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  1. #166

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Not to nitpick Disney history, but Joe was not one of the "original" (first generation) Imagineers -- he started with the Company in 1980.



    Also in point of historical fact, Imagineers publicly approve of whatever the Company tells them to approve of. No exceptions.

    None of the above is to be construed as a slight on Joe. However, the logic of "Joe's working on it, therefore he approves of it, therefore it's got to be good" is a non-argument and is no indication of the quality or success of Avatarland.
    I meant one of the original imagineer for Animal Kingdom. From Disney Wiki "Joe Rohde is a Disney Imagineer best known for serving as the leader of the creative team behind Disney's Animal Kingdom from initial conception to the present "

    Joe does seem he is excited to work on the project. Here is a video (go to 1:30).
    Murphy,with that neck, is like E.T. in dragon form

  2. #167

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Well the smurfs don't care about the environment.. nor is the environment or conservation the core of the story. Same with Eo, or other thrown out examples. It's not just 'aliens' but a story about conservation, nature, and how creatures and nature are intertwined.

    I get that it's 'not of this earth' - but I find that less significant than the undertones that DO tie the world of Pandora to the park. The park celebrates animals and nature... and those are the central elements of this story. It fits far better than Finding Nemo the Musical... whose only connection to the park is that the characters happen to be animals.
    I was more responding to the notion that any imaginary animals are a fit for the park. Regarding conservation, see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by danlb_2000 View Post
    Just because not every attractions is about conservation, doesn't make it a myth. Conservation is explored in a number of the attractions in AK:

    - Kilimanjaro Safari had the poaching story line, although that was recently removed.
    - Kali addresses illegal logging and habitat destruction.
    - Habitat Habit! is about conservation.
    - Conservation Station
    Conservation is an important message in several of the attractions, but it is not the central message that ties everything together. That is the myth, that everything is to be about conservation. Its scope is mostly limited to the existing animals category. If anything, the conservation message, due to the prevalence of existing animal attractions, has been considered to be over emphasized.

    Quote Originally Posted by mondo View Post
    I meant one of the original imagineer for Animal Kingdom. From Disney Wiki "Joe Rohde is a Disney Imagineer best known for serving as the leader of the creative team behind Disney's Animal Kingdom from initial conception to the present "

    Joe does seem he is excited to work on the project. Here is a video (go to 1:30).
    Imagineers are not allowed to speak publicly unless they can come across as enthusiastic for their assigned projects. The reports have indicated that Joe Rohde and his team learned about this project with or right before the public announcement.

  3. #168

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    I was more responding to the notion that any imaginary animals are a fit for the park. Regarding conservation, see below.
    I don't think the analogy does anything to exclude Pandora as viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Conservation is an important message in several of the attractions, but it is not the central message that ties everything together. That is the myth, that everything is to be about conservation
    It doesn't have to be the 'central message' to allow it to fit (which of the theme parks have any concrete central message??). The park is overbearing with it's emphasis on habitat, conservation, celebration vs exploitation, education, etc. The theme of 'celebrate not exploit' dominate the parks. Yes, there are pure entertainment elements of the park (everest, etc) but that is far overshadowed by the expanse of the nature aspects of the park. All of those lines weave nicely with the morality tale told in Avatar and what is celebrated about Pandora itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Its scope is mostly limited to the existing animals category. If anything, the conservation message, due to the prevalence of existing animal attractions, has been considered to be over emphasized.
    Over emphasized? Or just deemed not interesting to some customers? I'm confused how it can be over emphasized.. yet people say it does really exist.

    The park has always celebrated nature and animals... besides Pandora being a fictional vs non-fiction... I really don't see the disconnect.
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  4. #169

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Animal kingdom WAS NOT founded on ALIEN SPACE CREATURES and OTHER PLANETS. It was based on real, extinct, and legendary creatures that make their home on earth.

    Fictional creatures and beings of other planets belong in a Science Fiction land, or a movie world from where they came. They do not belong in Animal Kingdom.

    In fact, with Sci Fi and Space Aliens in Tomorrowland, and Sci Fi and Space Aliens in Disney Studios, the LAST THING an earthly believable Animal Kingdom needs is a Sci Fi and Space Alien land.

  5. #170

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Dan View Post
    Can we please drop the Animal Kingdom is about conservation myth? What part of Dinoland USA is about conserving anything?

    In what culture have people ever believed that Pandora or the creatures that live there are real? That is the real message of the Animal Kingdom, the relationship we have with these animals and what they mean to us.
    Animal Kingdom's major theme is "the intrinsic value of nature," as Joe Rohde, the park's lead imagineer, says exactly here and here. That subtext is present throughout the park, even Dinoland USA.

