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  1. #106

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Welcome to a kingdom of animals... real, ancient and imagined: a kingdom ruled by lions, dinosaurs and dragons; a kingdom of balance, harmony and survival; a kingdom we enter to share in the wonder, gaze at the beauty, thrill at the drama, and learn
    To be fair, this was clearly written to give the folks at Disney the widest possible berth with regards to the Animals included in the Kingdom. "...real, ancient and imagined?" So, like basically any animal anywhere from any time or any intellectual property is a fit for Animal Kingdom.

    If we're just going by the plaque, Avatar fits pretty well, covering 'imagined' animals, 'dragons' called banshees, and 'balance, harmony and survival' as basically the thesis of the movies themselves.

    Honestly, the 'haterz' argument loses credence when one falls down this far into the rabbit hole.

    It's one thing to not like Disney using Avatar to pepper up Animal Kingdom. It's quite another to go to this level of pulling strings to make one's point about how sucky Avatar is for DAK.

    I mean, don't like it, but it fits into DAK significantly better than "If You Had Wings" fit into purist-past-glory Tomorrowland (unless the theme was "tomorrow, you will take a plane back home.")

    Don't like the intellectual property, but don't detract from the 'top box office grosser...ever' status when questioning Disney's business choices.

    Don't think the IP has "wings" (heh,) and that Disney is taking too long to build the land, but don't leave out that three sequels are being filmed concurrently and that Disney is timing the opening of Avatarland to the films themselves.

    This cynical, cyclical argument frustrates me. It's one thing to complain about Disney sitting on its hands and raking in cash for the past 10+ years without significant investment into their parks. That's fair and accurate.

    It's quite another to complain when Disney ACTUALLY makes significant investments in their parks. I mean, they're going to drop primo coin into this project. Who cares that it's an intellectual property that perhaps isn't your cup of tea? They're ACTUALLY doing what we've collectively complained that they weren't doing (investment) for the past decade-plus.

    There's certainly an addictive component to this fanbash, where one level isn't enough, and we have to just keep on keepin' on hatin', which is dramatically different that a critique perhaps constructive. And it makes any validity to one's argument lose credence in this context.

  2. #107

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by BlAcKoUt510 View Post
    What?! Now no one wants to reference a park's plaque when it doesn't benefit in their favor. haha

    You're right. Avatar has as much right being there as the proposed Beastly Kingdom everyone wants.
    So the representation of imaginary animals in a Disney park about animals should be limited to just one man's sci-fi movie?
    Toonaspie: I have Asperger's. I like cartoons. Toonaspie!

  3. #108

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    So the representation of imaginary animals in a Disney park about animals should be limited to just one man's sci-fi movie?
    Well, there's also a Yeti.

    ...and this illustrates the point of the addictive nature of hatin' and why, no matter what they build at DAK, no matter what Disney does with the Avatar IP, there's going to be another layer of disgust to peel back and go on hatin' on. Which takes the discourse away from constructive and into some thing cyclical, cynical and ultimately non-productive.

  4. #109

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    And look at how the yeti is presented. The museum teaches us that even if there is not an actual creature, the yeti is still a real and meaningful part of how those who live in the Himalayas engage with their environment.

  5. #110

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by toonaspie View Post
    So the representation of imaginary animals in a Disney park about animals should be limited to just one man's sci-fi movie?
    IMO it can be limited to anything that tells a good story and gives guests unforgettable experiences. That could include a Yeti, Dragon, Aliens whatever honestly to me.

  6. #111

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelieman View Post
    ...Avatarland is the price Disney is paying for not leading the way in entertainment technology development, and they're hoping that Cameron's technology will be adaptable to deliver on a real next-gen experience. Immersive won't even begin to describe it. IN THEORY.

    In practice, this is a trainwreck in the making. They're never going to be able to execute on what's essentially imagineering the Holodeck.
    Exactly. Avatarland is Rent-A-Land, a concept leased from the IP owner by the company that used to be the world's foremost innovator of theme park concepts. It's another example of what happens when you put chief financial officers and strategic planners in charge of a world-famous theme park company: Disney has creatively devolved to the point where all it can do is paint-by-number clones of other people's concepts. Avatarland -- copied from a movie that is itself a copy of other movies -- represents a new nadir.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
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  7. #112

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by Garthilk View Post
    I think there are different measures of success. I think Disney can build a successful area themed to Avatar. Do I think that Avatar is a solid IP? No.

    Avatar IP, maybe worth about 1 billion in revenue.

    Harry Potter IP, maybe worth about 27 billion.

