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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Although I would like to see proof that the parks once stood open until the wee hours of the morning, I would like to say one more thing (and note that I have not done a case study on this). Keeping the park open really late is not in demand. I know that most families would rather go earlier in the morning and leave around 10ish. After that, any families with small children are pretty much gone. Tell me this, (and this isn't a rhetorical question) was it really crowded at 1am (crowded enough to warrent the hours)?
    Anyone over the age of 25, no offense, would know that the parks were open much longer in the 70s 80s and even a little longer in the 90s. This is a good example of a real problem in the Disney Universe. Young fans (with all due respect) just don't know that the standards were once much higher (the same is true for custodial, maintenance and the investment in new attractions). The parks used to open early and stay open late. The fact is today WDW offers less product for more money.

    Michael, to argue that some families with small children are gone late at night shows that you haven't ever closed the park as a CM. First of all you have hundreds of guests from other time zones that just don't care it's Midnight in Florida, because they woke up that morning in Seattle and it's only 9 PM there. Also, kids take naps in the middle of the day just so they can stay up late at WDW (mine do), and finally families with small kids are not the only people that come to the parks.

    The bottom line is Disney used to work to exceed guest expectations, not base it's decision on "most" of the audience wanting something or another. You can target 80% of your guests with operating hours, pin trading and attraction content, but if you alienate 20% of your audience by failing to meet their expectations you might just find that you have a 20% decrease in attendance. The result, you have to raise your prices to make up for the loss of capital and then you are catering to the rich and the ignorant, a business model which wont last long, as it is severely effected by fluctuations in the economy.
    Last edited by Mr. Eggz; 04-23-2005 at 11:16 AM.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyMickey
    Disneyland IS very good with cleaning things up. Most recently, I always see those custodians in the white outfits shuffling through people in line sweeping up things and emptying out trash cans. I'm suprised with Disney World, however.
    DL has always had a better CM crew than those currently found at WDW. Everytime I have been to DL, the Cms there are friendlier and more efficient than their WDW counterparts.

  3. #48

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    ECV's

    When my Dad was in his 60's and 70's he wasn't considered disabled nor did he need a wheelchair for his normal daily life. He wasn't obese. However, he couldn't possibly spend 8 to 10 hours on his feet at a theme park. I know some people must have noticed he could get off of it to get on certain rides and wondered that he didn't seemed handicapped but if he had to do all the walking he couldn't have lasted more than a couple of hours. His choice was the ECV or not go at all.

    Edited to add-

    He had bad knees and the prolonged walking made them give out.
    Last edited by xzoocrew; 04-23-2005 at 02:08 PM.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    I was so hoping someone would say this. Disney is for everyone! That means Disney should cater to thrill lovers, young kids, babies, etc.

    -Michael
    Yes. And Disney USED to realize that by building attractions that almost everyone could ride/experience (things like Pirates, Peter Pan, Country Bears, any of the original EPCOT Center attractions).

    You won't convince me that things like RnRC, Playhouse Disney, any of the playgrounds that have popped up, character meet and greets etc.. have that kind of appeal

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMania
    I would like to believe this, but if you truly understood the issue you wouldn't say something as flippant and stereotypical as:


    The point is that even most people who don't mind a little physical effort to get around may get worn out by the parks. They are pretty darn big. That's why these motorized things exist to begin with. If a guest was so lazy, they'd use one all the time.

    I don't know if you've just never been on a trip where someone needs to sit down at a bench regularly. Or perhaps you've just never been on a trip where one person doesn't have the stamina that the rest of their party does, and often has to tell the others in their party (including the hyperactive kids who want to get to their favorite rides like they're going to be torn down in an hour) to just go on without them and miss out on the family fun.

    That's just not very fun. And while maybe you can make a good case by promoting ways to combat obesity, people generally aren't looking at fighting obesity and other life issues while they're on their VACATION.

    First off, I DO understand morbid obesity (and just garden variety weight issues like needing to drop 25 pounds, which I do). I just think political correctness has run amuck with this issue like many others.

