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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill
    That's just totally false.
    http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthrea...xhibition+Hall
    Go to post #10

    It's definately less hours no matter how you look at it.
    Although I would like to see proof that the parks once stood open until the wee hours of the morning, I would like to say one more thing (and note that I have not done a case study on this). Keeping the park open really late is not in demand. I know that most families would rather go earlier in the morning and leave around 10ish. After that, any families with small children are pretty much gone. Tell me this, (and this isn't a rhetorical question) was it really crowded at 1am (crowded enough to warrent the hours)?

    The only exception might be the Disney-MGM Studios, which now stays quite a bit later because of Fantasmic, which is marketed as a real fireworks show, but in reality can't hold a candle to Sorcery in the Sky in terms of fireworks.
    I've gone though this before somewhere (possibly MiceChat)...Fantasy in the Sky is not/was not/will not be billed as a firework show. On their website, it is under the section Nightime Entertainment. Under the description "Mickey faces off against Disney villains in a lavish spectacular of dancing water, dramatic music, breathtaking animation, lasers, fireworks and surprises." Most of the time, they call it a Nighttime Spectacular.

    I agree with you that firework wise (and possibly even showwise), SitS was much better. The two parts that I think F! beats SitS is the story and the last scene with Mickey on top of the mountain (I think that's so magical).

    -Michael
    “You can design and create, and build the most wonderful place in the world. But it takes people to make the dream a reality.” - Walt Disney

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan-500
    I'm so suprised to hear all of this about WDW's MK... I remember when I went to Disneyland in 2001, something on the ground, and within 10 minutes, it was gone! DL is so clean... I thought since WDW was bigger, they'd be better with cleanliness... Suprise Suprise...
    10 mins is still too long for trash to sit on Disney ground. I have put this to the test at TDL..risking some nasty stares from other guests. The longest it took a Custodial CM to pick up my "discarded trash" was 49 seconds. I kid you NOT, and my G-Fan is my witness to this.

  3. #33

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    Well it was like 10 minutes, and below. But never longer then 10... I was so suprised how clean it was, and how fast it got clean!






    ~ Here you leave today and enter the world of yesterday tomorrow and fantasy
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Pins were moved from EH to UJ. My point is that no pins were added, they were just moved. Anyway, Disney sells pins because they are really popular. Pin Trading days are always crowded and people are always buying/trading pins. Disney is a company, do you think they are going to stop selling something that is in demand (and being bought a lot)?
    Pins may not have been added there, but they did take the place of other higher-end merchandise. And pins recently took over the Frontierland Mercantile and Village Traders in Epcot. There is something called overkill. There's also something called merchantainment. Disney shops are supposed to help tell the story of their location. How exactly do pins celebrate the Old West? Or African art? Disney sells them because people are stupid enough to spend $8-15 (or are they even more?) on pins that cost them a few nickels to manufacture. And the whole trading thing has gone way tacky, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    So, what your saying is that everyone loves to ride Dumbo, but Tricerotops Spin segregates ages? They are the same ride. Just because Walt was around during Dumbo doesn't mean everyone loves to ride it. Also, Space Mountain was born in 1975 in WDW. That ride is certainly not rideable by everyone.
    Dumbo is a classic. For decades it (and the Rocket Jets/Astro Orbiter) were the only spinner type attractions. Both of those appeal mainly to young kids. Triceratops Spin is simply more of the same, without the charm of the original. A cheap, off-the-shelf attraction dropped into DAK.

    And, no, Space Mountain isn't rideable by everyone (especially in its current rough state), but it certainly is a lot closer to that than many of the newer thrill type rides Disney has added.