    Conservation is the main conclusion drawn from the basic principle that nature has an intrinsic value, which is why that theme is so prevalent in Animal Kingdom. In attractions like Kali River Rapids and Expedition Everest (and, incidentally, the 2009 movie "Avatar"), that's the moral of the story: nature is intrinsically valuable, nature is supreme. So you have to conserve and respect it: don't kill it, don't interfere with it, don't try to profit off of it (or an excavation dig by a group of young and well-meaning researchers will lead to Chester & Hester's Dino Rama, Restaurant-asaurus brought to you by McDonalds™, and a trip back to the cretaceous period gone awry), etc.

    The point isn't this human-centric view you suggest that it's about how animals have been meaningful and useful to us across time, but to the contrary, that nature, including animals, shouldn't solely be in the service of humans for their use and exploitation because of its inherent value. (Irony: you have to exploit nature to create Avatar and Animal Kingdom)

    You don't have to tell stories that literally unfold here on Earth to convey that message. That's kinda the point of science fiction. As James Cameron says: “...if you have to go four and a half light years to another, made-up planet to appreciate this miracle of the world that we have right here, well, you know what, that’s the wonder of cinema right there, that’s the magic”

    Some might be unenthusiastic about Avatar, or prefer that this theme be expressed through Journey to the Center of the Earth, Beastly Kingdom, or Pocahontas, but that's not enough for people. They have to go as far as to say Avatar has no place in Animal Kingdom, which clearly isn't the case.
    Last edited by WDWorldly; 10-18-2013 at 05:45 AM.

  6. #171

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    ^good post. I was going to post that Rohde talks about the value of nature in at least two videos that I have seen. How is Avatar not about the value of nature ?
    Murphy,with that neck, is like E.T. in dragon form

  7. #172

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by mondo View Post
    ^good post. I was going to post that Rohde talks about the value of nature in at least two videos that I have seen. How is Avatar not about the value of nature ?
    It's a sticky point, but Avatar is *not* about the value of nature - it's about the value of indigenous cultures and uses the respect of the Navii for their flora/fauna as a shortcut through the cultural shorthand of "all native cultures respect the land and are good". The thematic and script similarities to Dances With Wolves are... deep and very prevalent. In both movies the native tribes exploited by the more advanced "others" drives things, and the "respect for nature" that the heroes experience on their journey are a symbol of the tribe, not the driving force behind the movie.
    Last edited by BogLurch; 10-18-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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  8. #173

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    Animal kingdom WAS NOT founded on ALIEN SPACE CREATURES and OTHER PLANETS. It was based on real, extinct, and legendary creatures that make their home on earth.

    Fictional creatures and beings of other planets belong in a Science Fiction land, or a movie world from where they came. They do not belong in Animal Kingdom.

    In fact, with Sci Fi and Space Aliens in Tomorrowland, and Sci Fi and Space Aliens in Disney Studios, the LAST THING an earthly believable Animal Kingdom needs is a Sci Fi and Space Alien land.
    "It was based on real, extinct, and legendary creatures that make their home on earth." If this is the argument, then the alien creatures have a strange resemblance to dragons (earth legend) and horses (actual). The whole story was borrowed from Pocohontas. The alien location is a mere conceit.

    Conceit "a fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor."

  9. #174

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    It's a sticky point, but Avatar is *not* about the value of nature - it's about the value of indigenous cultures and uses the respect of the Navii for their flora/fauna as a shortcut through the cultural shorthand of "all native cultures respect the land and are good". The thematic and script similarities to Dances With Wolves are... deep and very prevalent. In both movies the native tribes exploited by the more advanced "others" drives things, and the "respect for nature" that the heroes experience on their journey are a symbol of the tribe, not the driving force behind the movie.
    Another argument that could be true.

  10. #175

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    It's a sticky point, but Avatar is *not* about the value of nature - it's about the value of indigenous cultures and uses the respect of the Navii for their flora/fauna as a shortcut through the cultural shorthand of "all native cultures respect the land and are good". The thematic and script similarities to Dances With Wolves are... deep and very prevalent. In both movies the native tribes exploited by the more advanced "others" drives things, and the "respect for nature" that the heroes experience on their journey are a symbol of the tribe, not the driving force behind the movie.
    Well said.

    It's ironic that a film in which the antagonists self-servingly spin the reality of what they're doing to the natives as justification of their goal (the mining of minerals) is the same film that Disney is spinning as being about "the intrinsic value of nature... a value greater than money" in the service of their goal (the mining of money).
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-19-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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  11. #176

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    "It was based on real, extinct, and legendary creatures that make their home on earth." If this is the argument, then the alien creatures have a strange resemblance to dragons (earth legend) and horses (actual). The whole story was borrowed from Pocohontas. The alien location is a mere conceit.

    Conceit "a fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor."
    But Avatar is STILL a fictional Space Alien movie and doesn't belong in an earthly Animal Kingdom. Fictional Space Alien Creatures don't belong in Animal Kingdom.