    In terms of sticking power, something that generates 27 times the revenue is going to have a much better staying power in terms branding. Disney typically invests in things that have stickiness in terms of IP. That isn't to say that it couldn't be amazing, or fantastic, just that Avatar doesn't lend itself to the typical IP traits that has created successful brands.

    Example. Star Wars is the kind of IP Disney does well with. Marvel is the kind Disney does well with. I don't see the attributes of Avatar and how it fits. Disney can create amazing spectacular areas and themes and rides. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to spend $500 million.
    If the end result is a "amazing, fantastic" "successful area themed to Avatar," why should the everyday visitor be concerned with how much the IP is worth? The profitability of an IP shouldn't be the only or primary consideration when developing a theme park attraction. If it wasn't taken into consideration at all, there wouldn't be plans for Avatarland and they'd be planning original attractions like Expedition Everest - isn't that what Disney fans want? But movie franchise-based attractions are the name of the game after WWoHP, Animal Kingdom was long overdue for expansion, and it turns out that the theme of the world's all-time highest grossing movie fell in line with AK's tree-hugging ethos. Large areas of theme parks dedicated to single movie franchises is a new phenomenon, so the jury's still out on whether or not people will be interested in them 50 years from now. After the attractiveness of the movie fades, it depends on the quality of the rides. Critter Country and Jurassic Park (Islands of Adventure) are the oldest examples I can think of, and last time I was there, it seemed crowded.
    Last edited by WDWorldly; 10-13-2013 at 06:42 PM.

  8. #113

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Animal Kingdom is for real and imaginary animals, BUT the IMAGINARY animal in Animal Kingdom's original logo is a Dragon, from mythological stories about imaginary animals HERE ON EARTH.

    Mythological stories of mermaids, Pegasus, Unicorns, and other characters from the world of mythology (primarily ancient Rome and Greece) IS THE MISSING PART of Animal Kingdom. And Disney already has some of these character that could be used, from Fantasia and Hercules, and of course The Little Mermaid. And of course Yeti has found places too. BECAUSE the YETI is a possible creature from Earth. There are several other modern mythological creatures, such as the loch ness monster, possibly here on Earth that would make for an interesting addition in the Animal Kingdom.

    However, IF you want a world of OUTER SPACE CREATURES, well, Disney ALREADY had that covered with the Star Wars characters, ever since the late 80ís. And THAT IS the world of outer space aliens and creatures that fans have been craving, ever since the first Star Wars movie hit theaters with a resounding BANG at the Box Office AND Merchandising shelves at local stores in the 70ís. People fell in love with these characters, and touched the hearts of legions of fans, and now a 2nd and even 3rd generation of fans.

    Avatar cannot claim the same. Nowhere are fans clamoring for a 2nd movie of Avatar realm. No one is buying their merchandise, standing on edge for the latest news from Jerry Bruckheimer. Thatís not the case with Star Wars, though. And Now that George Lucas has handed the Disney ownership of Lucas Characters outright, Disney has no need to gamble on Avatar. It a waste of money and resources that would MUCH better be used on something that Disney outright Completely owns! There simply is no need to waste money on Avatar rights.

    As for an Animal Kingdom addition, Outer Space Creatures and Animals DO NOT belong in Animal Kingdom. They are much better suited for a theme park BASED on Movies, which is where both Star Wars and Avatar characters came from. Another option would be a land based on Outer Space. BUT THEY DO NOT belong in the Animal Kingdom.

    Save the Outer Space Aliens and Creatures for a Sci-Fi or Movie land. And Avatar, send them back to the movies to be lost in space.

    Oh, as for IP, it IS inherently IMPORTANT, IF the property is substantially popular. It will create the the initial fan fervor and marketing that cannot complete with an IP that no one cares about. No one really cares about the world of avatar, AND THAT is the telling feature., BUT TONS of FANS care about the Star Wars Universe and the World of Harry Potter. Of course you have to have substance behind the project too. And WW of Harry Potter proved it on BOTH counts.
    Last edited by Aladdin; 10-13-2013 at 05:09 PM.

  9. #114

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    ^ I like to take the approach with Avatar that they will tell a great story that fits in with DAK. To me it is possible using Pandora. Tell a good story and create a great customer experience and to me Disney got it right. Save Star Wars for DHS IMO

  10. #115

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by AaroniusPolonius View Post
    To be fair, this was clearly written to give the folks at Disney the widest possible berth with regards to the Animals included in the Kingdom. "...real, ancient and imagined?" So, like basically any animal anywhere from any time or any intellectual property is a fit for Animal Kingdom.