    I HAVE been on trips with people like you describe, including one with the relative I mentioned, who to his credit walked his entire time.

    Vacation is the perfect time to start on a new healthy lifestyle. I spent a lot of time working out last week at Disney in my resort's fitness center. I probably ate too much as well, but again, I don't suffer from morbid obesity.

    I stand on my earlier point. Too many fat, lazy people use ECVs and wheelchairs because they don't want to walk. They'd rather take the easy way out. Yes, that sounds harsh. But often the truth is.

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by neuhickman79
    Could you be anymore right?!?!?! And that line...the WalMarting of Disney! You should film a documentary! Pure genius
    Wow. I'm blushing!

    But I do like to think when it comes to Disney, I have a very good idea how things are run vs. the way they should be.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Eggz
    Anyone over the age of 25, no offense, would know that the parks were open much longer in the 70s 80s and even a little longer in the 90s. This is a good example of a real problem in the Disney Universe. Young fans (with all due respect) just don't know that the standards were once much higher (the same is true for custodial, maintenance and the investment in new attractions). The parks used to open early and stay open late. The fact is today WDW offers less product for more money.
    YES! YES! YES! I am so tired of folks who never visited in the good old days (which I say were pre-1995) thinking the WDW of today is anything close to what it was.

    WDW management, PR, and marketing have all been pushing a 'Bigger is Better' agenda when it is far from it. Yes, DAK is a wonderful park but Disney-MGM is an empty wasteland. Yes, Mission Space is cool but it doesn't equal letting the Living Seas decay or Wonders of Life in mothballs. Yes, E-Ride Nights made some folks feel 'special' but they were paying $12 extra for a tiny fraction of what EVERYONE got INCLUDED with their admission during summer, holiday periods and weekends. Yes, it's nice that WDW can now offer rooms for $49 a night to appeal to more people, but it doesn't mitigate the fact that the deluxe resorts no longer offer a premium product (NO TRIPLE SHEETING at DAK LODGE!?!?!) I could ramble on another few hours about this. But the bottom line is perspective counts for a lot (just like I'd much rather have a doctor that's operated on hundreds of patients work on me vs. someone who just came out of med school), and I am very tired of defending the fact I KNOW WDW was better in many aspects before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Eggz
    Michael, to argue that some families with small children are gone late at night shows that you haven't ever closed the park as a CM. First of all you have hundreds of guests from other time zones that just don't care it's Midnight in Florida, because they woke up that morning in Seattle and it's only 9 PM there. Also, kids take naps in the middle of the day just so they can stay up late at WDW (mine do), and finally families with small kids are not the only people that come to the parks..
    Great point. And 100% accurate. I saw plenty of young kids having a great time after midnight at the MK last week, just like I used to when the parks were ope long enough to allow for a rest period/nap in the daytime or even a late start to the day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Eggz
    The bottom line is Disney used to work to exceed guest expectations, not base it's decision on "most" of the audience wanting something or another. You can target 80% of your guests with operating hours, pin trading and attraction content, but if you alienate 20% of your audience by failing to meet their expectations you might just find that you have a 20% decrease in attendance. The result, you have to raise your prices to make up for the loss of capital and then you are catering to the rich and the ignorant, a business model which wont last long, as it is severely effected by fluctuations in the economy.
    I would argue that Disney now shoots for the lowest possible target. Disney doesn't want guests like me (BTW, I've had an AP since they started in 1982) because we know too much (he sez in an over-the-top 'B' movie Nazi voice).
    We are the ones who are treated with disdain and disrespect when we complain or bring something to management's attention. They want ignorant guests, preferably those who didn't regularly visit the resort pre-95. They want folks that shop at WalMart and the Gap, get their haircuts at SuperCuts, and think a night on the town is a movie and dinner at the Olive Garden.