    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    That's just your personal preference. There are people who prefer mornings and those who prefer evenings. There are many people who prefer waking up really early rather than staying really late. I'm not one of those people, but still, like the saying goes "You can please some people some of the time, but you can't please all people all of the time"

    -Michael
    I agree. And on this I truly give Disney management kudos as they finally have realized there are early birds and night owls. I wouldn't be caught dead in a theme park at 7:30 a.m., but 1 a.m.? Love it! And if the crowds I saw at Epcot and MK this week are any indication, I'm not alone. So now, Disney is truly giving guests of all types a 'perq' for staying at their resorts. At the same time, they at least have pumped up the hours for the general public as well. To me, that's a win-win situation for everyone.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    I have to admit, guests are absolute pigs when they visit. There is no sense of resposibility as they know that someone usually would be right behind them to clean up. It's ashame that this goes on. People, find a trash can, please. I think my wife and I are the only ones that go out of our way to put trash in trash cans and clean up our trays after eating.
    Absolutely, people have ZERO respect for the property or people around them.
    I particularly loved seeing hot dog basket remnants sitting on Main Street sidewalks literally inches away from a trash can. But the old Disney cleaned up a kernel of popcorn before it hit the pavement. Now, you can see the same cup sitting in the same location for four days (I know, I did). That just encourages others to be pigs as well. Walt understood how important this was. I'm paraphrasing here, but he's famous for saying that if Disneyland was kept pristine, guests would want to keep it that way too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    As for strollers, I really don't think much will change. True an eight year old shouldn't be in a stroller, but kids do get tired. Unfortunately, I will be one of the masses this December when we bring our daughter down with us. She'll be two years old. It's a family park. We all have to live with it. But stroller people, please be considerate and expect every single person to get out of your way. AND don't hit the back of my ankles to get my attention.
    If your 8-year-old can't walk by his/her self because they are 'tired', either they have a medical condition or they are being pushed too hard by mom and dad and need to head back to the hotel room. A two-year-old is expected in a stroller, an eight-year-old is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    As for the ATWs (am I correct), it is unfair for someone to say that obese people shouldn't use them. That would be like saying that if you can't walk the parks, you can't visit. Most of the time it is a health issue. How old does one have to be to use one? How handicapped does one need to be to use one? How skinny does one have to be to be able to enjoy the parks? There's too much discrimination in this world, please don't bring it to the parks..
    I have a relative who will likely die soon due to morbid obesity. So I do understand this issue and am not just attacking fat people. I also understand that PCness on the issue is almost as big a problem in combating obesity as food is. There's an epidemic going on. And it's one thing to be handicapped and really need an ECV. But to 'need' one because you are 300 pounds and don't want to exert yourself while heading for the character buffet or ice cream stand is a different matter to me ... that's laziness/mental illness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    I agree that this pin business is getting out of control, but remember that it brings in millions of dollars a year for Mickey's House. I do feel that it is starting to overrun most shops. Remember the olden days where you could only find specific land merchandise in those lands only? Well, to the same with the pins. I don't need to find the same pin in 14 different locations in the same park. It's the thrill of the hunt to find certain merchandise. I remember at the beginning of the beanbag craze that you could only find Song of the South beanbags at the tiny Briar Patch shop. That was fun trying to locate items.
    I do remember. That was part of the unique charm of a WDW visit. You didn't simply get Grumpy tees, Mickey sweatshirts, Pooh plush, pins and princess costumes at EVERY shop. About a decade ago, Disney hired some outside consultants, paid them millions to tell them how to run a business that Disney had been successfully working at for 40 years. The results from a quality standpoint have been disastrous, but maybe Disney makes more $$$ ... I know I just got back from a week and didn't spend a penny on merchandise. I used to regularly drop hundreds of dollars (sometimes more) and I usually visit at least every other month.


    Quote Originally Posted by Herc

    Ending on a good note, I think the castle looks absolutely beautiful. I cannot wait to see it in person. Hopefully I'll have a good time hitting people with my daughter's stroller while my mother-in-law is in her ATW dodging trash after the parade on our way to buying pins every ten feet. Cheers!
    That's the attitude Have a great trip!

