park they need to stop drawing distinctions between those things and realize they are a single resort. Look at Phase One, the Magic Kingdom resort area. Imagine if they had put that much thought into every development.
    It bothers me when people selectively edit quotes to support whatever point they are trying to prove.

  4. #19

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    The more land that gets sold the more of an ironic joke WDW becomes. What was supposed to be the super efficient city of tomorrow with carefully planned out facilities and transportation system has turned into a mishmash of theme-parks, malls and sparse housing development thrown all the place. A shame really.

  5. #20

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Dan View Post
    They could make an attempt to tie everything together; try to give the resort a distinct singular identity instead of everything being its own island in the swamp. A better transportation network and putting an end to haphazardly developing and selling off land to third parties would go a long way toward helping that. They don't need another shopping district, hotel, dvc, or theme park they need to stop drawing distinctions between those things and realize they are a single resort. Look at Phase One, the Magic Kingdom resort area. Imagine if they had put that much thought into every development.
    It is a swamp. It is tied together. In fact, the residences are part of Walt's original plan of EPCOT. I think of DVC as the modern approach where people live on-site as part time owners.

    They do need to improve their transportation system. I still don't know what you mean by potential unless they do develop every single inch of the WDW Property so it is tied together.

    There is nothing wrong with third party ownership. Who knows exactly what belongs to who. It doesn't seem to matter. Disney has controlled its design from the beginning. Not all hotels are owned by Disney. The land is also in the jurisdiction of a Disney managed local government.

    I'm not sure what potential is untapped. It seems like Disney milked it dry.
    Last edited by StevenW; 02-06-2013 at 03:41 PM.

  6. #21

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    It is a swamp. It is tied together. In fact, the residences are part of Walt's original plan of EPCOT.
    That is an incredibly shallow reading of EPCOT.

  7. #22

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    If every working professional is commuting from DVC properties to work in a theme park or in Disney administration capacities, then WDW is truly the Epcot Disney pitched us through his TV show. Somehow, I think we've deviated from Walt's vision.
    ~ Erik








  8. #23

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    To me personally... Golden Oak is just more of the future of WDW mortgaged for short term profits.
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  9. #24

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    That is an incredibly shallow reading of EPCOT.
    I'm not describing EPCOT. I'm only referring to one feature of the original EPCOT plans.

  10. #25

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by KingEric View Post
    To me personally... Golden Oak is just more of the future of WDW mortgaged for short term profits.
    WDW has plenty of undeveloped land that probably won't even be developed in the future. If you didn't know where these places were, would you have noticed?

  11. #26

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    WDW has plenty of undeveloped land that probably won't even be developed in the future. If you didn't know where these places were, would you have noticed?
    Plenty? Not so much. There's room for maybe one more theme park and a few more resort hotels. WDW is rapidly approaching build-out.
    -Bill

  12. #27

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    It is a swamp. It is tied together. In fact, the residences are part of Walt's original plan of EPCOT. I think of DVC as the modern approach where people live on-site as part time owners.

    They do need to improve their transportation system. I still don't know what you mean by potential unless they do develop every single inch of the WDW Property so it is tied together.

    There is nothing wrong with third party ownership. Who knows exactly what belongs to who. It doesn't seem to matter. Disney has controlled its design from the beginning. Not all hotels are owned by Disney. The land is also in the jurisdiction of a Disney managed local government.

    I'm not sure what potential is untapped. It seems like Disney milked it dry.
    So Golden Oak is like EPCOT in the sense that they both have houses? That is a tenuous association at best, and a terrible justification. EPCOT didn't have houses for the sake of having houses. It was an attempt to completely rethink the way neighborhoods are developed to foster a stronger sense of community and emphasize the pedestrian over the automobile. Golden Oak is the exact opposite of that.

    The Golden Oak development and other haphazardly placed developments harm the overall unity of the resort. One which was once very palpable and is in critical condition today. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't at least make an effort. Transportation can go a long way toward bringing some of that back, but how are they going to improve transportation when they plop down developments wherever? Do these areas not get connected or does the transportation network become vastly more complex to accommodate them?

    Will adding transportation upgrades to properties developed and run by third parties effect their leases? A property on a monorail route has got to be worth a lot more than one that's not and can they refuse to connected to the transportation system if they don't want to pay the upgraded rate? Or will Disney claim eminent domain and either force them to take on the project or force the resisting company out of the property all together?

    Walt Disney World is not International Drive. It not a bunch of companies on a large chunk of real estate each competing for your tourism dollars with the brightest lights and biggest displays and upside-down buildings. It is run by one company which has decided to compete with itself for your tourism dollars instead of creating a massive singular statement that nobody can compete with, and now they are inviting other companies to come in and compete with them because it will make the profits for this quarter bigger. Who cares how it effects profits in five years when the construction on whatever hunk of land this particular executive sold off is complete. That exec will be long gone by then, and their resume looks great with all the new profits they brought to Disney. I feel sorry for the poor clod who has to make up the lost money for the competition that's now on property. Who's dumb idea was that anyway? Oh well, if it works, it works, right? He can do the same thing and his resume will probably look great too. Do this enough times and Walt Disney World can be a collection of islands in a new kind of swamp and it's the "second rate Las Vegas" problem all over again.
    It bothers me when people selectively edit quotes to support whatever point they are trying to prove.

  13. #28

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Dan View Post
    So Golden Oak is like EPCOT in the sense that they both have houses? That is a tenuous association at best, and a terrible justification.
    Oh, did I say that? I said residences were never out of consideration in ANY Disney developments as that was imagined in the past as part of EPCOT.

    It was an attempt to completely rethink the way neighborhoods are developed to foster a stronger sense of community and emphasize the pedestrian over the automobile. Golden Oak is the exact opposite of that.
    No. Golden Oak isn't an opposite of anything. EPCOT is EPCOT. Golden Oak has its own objectives, or maybe none at at.

  14. #29

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    Quote Originally Posted by swampymarsh View Post
    You can find it insulting all you want. The fact of the matter is it doesn't require a college degree to run a cash register or operate a palletjack.
    You're right, those jobs require personal responsibly, ethics and skill. Things that a vaunted college degree doesn't have anything to do with.

  15. #30

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    Re: Does Golden Oak reflect Disney execs' increasing discomfort with the middle-clas

    I created a Google map last year showing the current development of WDW

    Walt Disney World Development - Google Maps

    The image and map are far from perfect, but it gives you an idea of just how developed WDW currently is.

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