    That ain't me.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLFAN
    DL has always had a better CM crew than those currently found at WDW. Everytime I have been to DL, the Cms there are friendlier and more efficient than their WDW counterparts.
    They still do. It's amazing how I have to truly go out of my way to find something on the ground at DL at 11 p.m., but at WDW you can find it almost anywhere at anytime. I have been to DL on NYE, July 4th, Christmas and never seen the amount of trash that I saw on Main Street a few nights last week

    Let's not even talk about the filthy walkways that Al Weiss says are pressure-cleaned every night.

  9. #54

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    Yes. And Disney USED to realize that by building attractions that almost everyone could ride/experience (things like Pirates, Peter Pan, Country Bears, any of the original EPCOT Center attractions).

    You won't convince me that things like RnRC, Playhouse Disney, any of the playgrounds that have popped up, character meet and greets etc.. have that kind of appeal
    You're missing my point. Disney should cater to everyone, but not every ride should be catered to everyone. Walt knew this and that's why he built Dumbo and such rides. RnRC caters to thrill lovers. Playhouse Disney appeals to the kids.
    I HAVE been on trips with people like you describe, including one with the relative I mentioned, who to his credit walked his entire time.
    Not everyone is like your relative. Some people CAN'T walk these distances. Some elderly people have bone problems and find it hard to walk these distances. If it weren't for these wheelchairs and ECVs, many people wouldn't be able to witness everything in DL.
    “You can design and create, and build the most wonderful place in the world. But it takes people to make the dream a reality.” - Walt Disney

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    You're missing my point. Disney should cater to everyone, but not every ride should be catered to everyone. Walt knew this and that's why he built Dumbo and such rides. RnRC caters to thrill lovers. Playhouse Disney appeals to the kids..
    No, I didn't miss it. I just disagree. The VAST majority of WDW attractions built in the past decade appeal to one group (either thrill-seekers or the stroller brigade) while this wasn't true nearly as much in the past (yes, there were exceptions, but they were few and far between).

    Dumbo even, it could be argued easily is unique or 'magical' because it was the first spinner type ride at DL and you were riding an elephant. That's why so many adults and teens love it too. But Aladdin's Carpets? Or Trike Spin?
    Uhm ... no. could be because they are the same ride. What did Walt say about never doing sequels 'You can't top pigs with pigs.'

    And while I usually hate the 'What Would Walt Do?' line of thinking, my opinion is he would hate both Playhouse Disney (a show JUST for small children with no unique effects and seating ON THE FLOOR) and RnRC (a very quick thrill and then a very, boring, uninspired ride, although I do believe he'd love the technology and likely be figuring out how to use it in a truly magical experience.)


    Quote Originally Posted by askmike1
    Not everyone is like your relative. Some people CAN'T walk these distances. Some elderly people have bone problems and find it hard to walk these distances. If it weren't for these wheelchairs and ECVs, many people wouldn't be able to witness everything in DL.
    I agree completely. I don't believe in absolutes. I would NEVER say that everyone that uses ECV's are doing so because they are lazy. What I will say is a lot of people use them because they simply don't want to exert themselves.

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    Dumbo even, it could be argued easily is unique or 'magical' because it was the first spinner type ride at DL and you were riding an elephant. That's why so many adults and teens love it too. But Aladdin's Carpets? Or Trike Spin?
    Uhm ... no. could be because they are the same ride. What did Walt say about never doing sequels 'You can't top pigs with pigs.'
    Hmm, consulting Disneyland history... the Rocket Jets were built on March 19th, 1956. In less than a year, a sequel to Dumbo has been born. If anything, I think Magic Carpets and Tricerops Spin are better because a) they allow up/down and foward/backwards movement and b) provide 2 rows per car. Astro Orbiter has horrible seating, and Dumbo doesn't appeal to many people over the age of 12 (besides parents). I would say that Tricerotops Spin is a modern day improved dumbo, and Magic Carpets is a modern day improved Astro Orbiter (appealing to more people than Dumbo/Tricerotops Spin)

    -Michael
    “You can design and create, and build the most wonderful place in the world. But it takes people to make the dream a reality.” - Walt Disney

  12. #57

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    If you feel that AMC's and TS are better attractions than Dumbo or Astro Orbiter, that's fine. I feel they shouldn't have been installed (especially the former). But the fact remains there is nothing special, unique or Disneyesque about the new additions. They are cheap. They are basic. They certainly aren't anything you can't get at a local county fair.