  6. #36

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    [QUOTE=askmike1
    Although I would like to see proof that the parks once stood open until the wee hours of the morning, I would like to say one more thing (and note that I have not done a case study on this). Keeping the park open really late is not in demand. I know that most families would rather go earlier in the morning and leave around 10ish. After that, any families with small children are pretty much gone. Tell me this, (and this isn't a rhetorical question) was it really crowded at 1am (crowded enough to warrent the hours)?
    -Michael[/QUOTE]

    Well, I (for a while) used to post past hours from my way-too-vast filing cabinet of old Disney brochures and publications on another Disney site because folks just didn't believe that there was a time when the MK was open all summer from 9-1 (2 on Saturdays) or that the entire EPCOT Center was open from 8-11 regularly during summer and holidays or that even newer parks and water parks used to remain open later. If you'd like, I can (sometime in te next few days) pull up and post some old schedules.

    As to your demand point, I just strongly disagree. I saw how many people were at the MK at 12:45 the other night. Yes, many families with young kids are long gone. But Disney is supposed to be for everyone. When Disney began regularly closing Epcot at 9 (half the park at 7) and the MK (and MGM) at 9 or 10, especially during the miserable hot and humid and LONG Central Fla summers, they effectively destroyed the magic of Disney After Dark.

    The official sunsets in Orlando for much of June and July are between 8:40 and 9:10, so you do the math.

    Many people would go to the parks in the morning, leave after lunch and go to their hotels for a swim, nap, etc ... and not return until 7-9 at night knowing they could see so much in the cooler, less crowded times. In the last decade WDW has actively been working to switch its guests to a morning mindset, with very successful results amongst a large number of guests. But they've also turned off a lot of longtime Disney lovers like myself.
    A lot of people like to sleep in on vacation -- and I'm not talking until 7 or 8 here.

    EMH's at night are a step in the right direction, but only a small one.

    As pointed out by another poster, if Epcot used to be open until 10 or 11 for all guests every night, keeping a third of the park open for three extra hours one night a week isn't really all that impressive. And for off-property guests, well forget about it.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    That post proves that they made the pin area smaller in the Exposition Hall and made it larger in Uptown. But it doesn't really show that it was moved. More pin carts and pin stores have been added in the parks than one can contend with. It's insanity. TOO MANY PINS!!!! AHHHHHHH!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Although I would like to see proof that the parks once stood open until the wee hours of the morning, I would like to say one more thing (and note that I have not done a case study on this). Keeping the park open really late is not in demand. I know that most families would rather go earlier in the morning and leave around 10ish. After that, any families with small children are pretty much gone. Tell me this, (and this isn't a rhetorical question) was it really crowded at 1am (crowded enough to warrent the hours)?
    Proof eh? If I go back to June of 1993... Disney switched over to summer hours on the 12, 13 & 14 of June. Epcot was open from 9am to 10pm with Illuminations every night at 10pm. The Entire Park. The Magic Kingdom was open from 9am to midnight every night, with two showings of SpectroMagic at 9 & 11 and one showing of Fantasy in the Sky Fireworks at 10pm. The Disney-MGM Studios was open everyday from 9am to 10pm, with Sorcery in the Sky Fireworks every night at 9:50pm

    But wait, it gets better. If I go back to the week after Christmas in Dec 1992, Epcot was open from 8am until 11pm every night. The Magic Kingdom was open everyday from 8am until midnight, and the Studios had the same hours as Epcot. On New Year's Eve, Epcot and Magic Kingdom stayed open until 2am... The Studios till 1am.

    Anyway, if you'd like me to scan the Disney Times & Info Guide I have if you don't believe me, I'd be glad to... but i don't really think it's necessary.

