Last time an attraction was update at WDW .... it's a stale world after all!

[KingEric]

If you are wondering about how stale Walt Disney World is you simply have to look at when the last update or change to that attraction was, or if something was closed without a replacement.

I have highlighted in RED all the times a change was made, and people felt it was for the WORST.

Magic Kingdom

Main Street USA Attractions:

• Main Street Cinema - CLOSED with no replacement
• Penny Arcade - CLOSED with no replacement
• Swan Boats - CLOSED with no replacement
• The Walt Disney Story - CLOSED with no replacement

Tomorrowland Attractions:

• Astro Orbitor - last ride change 1994 - 19 years
• Buzz Light Year - Opened 1998 - 15 years
• Space Mountain - Opened 1975 / last change 2009 - 4 years
• Monsters Inc Laugh Floor - Opened 2007 - 6 years
• Stitches Great Escape - Opened 2004 - 9 years
• Tomorrowland Speed Way - Opened 1973 / last change 1999 - 14 years
• People Mover - Opened 1975 / last change 1994 - 19 years
• Carousel of Progress - Opened 1975 / last change 1993 - 20 years
• Skyway - CLOSED with no replacement

Fantasyland Attractions:

• Barnstormer - opened 1996 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Dumbo - opened 1971 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Little Mermaid - opened 2012 - 0 years
• It's a Small World - opened 1971 / last change 2005 - 8 years
• Mad Tea Party - opened 1971 / last change 1992 - 21 years
• Winnie the Pooh - opened 1999 - 14 years
• Mickey's Philharmagic - opened 2003 - 10 years
• Peter Pan's flight - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Carousel - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Snow Whites Scary Adventure - CLOSED with no replacement
• Skyway - CLOSED with no replacement

Liberty Square Attractions:

• Haunted Mansion - opened 1971 / last change 2007 - 6 years
• Hall of Presidents - opened 1971 / last change 2009 - 4 years
• Admiral Joel Fowerl - CLOSED with no replacement
• Mike Fink Keel Boats - CLOSED with no replacement

Frontierland Attractions:

• Big Thunder Mountain - opened 1988 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Splash Mountain - opened 1992 - 21 years
• Country Bear Jamboree - opened 1971 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Tom Sawyer Island - opened 1973 - 40 years
• Davy Crocket Explorer Canoes - CLOSED with no replacement

Adventureland Attractions:

• Jungle Cruise - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Pirates of the Caribbean - opened 1973 / last change 2006 - 7 years
• Swiss Family Robinson Tree House - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Magic Carpets of Aladdin - opened 2001 - 12 years
• Enchanted Tiki Room - opened 1971/ last change 2011 - 2 years

Epcot
Future World Attractions:

• Spaceship Earth - opened 1981 / last change 2007 - 6 years
• Universe of Energy - opened 1982 / last change 1996 - 17 years
• Mission Space - opened 2003 - 10 years
• Test Track - opened 1999 / last change 12 years - 0 years
• Seas with Nemo - opened 2007 - 6 years
• Turtle Talk with Crush - opened 2004 - 9 years
• Living with the Land - opened 1982 / last change 2006 - 7 years
• Soarin' - opened 2005 - 7 years
• Circle of Life - opened 1995 - 18 years
• Food Rocks - CLOSED with no replacement
• Journey into your immagination - opened 1982 / last change 2002 - 11 years
• Captain EO - opened 1986/2010 - 3 years
• Wonders of Life - CLOSED with no replacement

World Showcase Attractions:

• Gran Fiesta Tour - opened 1982 / last change 2007 - 6 years
• Malestrom - opened 1988 - 25 years
• Reflections of China - opened 2003 - 10 years
• American Adventure - opened 1982 / last change 1993 - 20 years
• Impressions De France - opened 1982 - 31 years
• O'Canada - opened 1982 / last change 2007 - 6 years

Disney Hollywood Studios Attractions:

