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  1. #31

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    I think it is unfair to paint kids with a brush as has been done here. It isn't that kids have changed in the last decade, but rather that their influences, inspirations, and mentors have. Can you imagine being raised by a game console (regardless of what game was being played)?

  2. #32

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    ^Welcome to generation Z people, and we are in for a lot more of the same, this is just the beginning.

  3. #33

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not My Real Name View Post
    In 1973, my parents bought us season passes to Six Flags Over Texas. I was 15. My brothers were 10 and 9. We went alone. None of us got into any kind of trouble. Times and children have changed.
    This is still allowed. And if this were a COPPA issue it wouldn't, because a sibling is not a parent.

  4. #34

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Can you imagine being raised by a game console (regardless of what game was being played)?
    Before that we were raised in the arcade.. or before that the corner shop.. etc.. which were far more nefarious environments.

    Tolerance and lack of discipline is the common thread today. Even if you want to punish your kid you have to be in fear of people calling you a child abuser, etc.
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  5. #35

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    This is still allowed. And if this were a COPPA issue it wouldn't, because a sibling is not a parent.
    When I said we went alone, i meant exactly that: my brothers and I split up and my two brothers went on the rides and bought and ate lunch on their own. (My brothers hated the way I would scream and cheer on the thrill rides, so they wouldn't ride with me!)
    Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.
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    There should be a sticky thread called "This Day in Disney History." The company has a long history and this would be a good way to acknowledge it. Walt was born 112 years ago; that's quite a chunk of American history and culture.

  6. #36

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not My Real Name View Post
    When I said we went alone, i meant exactly that: my brothers and I split up and my two brothers went on the rides and bought and ate lunch on their own. (My brothers hated the way I would scream and cheer on the thrill rides, so they wouldn't ride with me!)
    Yes, I understood that and its still allowed.

  7. #37

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Before that we were raised in the arcade.. or before that the corner shop.. etc.. which were far more nefarious environments.

    Tolerance and lack of discipline is the common thread today. Even if you want to punish your kid you have to be in fear of people calling you a child abuser, etc.
    My favorite is now those same people are starting to argue that "time out" is too harsh of a psychological punishment, and then scream because juve halls and prisons are filled to the breaking point with more people in "time out."

    more and more I'm thinking that the 45 goals of the Soviet Union to destroy our nation from the inside out is coming true.

    "40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce"

    America compared to 20 years ago is becoming more and more about here and now not long term or anything like that, no one cares about anybody but themselves...I don't think we would be able to repeat some Achievements like the Hoover Dam with today's atmosphere..
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  8. #38

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    I am concerned with the amount of people complaining about the lack of respect of this new generation, especially considering most of the people complaining about it are of the generation that raised this generation. Respect is taught, not inherent, so those who have these bratty kids are the ones to blame as well as the kids.

    I'm 20 something now, and was not a bratty misbehaving child because my parents taught me correctly and respectfully not to misbehave.

    I agree with the idea of not letting loose under 12s (I can bear with the idea of raising that to 14) for safety reasons, but I'm concerned with all the blaming of young people going on in this thread.

  9. #39

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorchio View Post
    I am concerned with the amount of people complaining about the lack of respect of this new generation, especially considering most of the people complaining about it are of the generation that raised this generation. Respect is taught, not inherent, so those who have these bratty kids are the ones to blame as well as the kids.

    I'm 20 something now, and was not a bratty misbehaving child because my parents taught me correctly and respectfully not to misbehave.

    I agree with the idea of not letting loose under 12s (I can bear with the idea of raising that to 14) for safety reasons, but I'm concerned with all the blaming of young people going on in this thread.
    if your 20 something now, your not part of the generation they are complaining about. both of us would be considered generation 'Y'. kids that are on the tail end of our generation leading into and becoming generation z however are certainly a problem, and i definitely am not one who could have raised these kids lol.

    In my opinion its this new sense of entitlement that people have today and kids are now being brought up with combined with the electronics that are causing the problem. while yes being raised by a television, a game console, and a laptop does numb you a bit to the outside world, what hurts the most is the lack of a positive role model to make you a normal human being and not a mild sociopath. If kids saw their parents acting properly or disciplining them for acting improperly on a regular basis, and not in this mild wishy-washy manner you see in the self help programs, then I doubt we would have this issue. As crass as the comparison is its like training a dog. If it pees on the rug and you only punish it half the time for doing it, its not going to understand what its doing wrong and is just going to think your a dick.

  10. #40

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Love how people say 'its all about COPPA' - yet can't answer how Disney's policy actually meets COPPA. They disappear when that is brought up...
    Oh, I didn't disappear, I was simply working. Contrary to some people, I actually have a live outside of MiceChat.

    Anyway, yes, I'm very familiar with what COPPA requires, as I have owned many websites myself.

    Now, here's what happened. Disney's lawyers have looked into COPPA quite deeply. Although it is TRUE that a 14 year old can not serve as a parent or guardian, this information is irrelevant.