    And then, your comment about "no one in the parks at 1am when the MK was open till 3am... ARE YOU KIDDING?! It was VERY Crowded. Right up till about 2:30am. There was a line of kids to meet Mickey & Minnie in the hub till 3:30am. People LOVE the parks at night. Most people I know don't like going in the morning and would rather sleep in on their vacation and stay up late. Why on earth do you think they switched to Evening Extra Magic hours in the first place?! LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    I've gone though this before somewhere (possibly MiceChat)...Fantasy in the Sky is not/was not/will not be billed as a firework show. On their website, it is under the section Nightime Entertainment. Under the description "Mickey faces off against Disney villains in a lavish spectacular of dancing water, dramatic music, breathtaking animation, lasers, fireworks and surprises." Most of the time, they call it a Nighttime Spectacular.
    Directly from the park hours section of the Disneyworld.com site:

    Parades and Fireworks
    Stars and Motor Cars Parade
    5:30pm
    FANTASMIC!
    8:30pm

    And if you ask any Cast Member at WDW about fireworks at the Disney-MGM Studios, they'll tell you Fantasmic! is the fireworks show there.

    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    I agree with you that firework wise (and possibly even showwise), SitS was much better. The two parts that I think F! beats SitS is the story and the last scene with Mickey on top of the mountain (I think that's so magical).
    I agree... though the fireworks need to be closer at the end... like in Disneyland.

    Sorry to make this post sound mean, that's not my intent. I'm only debating with your ideas, not with you.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Although I would like to see proof that the parks once stood open until the wee hours of the morning, I would like to say one more thing (and note that I have not done a case study on this). Keeping the park open really late is not in demand. I know that most families would rather go earlier in the morning and leave around 10ish. After that, any families with small children are pretty much gone. Tell me this, (and this isn't a rhetorical question) was it really crowded at 1am (crowded enough to warrent the hours)?
    Well I have to tell you that it goes back awhile (at least when I visited in the summer months). When the MK had the Main Street Electrical Parade, the show times were 9pm and 11pm with fireworks at 10pm. The parade was over about 11:30 and would you believe, I would say half the attractions still had lines. Some Fantasyland attractions closed earlier, but there was always a line at Space Mountain and the Speedway. It was actually fun staying later. I know that there are many families that visit WDW, but don't forget about the friends who travel together, couples, singles, etc. I would even say families with older children also.

    In my opinion, I don't think the parks are that crowded at closing (except for Epcot since Illuminations closes the park) because people want to beat the crowds getting on the monorail or boats, getting out of the parking lot and onto the highways.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    The motorized wheelchairs are called ECVs (Electric Convenience Vehicles). Also, I agree with pretty much your whole post. One more thing with wheelchairs...the way I see it, the main purpose of the WDW wheelchairs is for people who have a hard time walking long distances. If a person needed a wheelchair for disability reasons, they'd most likely have their own.
    Thanks for the clarification on ECVs. I couldn't remember what it was from a previous post. Remember that it costs to rent one of these for the day. It is alot of money, so I would assume that only people that really needed one would get one. When my mother-in-law found out how much the ECVs were (76 at the time, tried to walk it, but just couldn't do it by day 3) she decided to get the wheelchair [it builds your leg and arm muscles while pushing ].

  10. #40

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    The fact hours have been cut waaaaaaaaay back is irrefutable fact. I think many people that argue the point simply never visited the parks before the mid-late 90s when the cutbacks really hit big. These are the folks who think the MK is open late if it stays open until 9 or 10.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill
    Directly from the park hours section of the Disneyworld.com site:

    Parades and Fireworks
    Stars and Motor Cars Parade
    5:30pm
    FANTASMIC!
    8:30pm
    Directly from Disney-MGM Studios entertainment section...
    Nighttime Entertainment
    Fantasmic!
    From the Fantasmic page....
    Category: Nighttime Entertainment


    Just because I was bored, I emailed Disney as to what Fantasmic would officially be classified as. If and (hopefully) when I get a response, I will post it.

    For all the people who said they could post park hours, you don't have to...I believe you.
    But to 'need' one because you are 300 pounds and don't want to exert yourself while heading for the character buffet or ice cream stand is a different matter to me ... that's laziness/mental illness.
    Many people, including the obese and elderly, can't walk through the miles of pathways we call Disney World. World showcase promenade alone is 1.3 miles. This is what the wheelchairs are for. 99% of the time, if a person had a handicap that required a wheelchair, they already be in one.
    Dumbo is a classic. For decades it (and the Rocket Jets/Astro Orbiter) were the only spinner type attractions. Both of those appeal mainly to young kids. Triceratops Spin is simply more of the same, without the charm of the original. A cheap, off-the-shelf attraction dropped into DAK.