• Rock N' Roller coaster - opened 1999 - 14 years
• Tower of Terror - opened 1994 / last change 2003 - 10 years
• Great Movie Ride - opened 1989 - 24 years
• American Idol - opened 2009 - 4 years
• ABC Sound Stage - CLOSED with no replacement
• Star tours - opened 1989 / last change 2011 - 2 years
• Indiana Jones Epic Stunt - opened 1989 - 24 years
• Backlot tour - opened 1989 /last change 2008 - 5 years
• Muppet vision 3D - opened 1991 - 22 years
• Honey I Shrunk the Kids Playset - opened 1990 - 23 years
• Magic of Disney Animation - opened 2004 - 9 years
• One Man's Dream - opened 2001 - 12 years
• Legend of Jack Sparrow - opened 2012 - 0 years
• Playhouse Disney - opened in 2011 - 2 years
• Voyage of the Little Mermaid - opened 1992 - 21 years
• Lights Action Motors - opened 2005 - 9 years
• Beauty and the Beast LIVE - opened 1991 - 22 years
• Hunch Back of Notre Dame - CLOSED no replacement
• Sections of the Backlot tour - CLOSED no replacement

Disney's Animal Kingdom Attractions:

• It's Tough to Be a bug - opened 1998 - 15 years
• Festival of the lion king - opened 1998 - 15 years
• Pocahontas and her forest friends - CLOSED no replacement
• Animal Kingdom Discovery Tour - Closed no replacement
• Kiliminjaros Safar - opened 1998 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Kali River Rapids - opened 1999 - 14 years
• Everest - opened 2006 (last time Yeti was in A-mode 2009) - 7 years
• Finding Nemo the Musical - opened 2007 - 6 years
• Dinosaur - opened 1998 - 15 years
• Primeval whirl - opened 2002 - 11 years
• Triceratops spin - opened 2001 - 12 years

Thoughts? Commentary?

Adding this text to help frame the context better:

I am sorry. I think in my late night posting I might have positioned this incorrectly.

I wanted to first show how long attractions have been around with or without any update.

Correct, that not all attractions need an update (ie Aladdins Magic Carpets, but with that specific example, you can notice how long Adventureland has been a bottleneck since it's quick construction).

Whenever you build something it does have a shelf life. If we were to compare WDW to DL attraction by attraction with dates constructed and dates that some improvements were made you would notice that DL's attractions are more frequently refreshed.

The fact that Stitches Great Escape has been torturing audiences for as long as it has, is simply disgusting to me.

Sure ABC sound stage is technically better closed, but how long must we suffer closed and vacant show buildings.

If we are talking about the WORLDS BEST THEME PARKS, that charge the prices of the world's best and most expensive, then I expect the best.

I expect it to be maintained.

[Disneytwins]

A lot of these don't even need a replacement. Skyway? How could you replace that? Admiral Joe Fowler doesn't need a replacement.

[Micoofy Duck]

Wow... looks like alot of hard work for what... to say WDW is stale.

Not everything needs a replacement. And you're starting to really nitpick with Hollywood Studios Hunchback of Notre Dame stage show. That show didn't even need a replacement.

My thoughts and comments. You're preaching to the same group of people who already see your point and/or agree with you. My opinion is this thread is put out there to make change. I'm fine with the attempt. My true feelings, change isn't going to happen because of this thread. WDW is headed for change with new additions you failed to mention, whether you like them or not.

The "updates" are happening to the parks, you want them to happen to individual attractions. The updates are there, just not exactly what you want and how you think they should be focused on. I am enjoying and welcoming the new mixed with the classic. I'd rather have new additions, lands and electronic updates versus "updating" the Magic Carpets of Aladdin. Really, the magic carpets of aladdin. I laughed at that one being pointed out.

[Pizzapants]

Your list has a few mishaps. No replacement for Food Rocks? Soarin' would beg to differ. The Peoplemover got slightly upgraded with new lights and spiels only a few years ago. Snow White is being replaced by a meet and greet. I don't like it, but it does have a replacement. Once could also argue the Mine Coaster is replacing Snow White. The American Adventure has had the video updated more recently than 20 years ago, and same with the Great Movie Ride. I would also argue that anything changed or upgraded in the last 10 years is okay with me and shows effort. As stated above, some things don't need to be replaced. Skyway is gone? Good Riddance. Same with the canoes.

[goofy donald]

If you are wondering about how stale Walt Disney World is you simply have to look at when the last update or change to that attraction was, or if something was closed without a replacement.

I have highlighted in RED all the times a change was made, and people felt it was for the WORST.