    Why? Well, for one thing, we're not actually talking about going online here. We're talking simply about the idea of collecting very basic data in the park, (or online if Mom and Dad set up the information before the trip, which Disney is counting on) and using it in the park, over an internet enabled technology. This area is actually grey when it comes to COPPA, however, the FTC did release a document that acknowledges this area... and this actually applies to limited data collection online too. Remember, COPPA doesn't actually prohibit kids from under 13 going online without parental permission. There are ways to allow it. It's just easier for companies to do things cut and dry (No one under 13 for example on most forums) from a legal perspective.

    Anyway, the FCC document, as long as the information that is collected is quite limited in nature (which it is), allows a company to act "in good faith to protect a child" and to take "precautions against liability." Also in the document, it says that, "reasonable effort" to provide parental notification could in theory include the requirement of having a responsible person (age 14 or over) with the child.

    So, that's it. I think it's quite understandable that Disney wants to cover their bases as much as possible, but not go too far to do something that they can actually be held liable for. (Like checking IDs upon park entry for age requirements, which opens a whole new legal battle for them) Not to mention the fact that park entry is very capacity focused as it is. Adding more requirements would require a lot more people... enough people that it would no longer be a "reasonable" requirement. You get it now?

    Essentially, Disney just did all they could reasonably to comply as much as possible without changing their operation entirely. And this is all, "just in case" if someone actually complains about the data collection. Little 9 year old Timmy wandering off into the MK is very different than Timmy going with his "responsible person" 14 year old brother. (Yes, the old age to enter the park alone was 9 in Florida)
    -Bill

  11. #41

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Oh, I didn't disappear, I was simply working. Contrary to some people, I actually have a live outside of MiceChat.

    Anyway, yes, I'm very familiar with what COPPA requires, as I have owned many websites myself.

    Now, here's what happened. Disney's lawyers have looked into COPPA quite deeply. Although it is TRUE that a 14 year old can not serve as a parent or guardian, this information is irrelevant.

    Why? Well, for one thing, we're not actually talking about going online here
    Which IS the scope of COPPA - COPPA is not some umbrella 'child protection act' - It's scope is explicitly limited to 'online services'. It can not be applied generically to any interactions with children. The only reason it would have relevance in the Disney parks is because the smartphone app, website integration, or online kiosks in the parks. The fact Disney could via it's on internal services collect information on minors is outside the scope of COPPA... unless they fear their own internal systems being considered 'the internet' or an online service.

    I still think the disclosure and notice are handled at the time of transaction of tickets - since you can't get into the parks without tickets, nor be subject to any of Disney's systems without a ticket or someone creating a online profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    We're talking simply about the idea of collecting very basic data in the park, (or online if Mom and Dad set up the information before the trip, which Disney is counting on) and using it in the park, over an internet enabled technology. This area is actually grey when it comes to COPPA, however, the FTC did release a document that acknowledges this area... and this actually applies to limited data collection online too.
    Well if it came from the FTC - it should be filed and easily linked to as well

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Anyway, the FCC document, as long as the information that is collected is quite limited in nature (which it is), allows a company to act "in good faith to protect a child" and to take "precautions against liability." Also in the document, it says that, "reasonable effort" to provide parental notification could in theory include the requirement of having a responsible person (age 14 or over) with the child.
    I've love to see the letter/ruling in question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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  12. #42

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    I've love to see the letter/ruling in question.
    It's a letter...
    Here's the link: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/10/64fr59888.pdf

    And keep in mind, I had to read in between the lines for a lot of this... but then again, Disney's lawyers did the same thing. I'm not making this stuff up just to have fun, it's just stuff I know that happened that led Disney to change the policy.

    It's a very interesting document. The most relevant stuff comes from the last few pages.

    Nothing too ground-breaking, but it should give you an idea of where the thought process came from.
    -Bill

  13. #43

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    At Disneyland I don't know how they are going to enforce this. How can the CM look at the teen and decide if their family is not already in the park let alone they are not allowed for ID or age. I don't know about in Florida but in SoCal its not going to deture anyone. Remember at DL we have 1 million APers and a good hand full are under the age of 15. I did this when I turned 12 I was droped off at the park to just wonder around. The idea of ticket sales do not apply because what if one hands over a pass there is no need to ask for ID or there is no ID given because all that is given is the pass. I don't think Disney will be able to hard froce this at Disneyland.
    Last edited by brianpinsky; 03-31-2013 at 11:30 PM.
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  14. #44

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    It's a letter...
    Here's the link: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/10/64fr59888.pdf

    And keep in mind, I had to read in between the lines for a lot of this... but then again, Disney's lawyers did the same thing. I'm not making this stuff up just to have fun, it's just stuff I know that happened that led Disney to change the policy.

    It's a very interesting document. The most relevant stuff comes from the last few pages.

    Nothing too ground-breaking, but it should give you an idea of where the thought process came from.
    Awesome - thx for that I'll give it a read!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  15. #45

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    Re: Disney bans solo kids under 14 at U.S. parks.

    Bill - did you include the wrong URL? That is simply the FR posting of the original coppa rules from 1999. Not only does it not cover the topic in question, it is outdated information that has been replaced as of dec of last year.

    You must be careful when reading the discussion of comments because the doc is discussing the validity of them and then draws conclusions on how they should influence the language of the final document. I can tell you that the 1999 version and 2012 version have avoided changing or elongating the definition of parent and instead have stuck to "legal guardian" language
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    Am I evil? yes, I am
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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