    And, no, Space Mountain isn't rideable by everyone (especially in its current rough state), but it certainly is a lot closer to that than many of the newer thrill type rides Disney has added.
    There is no difference between Dumbo and TS. Despite what they are based on, the ride is the same. Even though one opened in the 50s and the other half a century later, the age appeal is the same. Likewise, Space Mountain has a 44" height limit, while Test Track (which goes about 40mph faster) only has a 40" limit. Once again, Disney doesn't segregate audiences any more today then they did 30 years ago.

    As to your demand point, I just strongly disagree. I saw how many people were at the MK at 12:45 the other night. Yes, many families with young kids are long gone. But Disney is supposed to be for everyone.
    I was so hoping someone would say this. Disney is for everyone! That means Disney should cater to thrill lovers, young kids, babies, etc.

    -Michael
    “You can design and create, and build the most wonderful place in the world. But it takes people to make the dream a reality.” - Walt Disney

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Directly from Disney-MGM Studios entertainment section...
    Nighttime Entertainment
    Fantasmic!
    From the Fantasmic page....
    Category: Nighttime Entertainment
    perhaps, but fireworks shows are a type of Nighttime Entertainment, are they not? And the website divides the attractions into some really odd things...

    Plus park time guides and and such all list Fantasmic! as a fireworks show.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    I have a relative who will likely die soon due to morbid obesity. So I do understand this issue and am not just attacking fat people.
    I would like to believe this, but if you truly understood the issue you wouldn't say something as flippant and stereotypical as:

    don't want to exert yourself while heading for the character buffet or ice cream stand
    The point is that even most people who don't mind a little physical effort to get around may get worn out by the parks. They are pretty darn big. That's why these motorized things exist to begin with. If a guest was so lazy, they'd use one all the time.

    I don't know if you've just never been on a trip where someone needs to sit down at a bench regularly. Or perhaps you've just never been on a trip where one person doesn't have the stamina that the rest of their party does, and often has to tell the others in their party (including the hyperactive kids who want to get to their favorite rides like they're going to be torn down in an hour) to just go on without them and miss out on the family fun.

    That's just not very fun. And while maybe you can make a good case by promoting ways to combat obesity, people generally aren't looking at fighting obesity and other life issues while they're on their VACATION.

  14. #44

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    Disneyland IS very good with cleaning things up. Most recently, I always see those custodians in the white outfits shuffling through people in line sweeping up things and emptying out trash cans. I'm suprised with Disney World, however.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    I go to the parks because I love them. But I'm glad you feel you know me enough to judge me as someone who only 'nitpicks.' I almost always have fun. And, when I don't it's usually do to people -- other guests, awful CMs or even my traveling companions.

    I probably shouldn't even bother responding to you because my feeling is you're just looking to bait me, but that would be rushing to judgment too. I have a very obervant and discerning eye. I know all about Disney standards for show quality, cleanliness, safety etc ... You've made 28 trips? Sounds impressive. I have made hundreds over the past 30 years. I think I got you beat. I think my perspective has a bit more weight because of that.

    I don't tell 'tall tales.' And as I said before, evidentally you missed that in my post, that I don't believe you give up an old friend you love just because they may be going through some tough times. There are many ways to bring about positive change at WDW. If I keep my money from Disney, it's just a drop in the bucket. There are plenty of folks out there that don't mind Disney's lowered standards aka the WalMarting of the parks, and will spend their money instead. No, I have no intention of stop visiting parks I love just because Disney wants to see how low it can go.

    Could you be anymore right?!?!?! And that line...the WalMarting of Disney! You should film a documentary! Pure genius

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