Yeah I'm sorry Eric, usually i agree with your posts however I think this was a bit over the top. I really don't agree with some of the points here that you said were 'for the worse'.

Magic Kingdom

Main Street USA Attractions:

• Main Street Cinema - CLOSED with no replacement
• Penny Arcade - CLOSED with no replacement
• Swan Boats - CLOSED with no replacement
• The Walt Disney Story - CLOSED with no replacement

Tomorrowland Attractions:

• Astro Orbitor - last ride change 1994 - 19 years
• Buzz Light Year - Opened 1998 - 15 years
• Space Mountain - Opened 1975 / last change 2009 - 4 years
• Monsters Inc Laugh Floor - Opened 2007 - 6 years
• Stitches Great Escape - Opened 2004 - 9 years
• Tomorrowland Speed Way - Opened 1973 / last change 1999 - 14 years
• People Mover - Opened 1975 / last change 1994 - 19 years
• Carousel of Progress - Opened 1975 / last change 1993 - 20 years
• Skyway - CLOSED with no replacement

Fantasyland Attractions:

• Barnstormer - opened 1996 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Dumbo - opened 1971 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Little Mermaid - opened 2012 - 0 years
• It's a Small World - opened 1971 / last change 2005 - 8 years
• Mad Tea Party - opened 1971 / last change 1992 - 21 years
• Winnie the Pooh - opened 1999 - 14 years
• Mickey's Philharmagic - opened 2003 - 10 years
• Peter Pan's flight - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Carousel - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Snow Whites Scary Adventure - CLOSED with no replacement
• Skyway - CLOSED with no replacement

Liberty Square Attractions:

• Haunted Mansion - opened 1971 / last change 2007 - 6 years
• Hall of Presidents - opened 1971 / last change 2009 - 4 years
• Admiral Joel Fowerl - CLOSED with no replacement
• Mike Fink Keel Boats - CLOSED with no replacement

Frontierland Attractions:

• Big Thunder Mountain - opened 1988 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Splash Mountain - opened 1992 - 21 years
• Country Bear Jamboree - opened 1971 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Tom Sawyer Island - opened 1973 - 40 years
• Davy Crocket Explorer Canoes - CLOSED with no replacement

Adventureland Attractions:

• Jungle Cruise - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Pirates of the Caribbean - opened 1973 / last change 2006 - 7 years
• Swiss Family Robinson Tree House - opened 1971 - 42 years
• Magic Carpets of Aladdin - opened 2001 - 12 years
• Enchanted Tiki Room - opened 1971/ last change 2011 - 2 years

in main street yes it sucks we lost those attractions, yet i would say one man's dream at DHS is a clear replacement for the walt disney story. then the two skyway stations being closed in my opinion is hardly a negative, i think the view around magic kingdom has improved without them and one of the stations is being replaced with the new fantasyland bathrooms / Rapunzel / stroller parking, both desperate upgrades needed in the land. moving to the frontier, the joel fowler didn't need a replacement, the current riverboat is rarely capacity at peak times right now and the keel boats were deemed unsafe, what else would you have in their place? as for the canoes they were never that great of an attraction to begin with, I can paddle my own canoe whenever i want at my cottage and not have to tow around a bunch of tubby people, who wants to power their own attraction? and since when did big thunder mountain ever receive a downgrade?

Epcot
Future World Attractions:

• Spaceship Earth - opened 1981 / last change 2007 - 6 years
• Universe of Energy - opened 1982 / last change 1996 - 17 years
• Mission Space - opened 2003 - 10 years
• Test Track - opened 1999 / last change 12 years - 0 years
• Seas with Nemo - opened 2007 - 6 years
• Turtle Talk with Crush - opened 2004 - 9 years
• Living with the Land - opened 1982 / last change 2006 - 7 years
• Soarin' - opened 2005 - 7 years
• Circle of Life - opened 1995 - 18 years
• Food Rocks - CLOSED with no replacement
• Journey into your immagination - opened 1982 / last change 2002 - 11 years
• Captain EO - opened 1986/2010 - 3 years
• Wonders of Life - CLOSED with no replacement

World Showcase Attractions:

• Gran Fiesta Tour - opened 1982 / last change 2007 - 6 years
• Malestrom - opened 1988 - 25 years
• Reflections of China - opened 2003 - 10 years
• American Adventure - opened 1982 / last change 1993 - 20 years
• Impressions De France - opened 1982 - 31 years
• O'Canada - opened 1982 / last change 2007 - 6 years

food rocks was replaced by the line for soarin, yes the AA's are still there behind the wall, however that doesn't mean theres enough room for a show to still take place in the area. i think the addition to the gran fiesta tour was pretty fun and nice actually and as a canadian I would say that although i am no fan of martin short, i think the film was undeniably a huge upgrade on the crap that was there before. at least in informs Americans to a degree on who canadians really are unlike what was there before.