    Also, I wholeheartedly disagree about Dumbo only appealing to young kids, but I;m not going to argue that back and forth.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    YES! YES! YES! I am so tired of folks who never visited in the good old days (which I say were pre-1995) thinking the WDW of today is anything close to what it was.
    You are so right. Been going since August 72. The thrill was there. The fantasy was there. The cleanliness was there. The castmembers went way beyond one's expectations. The part opened early and stayed opened til 1am. Does anyone remember waiting on World Drive for an hour or two just to get into the parking lot? When you had to call for reservations to the Poly or Comtemp a whole year in advance? Mind you there are more parks now and alot more on-property resorts, but the fact is that there are more people now going to the WDW Resort.

    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    WDW management, PR, and marketing have all been pushing a 'Bigger is Better' agenda when it is far from it. ...Yes, E-Ride Nights made some folks feel 'special' but they were paying $12 extra for a tiny fraction of what EVERYONE got INCLUDED with their admission during summer, holiday periods and weekends.
    Why on this green earth would anyone pay an extra $12 for a few more hours in the park on top of the high price of a regular admission ticket? That's just crazy. Resort guests used to get in really early and only Main Street and Tomorrowland were opened. They would even stay opened past 1am on certain nights. Now that was fun. AND it was included in my admission price.
    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    Yes, it's nice that WDW can now offer rooms for $49 a night to appeal to more people, but it doesn't mitigate the fact that the deluxe resorts no longer offer a premium product (NO TRIPLE SHEETING at DAK LODGE!?!?!) ...and I am very tired of defending the fact I KNOW WDW was better in many aspects before...
    Don't ever get tired of defending what you know was right and was better. Nowadays, people take for granted that if you are treated badly or Disney doesn't put on a good show, this is the way it always was. AND it wasn't. Deluxe resorts used to be just that, Deluxe. There was a certain level of service that was expected and you did receive it. Now that level just isn't there....Unless you want to pay extra for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by WDW1974
    I would argue that Disney now shoots for the lowest possible target. Disney doesn't want guests like me (BTW, I've had an AP since they started in 1982) because we know too much (he sez in an over-the-top 'B' movie Nazi voice).
    We are the ones who are treated with disdain and disrespect when we complain or bring something to management's attention. They want ignorant guests, preferably those who didn't regularly visit the resort pre-95. They want folks that shop at WalMart and the Gap, get their haircuts at SuperCuts, and think a night on the town is a movie and dinner at the Olive Garden.

    That ain't me.
    Here's why. The "outside world" is so close and it is too easy to get there. Folks on a budget and a car would go out to Crossroads or 192 and pick up fast food or stop at TGIFs or Applebees. It's ashame that Disney is buying into this attitude and servicing us the same way. As for the Walmarting of Disney, it's too bad that again Disney is buying into the folks who want one-stop shopping. I love the Emporium, but I don't want it to carry every single item that the other smaller shops are selling in the different lands. And if this pin crase doesn't die down, hopefully Disney will have enough sense to make the former 20,000 Leagues are into Mickey's Pin Land and Lanyard Factory. Then every single pin ever made can be found there. That would free up all the smaller establishments to go back and feature uniquely themed merchandise. And please, I love that McDonalds is a sponsor, but I don't feel that it is necessary to have the fries in the parks. You're right, next thing you know, the Main Street Barber Shop WILL be sponsored by SuperCuts.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    You are so right. Been going since August 72. The thrill was there. The fantasy was there. The cleanliness was there. The castmembers went way beyond one's expectations. The part opened early and stayed opened til 1am. Does anyone remember waiting on World Drive for an hour or two just to get into the parking lot? When you had to call for reservations to the Poly or Comtemp a whole year in advance? Mind you there are more parks now and alot more on-property resorts, but the fact is that there are more people now going to the WDW Resort.
    Well, you've got two years on me! But I do remember waiting on World Drive as it was the only public road on property back then. Imagine a WDW without a single traffic light, garrish billboards or badly faded purple signs. I remember waiting in line an hour just to buy tickets at Christmas time '74. And you had to book often months (if not years in advance) up until the early 90s when they began the vast development of resorts (overbuilding IMHO).