    If we're just going by the plaque, Avatar fits pretty well, covering 'imagined' animals, 'dragons' called banshees, and 'balance, harmony and survival' as basically the thesis of the movies themselves.

    Honestly, the 'haterz' argument loses credence when one falls down this far into the rabbit hole.

    It's one thing to not like Disney using Avatar to pepper up Animal Kingdom. It's quite another to go to this level of pulling strings to make one's point about how sucky Avatar is for DAK.

    I mean, don't like it, but it fits into DAK significantly better than "If You Had Wings" fit into purist-past-glory Tomorrowland (unless the theme was "tomorrow, you will take a plane back home.")
    Agreed, but even beyond the dedication speech, if you've both seen Avatar and paid attention to the pre-show at Kilamanjaro Safaris, or the narrative of Kali River Rapids, or Rafiki's Planet Watch, etc., it's obvious that Avatar perfectly corresponds with the theme and spirit of the park. People who think Avatar doesn't fit Animal Kingdom's theme misguidedly think the park is literally just about animals.
    It's natazhu
    Last edited by WDWorldly; 10-13-2013 at 07:07 PM.

  11. #116

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by WDWorldly View Post
    Agreed, but even beyond the dedication speech, if you've both seen Avatar and paid attention to the pre-show at Kilamanjaro Safaris, or the narrative of Kali River Rapids, or Rafiki's Planet Watch, etc., it's obvious that Avatar perfectly corresponds with the theme and spirit of the park. People who think Avatar doesn't fit Animal Kingdom's theme misguidedly think the park is literally just about animals.
    It's natazhu
    I really love what you just wrote.

    I personally really like the animals from Star Wars. I like Star Wars movies about a thousand times better than Avatar. For a while I wished that Avatar would be scrapped and a Star Wars animal area be built in DAK. I figured it could be like a zoo on the planet Coruscant (that big city-planet that the Senate was on).

    But Star Wars does not fit Animal Kingdom. It took me a while to get to this point, but I agree that Avatar does indeed fit. I think Avatar is a little too preachy...and that sometimes DAK can be a little preachy with the "humans are bad" and the "Earth is so fragile" stuff. But all zoos and museums do this now, too.

    Avatar and DAK are a perfect fit in terms of messaging. I just hope the "humans are bad" stuff is toned down.

  12. #117

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by danlb_2000 View Post
    What Disney is doing with Avatar is no different then what they did years ago with Star Wars and Indiana Jones.
    Star Wars and Indiana Jones are cultural icons, rich with storytelling and filled with famous and beloved characters. Their scope extends to multiple times and places and they are infinitely adaptable to the theme park medium. They bear no relationship to the flash-in-the-pan eye candy of Avatar, a film filled with characters that no one remembers in a "been there, seen that" world.

    Another key difference is that in terms of innovation, creativity, and the depth and experience of their talent pool, the Disney of today is not remotely the Disney that opened Star Tours in 1987 and Indiana Jones Adventure in 1995.


    Quote Originally Posted by danlb_2000 View Post
    We can debate the merits of Avatar all we want, but based on passed successes it's hard to argue that bringing in outside IP's in inherently a bad things.
    Bringing in outside IPs is inherently a bad thing for a company that has the reputation of being the world leader in theme park innovation and creativity, when it becomes increasingly apparent that paint-by-numbers copying of IPs, owned or leased, is all that they're capable of doing.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-14-2013 at 04:43 AM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
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  13. #118

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Bringing in outside IPs is inherently a bad thing for a company that has the reputation of being the world leader in theme park innovation and creativity,
    That might be more persuasive if everything Disney is famous for wasn't ripped from the Public Domain. Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Alice in Wonderland...

  14. #119

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelieman View Post
    That might be more persuasive if everything Disney is famous for wasn't ripped from the Public Domain. Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Alice in Wonderland...
    Comparing the original literary works to Disney's finished films shows the fallacy of that argument: the films are thoroughly Disney's own in style and personality -- legitimate film adaptations with memorable characters and music. What was "ripped" was virtually every story beat and character concept in Avatar, a film notable for its hackneyed plot and forgettable cardboard characters.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-14-2013 at 05:03 AM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  15. #120

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    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Bringing in outside IPs is inherently a bad thing for a company that has the reputation of being the world leader in theme park innovation and creativity, when it becomes increasingly apparent that paint-by-numbers copying of IPs, owned or leased, is all that they're capable of doing.
    And let us not forget that Disney themselves admit that they brought in George Lucas because it was thought that Disney was in a rut and unable to produce new and exciting content.

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