  12. #177

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    But Avatar is STILL a fictional Space Alien movie and doesn't belong in an earthly Animal Kingdom. Fictional Space Alien Creatures don't belong in Animal Kingdom.
    thats all that needs to be said aladdin, this alone should have vetoed this project long ago. if it was going into DHS by all means even though i would question its long term viability, it just doesn't fit there plain and simple and effects the overall thematic scheme of DAK.

  13. #178

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    The thing is, with the exception of the whole Nav'i "hair" linking thing and the Unobtanium, the moon of Pandora is actually a VERY believable alien world. Something that really could exist within our universe. The creatures and plants follow similar patterns to our own on Earth but aren't specifically classifiable as "mammal" or "reptilian" or something of the sort just based on looking on them. The theme of conservation in the film also carries over to the park's secondary theme of conservation. And as we explore space more and more, we'll find we not only have to protect our planet's nature, but the nature of other planets as well.

    Making like an Endor Land or something in AK wouldn't fit because Star Wars, in comparison to Avatar, is fairly unrealistic. There are a significant number of species identifiable as having an exact analogue on Earth. Science does not show us that fuzzy bear people with actual hair/fur would be living on an alien world. Constructs similar to fur or feathers or what have you, sure, but not exactly the same. Not to mention the number of humanoids who look exactly like humans down to average height. Star Wars is a space fantasy with no claims of being realistic sci-fi. Avatar is more hypothetical science. The only creatures that really resemble Earth animals are the Banshees- and their basis in the pteranodons have been extinct for millions of years- and Nav'i, who only barely resemble humans. They're tall, blue, have very different eye-like and nose-like organs, etc.

    Ideally they'd be going with Beastly Kingdome, but with the number of ideas that were stolen by disgruntled Imagineers and used in Universal, that was never going to come to fruition anyway.Also don't forget the impact Avatar had on many people all around the world. So many people were so entranced with the world, loved it so much, that quite a few had to be hospitalized due to feelings of extreme depression or even suicidal thoughts after. I can't think of any fictional world that has EVER inspired such awe.

    I also have to wonder, if Avatar wasn't an already existing IP, would people be turning up their noses at the idea of a realistic Alien world being introduced as part of the Animal Kingdom? Or if the aliens from, say, "Alien Planet" were used instead, you all would be okay with it? If you look hard at it, is it SO bad that the fourth neglected category of creatures - the hypothetical creatures that exist beyond Earth- is being investigated at last?

    If that's the problem, and not the Avatar IP... I'll admit aliens wouldn't really be classed as animals- because animals, scientifically, have a common ancestor on EARTH. But they would be creatures, very similar to our animals on Earth, and to non-scientific people might as well be animals. And hypothetical creatures created by people with scientific backgrounds have just as much right to exist in a park about animals as mythical creatures. No, they don't have as much hold in reality as mythological animals do. However, consider that depending on who you ask, you are always going to get a different rendering of a "dragon", or "unicorn", or, indeed, "yeti". Some people on our planet think the word dragon (or what dragon translates into in their language) means a creature with a human's face, a turtle's shell, and a lion's body. Some people see the qilin, the "Chinese Unicorn" as resembling the common European invisionment of the unicorn, or a more fantastical giraffe (indeed, kirin means both qilin and giraffe in Japanese)... while others see it as a chimera with horse, lion, tiger, fish, and other animal parts.

    Fact is, mythological creatures would be interpreted just as unusually as any alien would. Maybe not to us, but to other people who visit Disney Parks? Certainly.

    Point is... I used to be a detractor of this expansion, but looking at the concept art and the model I just can't help but think... this ISN'T just a cheap cash-in. Disney is going to go all out on this. They will likely go above and beyond what Cameron envisioned and perhaps finally make the most original themed land in Disney World since, well, the opening of the Animal Kingdom itself! They will make you think that these creatures they present really could exist on a planet light years away... and could even be brought to a zoo on our planet, should our air be breathable for them. Plus, that this expansion will effect the park as a whole and encourage people to stay later well...

    It makes me feel super hyped! My only concern is for the animals- will they be fine with this? I mean, the safari is fine, and perhaps even healthier for some animals- quite a few on the safari now are actually nocturnal species, such as the lions. I'm more concerned, I guess, about the gibbons in Asia who are literally right by the river- would they not be upset by the sudden night-time spectacular? I guess as long as they keep pyrotechnics to a minimum its fine, but still, I just hope they don't lose sight of the animals' well being coming first. Like it or not, they do have a partial zoological institution on their hands, and the animals come before the guests in such a case. Always.

  14. #179

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Just putting this out there. Avatar Promotes Seven Profound Environmental Themes
    What Avatar themes can relate to Animal Kingdom?
    Murphy,with that neck, is like E.T. in dragon form

  15. #180

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    I'd love to see where Disney quotes Avatar as being LIMITED to 'this earth'. This is people putting in their own limitations based on an interpretation of the park's past.

    What do they say... past performance may not reflect future...?
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