    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    Why on this green earth would anyone pay an extra $12 for a few more hours in the park on top of the high price of a regular admission ticket? That's just crazy. Resort guests used to get in really early and only Main Street and Tomorrowland were opened. They would even stay opened past 1am on certain nights. Now that was fun. AND it was included in my admission price.
    Because people are like sheep. They are told they will be 'special guests' as WDW resort guests and will have 'exclusive' time in the MK. They are too stupid to stop and think about what they are getting. They tried them at DL, when the senior VP under Cynthia had come from WDW and thought SoCal's more cultured, discerning, urban visitors would jump at the chance stay 'after hours.' After a few nights with less than 1,000 folks in the park, they realized the folly of their ways. I truly hope E-Nights are dead, dead, dead with EMH's at night, but who knows?


    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    Don't ever get tired of defending what you know was right and was better. Nowadays, people take for granted that if you are treated badly or Disney doesn't put on a good show, this is the way it always was. AND it wasn't. Deluxe resorts used to be just that, Deluxe. There was a certain level of service that was expected and you did receive it. Now that level just isn't there....Unless you want to pay extra for it.
    Well, they have a different kind of guest today. One more likely to show up for dinner at Jiko in a tank top with screaming kids (who probably left something in the pool) looking for mac'n'cheese. I actually saw an ADULT at Boma last week (one of the best buffets anyWHERE) spend $26 to eat (I kid you not) chicken fingers and fries!!!!! That is the typical WDW guest today.

    Look at the way guests treat the WDW lobbys ... they run around them half naked, put shoes on the tables, leave food and drinks, let their kids run wild ... it's a chicken and egg situation, I guess.

    Last week, I was tired of seeing a pile of pool towels left near the outside corridor entrance near my room. After three days with the towels still there, I picked up the two dozen towels and dropped them in the middle of the walkway. Maybe someone got it, I'm not sure. But they were removed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Herc
    Here's why. The "outside world" is so close and it is too easy to get there. Folks on a budget and a car would go out to Crossroads or 192 and pick up fast food or stop at TGIFs or Applebees. It's ashame that Disney is buying into this attitude and servicing us the same way. As for the Walmarting of Disney, it's too bad that again Disney is buying into the folks who want one-stop shopping. I love the Emporium, but I don't want it to carry every single item that the other smaller shops are selling in the different lands. And if this pin crase doesn't die down, hopefully Disney will have enough sense to make the former 20,000 Leagues are into Mickey's Pin Land and Lanyard Factory. Then every single pin ever made can be found there. That would free up all the smaller establishments to go back and feature uniquely themed merchandise. And please, I love that McDonalds is a sponsor, but I don't feel that it is necessary to have the fries in the parks. You're right, next thing you know, the Main Street Barber Shop WILL be sponsored by SuperCuts.
    So true, so true.

  15. #60

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    Greetings friends! Welcome to the...oh. Welcome to the funnest place on earth, the Magic Playplace Kingdom...

    Visit the Emporium... sponsored by Wal-Mart
    Visit Dumbo, err, I mean Gecko the flying gecko... sponsored by Geico
    Visit the Jungle Cruise... sponsored by the Ron Jon Surf Shop on Coco Beach (open 24hrs)
    Visit Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead men tell no tales... based on the box-office smash
    Visit the Haunted Mansion... sponsored by Toale Brothers
    Visit Honda Mountain... sponsored by Honda
    And don't forget to see Disney's General Electric Parade!

    All included with your admission! Tickets printed on Brawny paper towels.

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