Disney Hollywood Studios Attractions:

• Rock N' Roller coaster - opened 1999 - 14 years
• Tower of Terror - opened 1994 / last change 2003 - 10 years
• Great Movie Ride - opened 1989 - 24 years
• American Idol - opened 2009 - 4 years
• ABC Sound Stage - CLOSED with no replacement
• Star tours - opened 1989 / last change 2011 - 2 years
• Indiana Jones Epic Stunt - opened 1989 - 24 years
• Backlot tour - opened 1989 /last change 2008 - 5 years
• Muppet vision 3D - opened 1991 - 22 years
• Honey I Shrunk the Kids Playset - opened 1990 - 23 years
• Magic of Disney Animation - opened 2004 - 9 years
• One Man's Dream - opened 2001 - 12 years
• Legend of Jack Sparrow - opened 2012 - 0 years
• Playhouse Disney - opened in 2011 - 2 years
• Voyage of the Little Mermaid - opened 1992 - 21 years
• Lights Action Motors - opened 2005 - 9 years
• Beauty and the Beast LIVE - opened 1991 - 22 years
• Hunch Back of Notre Dame - CLOSED no replacement
• Sections of the Backlot tour - CLOSED no replacement

I think that the ABC soundstage is actually better off closed then having Sounds Dangerous still going on but i agree there should still be a replacement. as for the legend of jack sparrow, you would be crazy not to think that thats not an upgrade over that awful narnia walkthrough that was there before and come on you cant put two red marks for the same attraction (Backlot tour) thats just not even fair.

Disney's Animal Kingdom Attractions:

• It's Tough to Be a bug - opened 1998 - 15 years
• Festival of the lion king - opened 1998 - 15 years
• Pocahontas and her forest friends - CLOSED no replacement
• Animal Kingdom Discovery Tour - Closed no replacement
• Kiliminjaros Safar - opened 1998 / last change 2012 - 0 years
• Kali River Rapids - opened 1999 - 14 years
• Everest - opened 2006 (last time Yeti was in A-mode 2009) - 7 years
• Finding Nemo the Musical - opened 2007 - 6 years
• Dinosaur - opened 1998 - 15 years
• Primeval whirl - opened 2002 - 11 years
• Triceratops spin - opened 2001 - 12 years

Pocahontas closed due to lack of guest interest, a park can only have so many shows before people stop going to one. how is adding zebras to the safari a downgrade?

[KingEric]

I am sorry. I think in my late night posting I might have positioned this incorrectly.

I wanted to first show how long attractions have been around with or without any update.

Correct, that not all attractions need an update (ie Aladdins Magic Carpets, but with that specific example, you can notice how long Adventureland has been a bottleneck since it's quick construction).

Whenever you build something it does have a shelf life. If we were to compare WDW to DL attraction by attraction with dates constructed and dates that some improvements were made you would notice that DL's attractions are more frequently refreshed.

The fact that Stitches Great Escape has been torturing audiences for as long as it has, is simply disgusting to me.

Sure ABC sound stage is technically better closed, but how long must we suffer closed and vacant show buildings.

If we are talking about the WORLDS BEST THEME PARKS, that charge the prices of the world's best and most expensive, then I expect the best.

I expect it to be maintained.

[maddogjoe]

Ya know Eric, considering how much you bash WDW I'm amazed you bother going any more. You don't like what it has become, you don't like how it's maintained, you don't like the addition they have done , and you expect, nay almost demand they make things the way you believe they should.

Times change. This isn't "Walt's" park/parks any more. It's hard to say that but the man hasn't been involved in the design for many years. While some people believe they should carry on in the same way, nobody can. Walt messed with HIS money, today's "LEADERS" don't. So the committees will decide which way the parks will grow.... or not grow.

Do you truly believe that if Walt was still running things some of the things we have seen happen, and not enjoyed would have changed? The world changed since then and so would the way the parks are presented. The thread about "Figment" and bringing back the original version.... forget it, it will NEVER HAPPEN, why? Because it was out dated and the new generation was looking for something else. For years and years the fastest ride at WDW was Space Mountain. Then they built Six Flags, and Universal and their primary draw were fast rides, roller coasters, the bigger, faster the better. So we get the Yeti, the dinsuar rough ride, and fast track. Where they "Disney" type rides? nope, but it's what that generation wanted.

Next we see Harry's world, and so they turn to Avatar. Its is all about putting up what will draw the money to your park. At this point WDW still draws a LOT of money to it's park and the investors are happy. Change is always going to come. Either you learn to live with it or you move on. Complaining about it isn't going to help, especially complaining on these message boards.

I'm sure Disney knows they have some light bulbs out, that some paint is peeling here of there, or that people are slobs and have stained the seats in CoP. I'm sure they took that into consideration when voting for the cut backs so that the investors can collect their money, but that is business. They do it for the money where Walt did it for love.

I would love to be in your boat Eric. To have the opportunity to spend so much time in the parks. Everytime I go I look at the positives and all those little things I missed last time. Maybe you've forgotten the "wonder" the parks can invoke because your too busy looking for the bad spots, you know the old "Can't see the forest for the trees" thing. Life is too short to worry/complain about what is gone or changed, enjoy whats there, and be excited for what may come.

[PSUMark]

It really amazes me how much people are still willing to defend WDW's mediocrity. I guess that's how they get away with constantly increasing prices while offering miniscule improvements (and often, as Eric pointed out, offering downgrades).

i think the view around magic kingdom has improved without them and one of the stations is being replaced with the new fantasyland bathrooms / Rapunzel / stroller parking, both desperate upgrades needed in the land.

Except that Rapunzel's tower is a negative in terms of "the view around magic kingdom." Rapunzel's Tower is a very noticeable visual intrusion into Liberty Square/Frontierland where it's clearly out of place.

as for the canoes they were never that great of an attraction to begin with, I can paddle my own canoe whenever i want at my cottage and not have to tow around a bunch of tubby people, who wants to power their own attraction?

I do, for one - you can still ride the canoes at DL and they're a ton of fun. It's something more to do. How is having less to do an improvement on having more to do?

and since when did big thunder mountain ever receive a downgrade?

Just very recently - a lot of the effects that were broken are now permanently turned off (such as the shaking rocks in the earthquake ascent that haven't shaken for years now).

food rocks was replaced by the line for soarin, yes the AA's are still there behind the wall, however that doesn't mean theres enough room for a show to still take place in the area.

And yet there's no show there. How does the potential for a show improve the experience of resort guests?

as for the legend of jack sparrow, you would be crazy not to think that thats not an upgrade over that awful narnia walkthrough that was there before

I definitely agree with goofy donald on this one.

and come on you cant put two red marks for the same attraction (Backlot tour) thats just not even fair.

Well, when the attraction is that awful...

how is adding zebras to the safari a downgrade?

They added zebras, but they've also been slicing away at this attraction's plot and audio animatronics since it opened. What's there is a shell of what was there in 1998 with all animatronics removed. Yes, I'd rather see more real animals than save Little Red, but the two are not mutually exclusive, and the only reason the plot/animatronics were removed is because TDO didn't want to pay to keep it all maintained.

[PSUMark]

The Peoplemover got slightly upgraded with new lights and spiels only a few years ago.

This is true.

Snow White is being replaced by a meet and greet. I don't like it, but it does have a replacement.

Meet and greets are not attractions to anyone outside of TWDC's marketing department.

[DisneySam]

I have two points to make in regards to your post. One, you state that the highlights in red are when changes were made that "people" thought were for the worst. That is strictly conjecture. I'm sure you've read some opinions here or elsewhere regarding certain changes to attractions but that certainly doesn't mean that that is the consensus. It is a tendency that people will only go to the trouble of making their feelings known about something when it is negative and not positive. Since when was the Big Thunder Mountain refresh seen as a change for the worst?

Two, you make comparisons to attractions between Disneyland and WDW. So let's focus on DL for a moment. When was the last major refurbishment to a classic attraction that made any fundamental changes (holiday overlays don't count)? It seems to me that they do refurbishments with about the same frequency as WDW. Classic attractions are just that, classic. If anything I see Disney doing better with restoring attractions to their former glory, Tiki Room and Country Bears being an example. Yes both of these attractions were shortened but at least they were refurbished with a nod towards extending their life for current audiences who don't seem to have the patience for longer shows/rides.

Things change. Disney is dealing with too diverse an audience now to make everything the way everyone will like it. Some people will always prefer the nostalgic while others will always clamor for something new and different. I'm happy to have a mix of both.

[PSUMark]

Walt messed with HIS money, today's "LEADERS" don't. So the committees will decide which way the parks will grow.... or not grow.

Actually, Walt Disney Productions was a public company before Walt even conceived of Disneyland, so it really wasn't his money.

The thread about "Figment" and bringing back the original version.... forget it, it will NEVER HAPPEN, why? Because it was out dated and the new generation was looking for something else.

I actually LOL'ed at this one. Please tell me what generation the current version of Imagination appeals to. It's not faster, better, more advanced, more interactive, etc. It's just... bad. Even among the Defenders of Mediocrity there are few people willing to defend this one. That's why it never has a wait, even during peak season.

So we get the Yeti, the dinsuar rough ride, and fast track. Where they "Disney" type rides? nope, but it's what that generation wanted.

I don't think anyone has a problem with any of those rides per se. It's the fact that nearly all of the effects on Everest and Dinosaur are broken and have been broken now longer than they ever worked. No matter what you're looking for in an attraction, that's not an improvement. The latest refurb of Test Track was an improvement, but not much of one.

Next we see Harry's world, and so they turn to Avatar. Its is all about putting up what will draw the money to your park. At this point WDW still draws a LOT of money to it's park and the investors are happy. Change is always going to come. Either you learn to live with it or you move on. Complaining about it isn't going to help, especially complaining on these message boards.

Actually, I really, really, REALLY want WDW to change and I think Eric does too. The goal is good, substantial, quality change rather than downgrades and cheap facelifts on aging attractions.

I'm sure Disney knows they have some light bulbs out, that some paint is peeling here of there, or that people are slobs and have stained the seats in CoP. I'm sure they took that into consideration when voting for the cut backs so that the investors can collect their money, but that is business. They do it for the money where Walt did it for love.

And that's the problem - TWDC still wants to advertise and charge people like they uphold the standards that the parks built their reputation on. But the parks don't uphold that standard anymore; particularly not WDW.

[Mr Wiggins]

Actually, I really, really, REALLY want WDW to change and I think Eric does too. The goal is good, substantial, quality change rather than downgrades and cheap facelifts on aging attractions.

Bingo. It's unfortunate that so many of WDW's changes in the last couple decades have been such pathetic jokes.

[KingEric]

I want WDW to be the place of my dreams, the place of my childhood hopes. I want to be inspired. I want them to do better.

[danyoung]

They added zebras, but they've also been slicing away at this attraction's plot and audio animatronics since it opened. What's there is a shell of what was there in 1998 with all animatronics removed.

Sorry, but this is just a ridiculous statement. Yeah, the AAs have been removed. But they were never that big a part of the story in the first place. The entire "save the elephants from the poachers" story line was intrusive from day 1, and they've finally decided to take it all out, and bravo to them. To say that the removal of the AAs leaves a shell of an attraction is to ignore the fact that this attraction was always much more about the live animals than it was about robotic elephants.

[KingEric]

The entire "save the elephants from the poachers" story line was intrusive from day 1, and they've finally decided to take it all out, and bravo to them. .

I think this is a subjective change. I know I personally really loved the poacher story line... I loved "SIMBA 1... SIMBA 1... WE CAUGHT THE POACHERS" moment on the ride.

However, I understand why people didn't like, and how it felt forced.

I do realize some of the highlighted red statements are a bit subjective. However, I felt that when story was removed (as an overall metric) or when effects were removed or disabled, it was safe to put it in the red. And that in the end was the reasoning in placing it in the red.